Who/what are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

jgr

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That is one and the same !!!


Its says it right these in Dan. 9:27, you are just one of the few that don't get it.


The People (Romans) of the prince that is to come (Little horn that ARISES out of the Fourth Beast/Rome)

Look at the Bible like this Dan. 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (of the prince that shall come) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

{{{ So look at it like I have written it above via an inset notation so to speak. Take that away and then read it. Where people is at, just place Romans like this.........Dan. 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the Romans shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined..........Do you get it now? The OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME is something I would place in parenthesis like this. (OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME)

Parenthesis literally means “to put beside” from the Greek roots par-, -en and thesis. Grammatically, they behave kind of like commas and serve to set aside a subordinate part of the sentence or discussion.

So today we would place that section in parenthesis and it would be understood that we were pointing towards the next passage/paragraph/verse here, See Below.}}}

27 And he (prince from ABOVE) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You seem to t be able to recognize this prince being spoken of is the END TIME Little Horn. Jesus is dead by this time. The prince has a SMALL LETTER. In Daniel ch. 8 when its speaking about Jesus the P in Prince is capitalized because its the Lord Jesus being spoken of. SEE BELOW Capital P !

Dan. 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince (JESUS...Capital P) of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

By getting it all wrong you have to change the 69 Week death of Christ to after 69 1/2 weeks. When you have to manipulate Scriptures ti make it fit its wrong brother.

Capitalization of the "p" in prince is inconsistent and therefore unreliable.

Daniel 8:11
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

The prince is God Himself.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

The prince is Christ Himself.


There is only one (P)(p)rince in Daniel 9. It is Messiah. He is the only one identified as a
(P)(p)rince in the passage.

There are two perspectives regarding the people of the prince, both applicable:

1. The pagan Roman armies, which were God's instruments of judgment and destruction. In similar fashion elsewhere, e.g. Jeremiah 43:10-13, God described the pagan Nebuchadnezzar, whom He chose as an instrument of judgment and destruction, as being "My servant."
2. The Jews themselves, whom Josephus documents as being responsible for much of the carnage that occurred: "I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world." Contemporary Jews concur:

"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."
 
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Douggg

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Daniel 8:11
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

The prince is God Himself.
More specifically - Jesus. Because of what it says in Daniel 8:25

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
 
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Douggg

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There are two perspectives regarding the people of the prince, both applicable:

1. The pagan Roman armies, which were God's instruments of judgment and destruction. In similar fashion elsewhere, e.g. Jeremiah 43:10-13, God described the pagan Nebuchadnezzar, whom He chose as an instrument of judgment and destruction, as being "My servant."
2. The Jews themselves, whom Josephus documents as being responsible for much of the carnage that occurred: "I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world." Contemporary Jews concur:

"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."
The problem is that interpretation of the great tribulation is that interpretation is not global to test everyone alive on the planet.
 
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David Kent

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The prince to come is the Anti-Christ, Jesus is dead by this time.

The scripture doesn't say that is antichrist. It seems amazing to me that so many are so blind that they can't see that the prince did come and his people did destroy the city and the temple and desolate both. #

Daniel 9 prophecy is fulfilled. Other Daniel prophecies are end time but that is NOT.

You are a false teacher.
 
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Douggg

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The scripture doesn't say that is antichrist. It seems amazing to me that so many are so blind that they can't see that the prince did come and his people did destroy the city and the temple and desolate both. #

Daniel 9 prophecy is fulfilled. Other Daniel prophecies are end time but that is NOT.

You are a false teacher.
It is not spelled out in the text who the prince who shall come is. It also does not spell out in the text who the messiah is who is cut off, not for himself.

It is up to us to understand and figure it out. The text of the new testament is where the answers are. From the text of the new testament Jesus is the messiah cutoff not for himself. The prince who shall come, who confirms the covenant for 7 years, is the another the Jews will take to be their King - someone God did not send, but coming in his own name. The new testament does not prophesy Titus.

The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is in the bible what it is. Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Daniel 9:27 the confirming of the covenant for 7 years by the prince who shall come has not been fulfilled yet, because the 7 years, the apocalypse, have yet to begin.
 
