New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration

keras

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This all depends on one's belief of what the times of the gentiles means. Unfortunately, I have not seen if there is a reference to the time of gentiles in the OT. If there is, maybe someone can point it out. What we do know, is that the Jerusalem that is trampled by the gentiles is about PHYSICAL JERUSALEM. I assume we agree that heavenly Jerusalem can never be trampled.
Daniel 7:23-25 tells us about the terrible 4th kingdom to come, that will control the whole world for a time, times and half a time. This we know is the same as the 42 months of Revelation 13:5 and is also the period mentioned in Revelation 17:12-14 and Daniel 11:31-35
This period is exactly 1260 days, as those Christians who have kept faithful to the Lord will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that time. Revelation 12:6 & 14
Do you realize that the scene described in Revelation 5:9-10 takes place in heaven and is mainly speaking of the elders in heaven?
And you even quote verse 9, where it specifically says how those bought by the Blood of Jesus; namely every born again Christian, will be the Priests of God and will reign on earth.
The vision is given to John as he stood in heaven, but it is entirely about events on earth.
 
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claninja

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Actually, it is a literally true and entirely correct statement.

If it is true, and not a straw man argument , please provide quotations, where any one said that the promises made to OT israel were not fulfilled or will not be fulfilled.

choose to interpret these New Testament scriptures to mean that the Old testament promises to Israel will not actually be fulfilled.
 
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jgr

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Daniel 7:23-25 tells us about the terrible 4th kingdom
The fourth kingdom was indeed terrible. It was the imperial Roman kingdom. It followed the Grecian third kingdom. It was in turn followed by the papal Roman kingdom.

But no kingdom was sufficiently terrible to prevent Christ establishing His own everlasting kingdom then and there.

Daniel 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

I'm part of that kingdom. Aren't you?
 
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BABerean2

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This period is exactly 1260 days, as those Christians who have kept faithful to the Lord will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that time. Revelation 12:6 & 14

The time of the judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18.

The beginning of Revelation chapter 12 is a history lesson, which includes the fall of Satan and the birth of Christ.


Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.



Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

.
 
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claninja

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Daniel 7:23-25 tells us about the terrible 4th kingdom to come, that will control the whole world

This was the roman empire, which came after the greek empire. it is not a future one.

that will control the whole world for a time, times and half a time.

Scripture does not say the 4th kingdom would rule the world for a time, times, and half a time.

Christ's kingdom came during the time of the of roman empire.

Christ was the king of the universe back then, and he still is today, and will always be:

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Ephesians 1:20-21
which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.
 
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keras

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This was the roman empire, which came after the greek empire. it is not a future one.
Your opinion that is proved wrong by how the Romans didn't fulfil Daniel 7:23-25, or the other prophesies telling about a future One World Government. Revelation 13:1-18
Scripture does not say the 4th kingdom would rule the world for a time, times, and half a time.
Your credibility goes down the plughole, making a direct contradiction of Scripture. Daniel 7:25b
Christ's kingdom came during the time of the of roman empire.
Spiritually, yes. Physically, no. We await His glorious Return, as Revelation 19:11-21 describes.
I'm part of that kingdom. Aren't you?
Patience, my friend.
Delusions are not helpful in our understanding of what God has planned for our future.
 
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jgr

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claninja

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Your opinion that is proved wrong by how the Romans didn't fulfil Daniel 7:23-25,

It's not opinion, it's literally history. The Roman empire came after the Greek empire. The roman empire was the fourth world empire.

1.)The First world wide "one government" empire = babylon, the head of Gold, the lion
Daniel 2:37
You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them allyou are the head of gold.

2.)The Second world wide "one government" empire= Persia/Mede, the chest and arms of Silver, the bear
Daniel 2:39
Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you
2 Chronicles 36:20
He took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and to his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia,
2 Chronicles 36:23
Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, ‘The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah

3.) The Third world wide "one government" empire= Greek, the middle and thighs of bronze, the leopard
Daniel 2:39
and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
Daniel 8:20
s for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia. And the goatd is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.

4.) The Fourth world wide "one government" empire= Rome, the legs of iron and feet iron/clay, the beast
Daniel 2:40-41
And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay.
Daniel 7:23
“Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms,and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.

________________________________________________________________
Now we arrive at Daniel 2:44
And in the days of those kings (the 4th empire) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people.