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Revealing Times

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The scripture doesn't say that is antichrist. It seems amazing to me that so many are so blind that they can't see that the prince did come and his people did destroy the city and the temple and desolate both. #

Daniel 9 prophecy is fulfilled. Other Daniel prophecies are end time but that is NOT.

You are a false teacher.
You just do not understand the scriptures. Of course you are on the outs with 90 percent of Christendom on this matter.
 
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jgr

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The problem is that interpretation of the great tribulation is that interpretation is not global to test everyone alive on the planet.
"Tribulation" and "global" are neither explicit nor implicit in this passage.

You don't believe the Jews' own analysis of their own history?
 
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Douggg

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"Tribulation" and "global" are neither explicit nor implicit in this passage.

You don't believe the Jews' own analysis of their own history?
The Jews' own analysis of their own history is that Jesus did rise out of the grave, and that they did not go into exile for the past two thousand years because they rejected the gospel preached to them following Jesus's resurrection. So my answer is "no".
 
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David Kent

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It is not spelled out in the text who the prince who shall come is. It also does not spell out in the text who the messiah is who is cut off, not for himself.

It is up to us to understand and figure it out. The text of the new testament is where the answers are. From the text of the new testament Jesus is the messiah cutoff not for himself. The prince who shall come, who confirms the covenant for 7 years, is the another the Jews will take to be their King - someone God did not send, but coming in his own name. The new testament does not prophesy Titus.

The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is in the bible what it is. Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Daniel 9:27 the confirming of the covenant for 7 years by the prince who shall come has not been fulfilled yet, because the 7 years, the apocalypse, have yet to begin.

The prince was Titus, he is not named but the prophecy has been fulfilled to the letter LITERALLY.

Assuming that Deuteronomy 31:9-13. is the confirming of the covenant, it is God and the people not an antichrist,

Again it cannot be the prince who was to come who is the subject of that phrase, it is his people, The he refers back to the last person who is the subject, Messiah.
How can an antichrist confirm the covenant? Could the president of north Korea, say, confirm the covenant.

The only person who could confirm the covenant is Christ,
  • Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
  • Luke 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. -
Jesus confirmed the covenant for 3½ years with the Jews from his baptism till his death then by the disciples by preaching the gospel to the Jews for 3½years till the conversion of Cornelius.

You just do not understand the scriptures. Of course you are on the outs with 90 percent of Christendom on this matter.

With modern American Christianity, maybe, but not with the vast majority of Christians before 1900 and the Scofield heresy.
 
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Revealing Times

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The prince was Titus, he is not named but the prophecy has been fulfilled to the letter LITERALLY.

Assuming that Deuteronomy 31:9-13. is the confirming of the covenant, it is God and the people not an antichrist,

Again it cannot be the prince who was to come who is the subject of that phrase, it is his people, The he refers back to the last person who is the subject, Messiah.
How can an antichrist confirm the covenant? Could the president of north Korea, say, confirm the covenant.

The only person who could confirm the covenant is Christ,
  • Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
  • Luke 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. -
Jesus confirmed the covenant for 3½ years with the Jews from his baptism till his death then by the disciples by preaching the gospel to the Jews for 3½years till the conversion of Cornelius.



With modern American Christianity, maybe, but not with the vast majority of Christians before 1900 and the Scofield heresy.
The facts are the facts, just because you can't understand them doesn't change the facts. My Blog below on this is close to three years old. I have been studying prophecy for over 30 years.

Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression
2. Make and end of sins
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
5. To seal up vision and prophecy
6. Anoint the most Holy

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

2. This is fairly straightforward, sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the "time of Jacob's trouble", then "sins will end".

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

So this isn't something I am not familiar with. I put in years studying these issues and praying. I came to the conclusion long ago that about 95 percent of people trying to teach prophecy have pretty much no business teaching it.
 
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jgr

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The facts are the facts, just because you can't understand them doesn't change the facts. My Blog on this is close to three years old. I have been studying prophecy for over 30 years.

Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression
2. Make and end of sins
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
5. To seal up vision and prophecy
6. Anoint the most Holy

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

2. This is fairly straightforward, sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the "time of Jacob's trouble", then "sins will end".

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

So this isn't something I am not familiar with. I put in years studying these issues and praying. I came t the conclusion long ago that about 95 percent of people trying to teach prophecy have pretty much no business teaching it.

Daniel 9
24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Those of the dispensational persuasion would have us believe that the accomplishments enumerated in Daniel 9:24 are not yet in fact accomplishments at all, but remain unfulfilled and delayed, and will only become reality at some indeterminate time in the future, when a millennial kingdom is established. The following assertion by Chuck Missler and others is typical:
“The scope of this prophecy includes a broad list of things which clearly have yet to be completed.”

Let us consult with the Apostle Peter.

2 Peter 1
19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

What would have been the sources of Peter's conviction about a more sure word of prophecy?

One of them was undoubtedly this -- the Emmaus road experience with Jesus -- of which Peter, if not in fact present as the unnamed second disciple, would have been made well aware. Jesus' admonition was rather pointed:

Luke 24
25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Peter was with all of the other disciples who heard this from Jesus:

Luke 24
44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Peter would certainly have been aware of this:

Acts 13
29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Given what Peter had to say, and of what he was aware; how would Peter have viewed Daniel 9:24?

Undoubtedly he would have asked the following:

From Luke 24:25, does what is written in Daniel 9:24 qualify as being among all that the prophets have spoken?

Unquestionably it does.

From Luke 24:27, does what is written in Daniel 9:24 qualify as being among what had been spoken of Christ concerning Himself?

Unquestionably it does.


Then Peter would have of necessity reached an inexorable conclusion:

According to Christ's own words in Luke 24:44, and Paul's inspired words in Acts 13:29; Christ fulfilled everything that was written of Him, which without exception included everything in Daniel 9:24; by the time of His resurrection. Through Christ's completed work at Calvary, there was nothing left undone of the enumerated accomplishments in Daniel's inspired prophecy. All were fulfilled. Nothing remained to await a future age.

It was the epitome of fulfilled spiritual reality – past, present, and for eternity.

This is how Peter would have viewed Daniel 9:24.

This is why he could declare unreservedly that we have a more sure word of prophecy.

And this is why, contrary to Bro. Missler and others, we too can recognize and claim that more sure word of prophecy, and the completion and fulfillment of “all that was written of Him” in the inspired words of Daniel 9:24.

Praise to the Lamb, and His complete and perfect accomplishments at Calvary.
 
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Douggg

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How can an antichrist confirm the covenant? Could the president of north Korea, say, confirm the covenant.
No, the president of North Korea is not qualified to become the King of Israel, to be in the position to be required or allowed to do so. The Antichrist has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism. It is actually more correct to say the person who becomes the Antichrist.

So, it won't be the Pope. It won't be the Mahdi. I won't be a crazy dictator like North Korea guy.

It is going be some Jewish guy who first becomes leader of Europe after they go to a ten leader form of government - whatever that turns out to be.

The Jews rejected Jesus to be their messiah King of Israel. They are looking for someone else. The person that will fill their expectations will be the person who they will embrace thinking he is the messiah, and he will be anointed the King of Israel. And that is what makes the person the Antichrist.

Once in the role of being the perceived messiah, he is required to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a big speech to the nation of Israel that God gave the land of Israel to them as theirs forever - repeating what Moses did. The speech must made from the place of God's choosing, which the Jews take to be the temple mount, from what the Jews have told me.

Moses set the requirement for the leadership of Israel to see to it that the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant is done. And it hasn't been done in recent memory because the Jews have not controlled the temple mount, in way that would allow it. It is not going to happen until after Gog/Magog, which the 7 years are in Ezekiel 39 following Gog's destruction - between the lines. Between verse 16 - and the Armageddon feast in verses 17-20.
 
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Douggg

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So "it is not spelled out" so you can teach what you like, ignoring history.'
Daivd, why the combative attitude? I don''t know why, but it seems like a lot of people in this forum are combative.

It is not spelled out his name, nor the Antichrist moniker. Jews (Judaism) will quickly tell you that there is no Antichrist person prophesied in their religion. That the prince who shall come will become the Antichrist is something that can be known from the Christian New Testament.
 
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Revealing Times

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Your math is that 1185+1335 does not equal 2520 ?
My math is that the 1335 comes before the 1290 which comes before the 1260 because they are each the number of days before the Second Coming/7th Vial.

1.) 1335 Days until the Second Coming the Two-Witnesses show up.