So now we have the 4 world wide "one government" empires. During which empire did Christ receive kingdom and become king?
When did Christ ascend to heaven to receive a kingdom? During the Roman empire
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.
When did Christ receive all authority in heaven and on earth? During the Roman empire
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
When did Christ receive all rule, dominion and power over every name? During the Roman empire
Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
When did Christ become ruler over the kings of the earth? During the Roman empire
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Your credibility goes down the plughole, making a direct contradiction of Scripture. Daniel 7:25b

There's no contradiction when one knows what the verse actually says. No where in daniel 7 does it say the 4th kingdom controls the world for only a time, times, and half a time, as you say it does. We are not given in daniel 7 how long the 4th kingdom controls the world. BUT we are given how long one of the horns, which comes from the 4th kingdom, wears out the saints: time, times, and half time

“Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,

there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
24As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them;
he shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.
25He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time.
 
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keras

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What didn't the Romans fulfill?
None of Daniel 7:23-27 was fulfilled by the Romans and followed in verse 27, by how that kingdom is followed by the Lord's holy people being given the sovereignty and power forever.
Does that mean you're not part of the kingdom He established?
Not yet, because Jesus' Kingdom isn't yet established on earth. Haven't you noticed that?
 
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jgr

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None of Daniel 7:23-27 was fulfilled by the Romans and followed in verse 27, by how that kingdom is followed by the Lord's holy people being given the sovereignty and power forever.

Not yet, because Jesus' Kingdom isn't yet established on earth. Haven't you noticed that?
Historically, imperial Rome was the fourth kingdom. Doesn't that fulfill the first part of Daniel 7:23?

Haven't you noticed that Christ has already made you a king? (Revelation 1:6)
 
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claninja

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Not yet, because Jesus' Kingdom isn't yet established on earth. Haven't you noticed that?

So your citizenship is not in heaven?

Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Philippians 3:19-20

Which is the true Jerusalem.

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Galatians 4:25-26

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Hebrews 12:22
 
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keras

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Historically, imperial Rome was the fourth kingdom. Doesn't that fulfill the first part of Daniel 7:23?
Basically, yes. Just the first part.
The statues that Neb. saw had the 2 legs of iron, which represented the Western and Eastern parts of the old Roman Empire. This split continues today, in the Catholic Church and in the nations.
But the ten toes have not yet materialized, despite many trying to fit the Goths, etc to them.

You will surely be aware of the push from certain shadowy groups, to set up a One World Govt. That is what Daniel and Rev. are prophesying. All that is needed for it to become established, is some kind of worldwide disaster, that will force the nations to relinquish their sovereignty.
The Sixth Seal, terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, will be that disaster and the world will be divided into 10 regions, with a President over each. Exactly as Revelation 17:12 says, then as verse 13 states; they will give their authority to one man: referred to as the 'beast'.
 
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keras

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So your citizenship is not in heaven?
This sort of nonsense talk, is just foolishness. Exactly where are YOU right now, Claninja?

As born again Christians, we have the Promises of God; of citizenship in His Kingdom, of rewards for our faithfulness and good works, and of our names Written in the Book of Life, for Eternal life. John 3:16
We will receive all of them in God's good timing, in the meantime, we must stand strong in our faith, especially during the testing times to come. 1 Peter 4:12 Because it is possible to lose those Promises and be 'blotted out from the Book of Life'. Psalms 69:28
 
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claninja

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This sort of nonsense talk
ἡμῶν γὰρ τὸ πολίτευμα ἐν οὐρανοῖς ὑπάρχει
of us indeed the citizenship of heaven exists

ὑπάρχει (exists)
is a present indicative active verb. Meaning, not future or past, but our citizenship exists now, if we are a part of the body of Christ.

is just foolishness

John 3:12
I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Exactly where are YOU right now, Claninja?

I am on earth in a natural body that God has given me, and yet I am currently a citizen of the kingdom of heaven. I have one king and He is the Christ. I work for the kingdom of heaven while I am alive in my natural body and will work for the kingdom of heaven when I am alive and have a spiritual body. Whether I am present in natural body or at home in the spiritual body, I am a citizen of heaven of whom Christ is the King. Christ is King of heaven and of earth. So whether I am on the earth or in heaven, I am a citizen of the kingdom of Christ
 
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keras

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I am on earth in a natural body that God has given me, and yet I am currently a citizen of the kingdom of heaven. I have one king and He is the Christ. I work for the kingdom of heaven while I am alive in my natural body and will work for the kingdom of heaven when I am alive and have a spiritual body. Whether I am present in natural body or at home in the spiritual body, I am a citizen of heaven of whom Christ is the King. Christ is King of heaven and of earth. So whether I am on the earth or in heaven, I am a citizen of the kingdom of Christ
This I fully agree with. What are we arguing about?