2.) 1290 Days before the Second Coming the Daily is taken away and the AOD is set up.

3.) 1260 Days before the Second Coming the Holy people are Scattered (Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem).

See how 1. and 2. are offset? The two witnesses show up before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem and thus becomes the Beast for 42 Months. The Two-witnesses DIE at the 2nd Woe before the Beast DIES at the 7th Vial or Second Coming. Therefore the 2nd Woe happens 75 days before the Second Coming and thus the Two-witnesses die 75 days before the Beast. They how up 75 days before the Beast and die 75 days before the Beast.
 
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John is presented three woes. The woes are not in chronological order - but presentation order.

The problem is not with the adding and subtracting you are doing, but of interpreting the text of where to place things on the 7 year time.
All of the 21 Judgments are in perfect chronological order, I don't know where you came up with that idea. Revelation is not in chronological order, but the 21 Judgments are.

I got my events down pat brother, and God is adding more things everyday.

RT, here is what you wrote.

1260.....................................2W ARRIVE......1260.............................2W DIE......= 2520

Do you see any day 2445 on your line? No, you left it out. You also left out annotating day 1185. Also the 1260 at the beginning of the line - I think you meant day 1. And instead of equal, it should be just day 2520.
You see the 2W DIE ? That is the 2445. The 2W ARRIVE is day 1185 meaning there is 1335 Days left. You fail to see all the clues it seems. Since I did the math elsewhere you should have been able to understand when/what the 2W ARRIVE and 2W DIE meant.

No I meant to divide EACH HALF into 1260 days. That way 1260 + 1260 = 2520.

Go back fix your line, with day 1185 next to the 2W arrive, and day 2445 next to the 2W die. And change the 1260 at the start of the line to day 1. It is still wrong but at least it will be more clear what you mean.

Here is what you are trying to communicate.... You can copy and paste, and go back and replace your line in your previous post.

day 1...................2W ARRIVE day 1185.....1260days........2WDIEday 2445.........day 2520
Since you understood it why worry? The point is the 1335, the 1290 and the 1260 are EVENTS that happen and the number of days until the Second Coming.

smoothe, but wrong. You have more lines to construct. I have a complete set of lines in my thread Starting from day 1

But I am right........................that's all I care about is truth brother.

You are making up your own narrative, not what is in black and white text for Revelation. It says the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire.

"it is appointed once for man to die, then the judgment" is a general statement. When we accept Jesus we pass from condemnation to life. And there will be one generation of Christians who won't taste death.

And you just dodged the facts I laid out. The facts are THE FACTS. The way to interpret scriptures we are told is LINE UPON LINE, PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT, here a little there a little.

You do exactly what I did when scriptures seemingly disagree or contradict each other. Daniel was told BY GABRIEL !! That the Beasts body will be DESTROYED and that he WILL DIE !!

Its common knowledge we all SLEEP in the Grave thus we never truly die as SPIRIT MEN. Its just simple logic what happens brother.
 
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David Kent

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Daivd, why the combative attitude? I don''t know why, but it seems like a lot of people in this forum are combative.

It is not spelled out his name, nor the Antichrist moniker. Jews (Judaism) will quickly tell you that there is no Antichrist person prophesied in their religion. That the prince who shall come will become the Antichrist is something that can be known from the Christian New Testament.

I say that because that is what you are doing. The people of Titus the prince who was to come did destroy the temple and the city. And yet you ignore the fact and place some future person in his place. that was first mooted by Jesuits Bellarmine and Ribiera in the 16th century to counter the true teaching of the church that the pope is antichrist. When did this teaching migrate to protestantism? In the 1820's with Edward Irving who says, in his morning watch magazine, that he first preached dispensationalism Christmas day 1825. The first futurism preached outside Rome. Irving was the head of the charismatics in London at that time. A number of his 'prophets' confirmed that teaching and actually gave a date for the rapture in 1833.

So futurism is based an a Jesuit plot and false prophets.

You also are either ignorant of history or wilfully ignore it, that Rome was conquered by 10 Gothic kings and that the pope overthrew three of them.
Note also that the witnesses were also two candlesticks and two olive trees. Not that in rev 1 candlesticks are churches, Scripture doesn't give these symbols for us to ignore them, but to show us what the symbol means throughout prophecy.
 
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2. What is Dispensationalism?
Dispensationalism is a form of premillennialism originating among the Plymouth Brethren in the early 1830's. The father of dispensationalism, John Nelson Darby, educated as a lawyer and ordained Anglican priest, was one of the chief founders of the Plymouth Brethren movement, which arose in reaction against the perceived empty formalism of the Church of England. To the Brethren the true "invisible" church was to come out of the apostate "visible" Church, rejecting such forms as priesthood and sacraments.
Dispensational theology centers upon the concept of God's dealings with mankind being divided into (usually) seven distinct economies or "dispensations", in which man is tested as to his obedience to the will of God as revealed under each dispensation.

Dispensationalists see God as pursuing two distinct purposes throughout history, one related to an earthly goal and an earthly people (the Jews), the other to heavenly goals and a heavenly people (the church).1

Dispensationalists believe that in the Old Testament God promised the Jewish people an earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah ben David, and that when Christ came He offered this prophesied kingdom to the Jews. When the Jews of the time rejected Christ and the earthly kingdom, the promise was postponed, and the "mystery form" of the kingdom - the church - was established.

The church, according to dispensational doctrine, was unforeseen in the Old Testament and constitutes a "parenthesis" in God's plan for Israel. In the future, the distinction between Jew and Gentile will be reestablished and will continue throughout all eternity. The "parenthesis", or church age, will end at the rapture when Christ comes invisibly to take all believers (excepting OT saints) to heaven to celebrate the "marriage feast of the Lamb" with Christ for a period of seven years.2
God's program for the Jews then resumes with the tribulation, Antichrist, bowls of wrath, 144,000 Jews preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and Armageddon. Then, the Second (third, if you count the preTrib rapture) Coming, the instantaneous conversion of the entire nation of Israel, the resurrection of the Tribulation and Old Testament saints, and the "sheep and goats" judgment. The "goats" will be cast into hell, the "sheep" and the believing Jews will enter the millennium in natural human bodies, marrying, reproducing, and dying. The "mystery church" and the resurrected Tribulation and Old Testament saints will live in the heavenly Jerusalem suspended above the earthly city. This millennium will be a time of great peace and prosperity, with Christ ruling on David's throne. After 1,000 yrs. Satan will be released from the chain with which he had been bound at the beginning of the millennium and many of the children born to the "sheep" and the Israelites will follow him in revolt against Christ. The King will again destroy His enemies, followed by another resurrection of the righteous, another resurrection of the unrighteous, a final judgment, and at last the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Although premillennial thought has been recorded in the early church, dispensational theology and its pursuant eschatology are new, as even the father of the system admitted -

"I think we ought to have something more of direct testimony as to the lord's coming, and its bearing also on the state of the church: ordinarily, it would not be well to have it so clear, as it frightens people. We must pursue it steadily; it works like leaven, and its fruit is by no means seen yet; I do not mean leaven as ill, but the thoughts are new, and people's minds work on them, and all the old habits are against their feelings - all the gain of situation, and every worldly motive; we must not be surprised at its effect being slow on the mass, the ordinary instruments of acting upon others having been trained in most opposite habits." - LETTERS OF J.N.D., vol.1 pg.25-26The new doctrine was widely accepted in America, due to popular prophetic meetings such as the Niagara Bible Conferences. C.I. Scofield promulgated dispensational thought in his Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensational Bible institutes by the hundreds have sprung up across the continent - notably Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary. Media evangelists such as Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, and Hal Lindsey popularize dispensational eschatology today. Most likely you have heard these doctrines taught over Christian radio programs, and yes, from your own church's pulpit, though probably no one defined the theological system as dispensationalism nor the origination as Darby circa 1832.
Dispensationalists view the teaching as a return to Biblical theology, after nearly 1,800 years of darkness. But, since the day Darby began to preach the doctrine, Godly men have opposed. Many books have been published exposing the flaws in the intricate system. Most hack away at the branches, arguing peripheral issues. We intend to lay the axe to the root of the tree.

"My brother, I am a constant reader of my Bible, and I soon found that what I was taught to believe (by Darby's doctrine) did not always agree with what my Bible said. I came to see that I must either part company with John Darby, or my precious Bible, and I chose to cling to my Bible and part from Mr. Darby." - George Müeller, a contemporary and one time supporter of Darby quoted by Robert Cameron in his book SCRIPTURAL TRUTH ABOUT THE LORD'S RETURN, pp.146-7

Gospel Plow.
 