My only difference is that nowhere in Scripture does it say we actually go to heaven. Eventually, God and therefore heaven, comes down to us. Revelation 21:1-7
 
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jgr

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Basically, yes. Just the first part.
The statues that Neb. saw had the 2 legs of iron, which represented the Western and Eastern parts of the old Roman Empire. This split continues today, in the Catholic Church and in the nations.
But the ten toes have not yet materialized, despite many trying to fit the Goths, etc to them.

You will surely be aware of the push from certain shadowy groups, to set up a One World Govt. That is what Daniel and Rev. are prophesying. All that is needed for it to become established, is some kind of worldwide disaster, that will force the nations to relinquish their sovereignty.
The Sixth Seal, terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, will be that disaster and the world will be divided into 10 regions, with a President over each. Exactly as Revelation 17:12 says, then as verse 13 states; they will give their authority to one man: referred to as the 'beast'.

The imperial Western Roman empire ultimately disintegrated into ten kingdoms, which correspond to the ten horns of Daniel 7:
Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Anglo-Saxons

The little horn which emerged from these was the Papal Roman empire.

It overthrew three horns:
Heruli, Vandals, Ostrogoths
 
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Biblewriter

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If it is true, and not a straw man argument , please provide quotations, where any one said that the promises made to OT israel were not fulfilled or will not be fulfilled.

There are many here, (I think including yourself) that deny that the "mountains of Israel," along with "the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around," will again be inhabited by absolutely all of "the house of Israel," as is so explicitly stated in Ezekel 36. And there are many here (again, I think including you) that deny that in a future day the nation of Israel will again have the borders so specifically and explicitly defined in Ezekiel 47, and that it will be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel in the way so specifically and explicitly stated in Ezekiel 48.

Again, there are many here, (again I think including you) that deny that the ancient sub-nations of Judah and Ephraim will again be united into a single nation, with a single king, and go out together to attack Israel's enemies Judah and Ephraim, as is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 47 and Isaiah 11.

I could go on and on, but this is enough to prove the point.

There is no logical way the even pretend either that these promises refer to the church, or that they have already been fulfilled.
 
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jgr

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Again, there are many here, (again I think including you) that deny that the ancient sub-nations of Judah and Ephraim will again be united into a single nation, with a single king, and go out together to attack Israel's enemies Judah and Ephraim, as is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 47 and Isaiah 11.

Presumably Judah and Ephraim submitted saliva or other DNA samples long ago, against which contemporary tribal claimants can check their own samples to prove their claims of inclusion. We certainly would want to ensure that there are no genetic impostors.

How many molecules/litre of matching DNA will be necessary to qualify for inclusion?
 
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keras

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The imperial Western Roman empire ultimately disintegrated into ten kingdoms, which correspond to the ten horns of Daniel 7:
Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Anglo-Saxons

The little horn which emerged from these was the Papal Roman empire.
It overthrew three horns:
Heruli, Vandals, Ostrogoths
Those peoples never fulfilled the prophesies of Daniel or Revelation, of there being ten regions of all the world, ruled by a king or governor. Most of those tribal groups you list never had a single leader and they certainly never ruled a tenth of the world.
It is quite unbelievable to say that the Catholic Church 'treads down and crushes the whole earth'.
Your preterist belief is rejected on the grounds of inadequate fulfilment of the Bible prophesies.
What you say, may be construed as a precursor of a future final fulfilment.

The view that denies the plain Prophetic Word and believes all these things are past history, leaves people without a clue as to what God actually does plan for our future. This isn't what God wants, because He has given us all the information needed for us to be aware and prepared for what must happen, before Jesus Returns.
 
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Biblewriter

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Presumably Judah and Ephraim submitted saliva or other DNA samples long ago, against which contemporary tribal claimants can check their own samples to prove their claims of inclusion. We certainly would want to ensure that there are no genetic impostors.

How many molecules/litre of matching DNA will be necessary to qualify for inclusion?

Such a sacrilegious answer is unfitting to a person who claims to be a spiritual teacher. Do you imagine that the God who created heaven and earth, does not have is own method of determining who He credits as being the true descendants of the ancient nation of Israel?
 
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