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Revealing Times

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Seals 1-6 chrono. sequence. Seal 7 does not chrono. follow seal 6
Trumpets 1-6 chrono. sequence. Trumpet 7 does not chorno. follow trump 6
Vials 1-7 chrono. sequence. Because vial 7 is the finish of the 70th week.
I will start with these last comments first since I think I know whats giving you problems, at least I think, with your chronological logistics.

I think you see (or it seems that way) the Earthquakes in all three of the Seals/Trumpets/Vials as the exact same end time event, do you not? Maybe I am off with what you are thinking, but you seem to think the 7th Seal and I guess the 7th Trumpet are out if Sequence, but nothing is out of Sequence.

The Seventh Seal is ALL SEVEN TRUMPETS and the Seventh Trumpet which is the 3rd Woe is ALL SEVEN VIALS. They are all rolled up into each other so to speak.

do it forward version. start from day 1. Anchor all the lines by beginning with day 1. You probably need to break it up into more lines - and do a rework.

This, for example, is what I think (?) you are trying to communicate (of your view).

day 1.....day 1260 1st seal........6 remaining seals...... day 2520.
This is why I think you think the Seals go to the END ABOVE, that is not how I see it. I just assume everyone knows the 21 Judgments come in between. I am making a point about what the 1335, the 1290 and the 1260 means here.

day 1..... day 1260....first 4 trumpets....1st woe 5th trumpet....... 2WDIE day 2445 2nd woe.......7th trumpet the 3rd woe the 7 vials...... day 2520.

I don't know where to put the 6th trumpet on the above line - in your view. Maybe between the 5th trumpet and the 2WDIE ?

day 1...................2W ARRIVE day 1185.....1260days........2WDIEday 2445.........day 2520

The 5th Trumpet is the 1st Woe, the 6th Trimpet is the 2nd Woe and just like the Seventh Seal is all Seven Trumpets the 3rd Woe (which is the Seventh Trumpet) is ALL SEVEN VIALS.

I will do a FULL TIME LINE in a separate post.

RT, you have the 7 seals beginning at day 1260, where is the 6th and 7th seal?

6th seal, the world sees Jesus in heaven
7th seal, don't hurt the earth, the trees the green grass

day1................... day 1260 Seal 1....

The problem with you view of everything being 100% chronologically as presented - it doesn't work.

Seals 1-6 chrono. sequence. Seal 7 does not chrono. follow seal 6
Trumpets 1-6 chrono. sequence. Trumpet 7 does not chorno. follow trump 6
Vials 1-7 chrono. sequence. Because vial 7 is the finish of the 70th week.

I don't see where the WORLD SEES Jesus at Seal #6, they just understand they are in the Lambs Wrath at that time, but thy have been in it since the very First Seal was broken. The Seventh Seal is ALL SEVEN TRUMPS.

Rev. 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

So the 7th Seal does not say don't hurt the earth nor the trees. Rev. chapter 7 I think is what you are referring to, that is happening just before the First Seal is broken, that is Israel being SEALED or protected by God, its not 144,000 literal people, its Israel FLEEING unto the Wilderness. Then we see the church in Heaven in verse 9 Marrying the Lamb.

Lets see, I think I am correct, you see the Earthquake and 6th Seal as a Jesus landing on the Mt. of Olives event which IT IS NOT Brother, that used to confuse me also, but each Earthquake gets progressively worse, we can prove that via verses. Its just like the Trumpets and the Vials, each of the sets of plagues get PROGRESSIVELY WORSE ALSO, the 1/3 of the ships destroyed turn into all of the ships destroyed, the 1/3 of the waters poisoned turns into all of the waters poisoned, the 1/3 of the creatures in the sea that die turns into all the creatures in the sea dying etc. etc. The sun is darkened in tn the 6th Seal but there is total darkness during the Vials at the end.

My POINT is this. The Earthquakes are set up in three likewise sets of events that also get PROGRESSIVELY WORSE each time !! Its as if God is warning of impending doom as He always does. See Nineveh, Lot in Sodom etc.


THREE EARTHQUAKE EVENTS:

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars(Satan/Demons cast out of Heaven) of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Now lets go to Rev, 11 and the 2nd Woe (6th Trumpet).

Rev. 11:13 And the same hour (Two witnesses ascend to Heaven) was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past (6th Trumpet); and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Now lets go to Jesus' Return in Rev. chapter 16.

Rev. 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell (Babylon Defeated): and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

These earthquakes get progressively worse just like the plagues. Notice in the Rev. ch 11 earthquake a TENTH part of the City FALLS 1 portion out of 10 or 10 percent of the City is destroyed...........In the Rev. 16 earthquake it says the city is divided into THREE PARTS. Its not the same event !!

The Earthquakes get progressively works just like the 21 Judgments get progressively worse.

Let me do a TIME-LINE................
 
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David Kent

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3. Is Dispensational Premillennialism Different from Historic Premillennialism?

Please understand that Dispensational Premillennialism and classic Historic Premillennialism are two very different systems of eschatology:

From: THE BIBLE AND THE FUTURE by Dr. Wick Broomall

  • Older premillennialism taught that the church was in the forevision of the Old Testament prophecy; Dispensationalism teaches that the church is hardly, if at all, in the Old Testament prophets.
  • Older premillennialism taught that the great burden of Old Testament prophecy was the coming of Christ to die (at the First Advent) and the kingdom age (at the Second Advent). Dispensationalism says that the great burden of Old Testament prophecy is the kingdom of the Jews.
  • Older premillennialism taught that the First Advent was the specific time for Christ to die for man's sin; Dispensationalism teaches that the kingdom (earthly) should have been set up at the First Advent for that was the predicted time of its coming.
  • Older premillennialism taught that the present age of grace was designed by God and predicted in the Old Testament; Dispensationalism holds that the present age was unforeseen in the Old Testament and thus is a "great parenthesis" introduced because the Jews rejected the kingdom.
  • Older premillennialism taught that one may divide time in any way desirable so long as one allows for a millennium after the Second Advent; Dispensationalism maintains that the only allowable way to divide time is in seven dispensations. The present age is the sixth such dispensation; the last one will be the millennial age after the Second Advent. It is from this division of time that Dispensationalism gets its name.
  • Older premillennialism taught that the Second Advent was to be one event; Dispensationalism holds that the Second Advent will be in two sections - "the Rapture" and "the Revelation." Between these two events they put the (to them) unfulfilled seventieth week (seven years) of Daniel 9:23-27, which they call "the Great Tribulation."
  • Older premillennialism taught that certain signs must precede the Second Advent; Dispensationalism teaches that no sign precedes the "rapture-stage" of the Second Advent, which may occur "at any moment." However, there are signs that precede the "revelation-stage" of the Second Advent. The "Rapture" could occur "at any moment," but the "Revelation" must take place after the seven years of the Great Tribulation. The first stage is undated and unannounced; the second stage is dated and announced.
  • Older premillennialism had two resurrections-the righteous before the Millennium; the unrighteous after the Millennium. Dispensationalism has introduced a third resurrection - "tribulation-saints" at the "revelation-stage" of the Second Advent.
  • Older premillennialism usually held what is called the "historical symbolic" view of the book of Revelation. This view makes Revelation a picture in symbolic form of the main events in the present age. Dispensationalism holds generally to the "futurist" view of the book of Revelation, which view makes almost the whole book (especially chapters 4 to 19) a literal description of events to take place during "the Great Tribulation" or Daniel's seventieth week, which Dispensationalism considers as yet unfulfilled.
  • The general attitude of older premillennialism was on the whole mild and reverent in its approach to Scripture. There have been some outstanding scholars who have been persuaded that the premillennial is the correct view. In contrast, Dispensationalism has assumed a far more dogmatic attitude. It has introduced a number of novelties in prophetic interpretation that the church never heard of until about a century ago.
Historic Premillennialism is considered to be an orthodox Christian millennial system. Arguments posited against this older form of chiliasm will be in the nature of a disagreement among brethren about non-essentials. The dispensational system, however, differs from orthodox Christian doctrine in many areas. Most of these aberrations will, if seriously considered, end in the denial of the everlasting gospel.

Gospel Plow.
 
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