Is the Eucharist a Sacrifice?

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Catholics and Orthodox believe that the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The elements become the body and blood of Jesus and the church offers Jesus to the Father along with her other offerings and her whole self. For this reason, an ordained priesthood is important, there's an altar, there's a tabernacle to hold the elements which are not used, and other features which go along with sacerdotalism.

A virtue of this view is that it is very much in line with OT worship. In OT worship, a sacrifice was brought to the altar, a priest would offer it up, and the worshipper would consume some of the sacrifice (though this was not the case in every kind of sacrifice - the burnt offering was totally consumed in the fire of the altar). If Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism then this makes some sense. Jesus is our sacrifice, our Passover lamb - the NT makes this plain. Also we are to consume his body and blood which was offered up as a propitiation for our sins. This would have made a lot of sense to a Jewish Christian in the first century.

However a problem with this view is that it does not appear to have New Testament warrant. I can't think of any place in the New Testament where the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice is really made clear. I can think of many opportunities where it could have been made clear, though. But in these instances, the Eucharist is not mentioned. One would think, for instance, of the many times in the book of Hebrews when something like a Eucharistic sacrifice could have been emphasized. But this idea is absent from Hebrews.

Another problem is that the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice appears to be missing from the literature of the apostolic fathers. This idea isn't really solidified until the third century, as far as I can tell.

Jesus is our sacrifice. Jesus is our high priest. Through Jesus we have access to the Father. But should the earthly celebration of the Eucharist be regarded as a sacrifice?
 

JIMINZ

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Catholics and Orthodox believe that the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The elements become the body and blood of Jesus and the church offers Jesus to the Father along with her other offerings and her whole self. For this reason, an ordained priesthood is important, there's an altar, there's a tabernacle to hold the elements which are not used, and other features which go along with sacerdotalism.

A virtue of this view is that it is very much in line with OT worship. In OT worship, a sacrifice was brought to the altar, a priest would offer it up, and the worshipper would consume some of the sacrifice (though this was not the case in every kind of sacrifice - the burnt offering was totally consumed in the fire of the altar). If Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism then this makes some sense. Jesus is our sacrifice, our Passover lamb - the NT makes this plain. Also we are to consume his body and blood which was offered up as a propitiation for our sins. This would have made a lot of sense to a Jewish Christian in the first century.

However a problem with this view is that it does not appear to have New Testament warrant. I can't think of any place in the New Testament where the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice is really made clear. I can think of many opportunities where it could have been made clear, though. But in these instances, the Eucharist is not mentioned. One would think, for instance, of the many times in the book of Hebrews when something like a Eucharistic sacrifice could have been emphasized. But this idea is absent from Hebrews.

Another problem is that the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice appears to be missing from the literature of the apostolic fathers. This idea isn't really solidified until the third century, as far as I can tell.

Jesus is our sacrifice. Jesus is our high priest. Through Jesus we have access to the Father. But should the earthly celebration of the Eucharist be regarded as a sacrifice?
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Every time you share a meal with your family or friends, you say the Blessing, this Blessing is the Remembrance of the Sacrifice of Jesus, and then eat, you are doing it in "Remembrance of Him" till the Lord comes.

It isn't in some special Sanctified Ritual which the person receiving remembers the Sacrifice of Christ, it can be in the daily living consciousness of the person receiving.
 
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Every time you share a meal with your family of friends, you say the Blessing, and then eat, you are doing it in "Remembrance of Him" till the Lord comes.

It isn't in some special sanctified ritual which the person receiving remembers the Sacrifice of Christ, it can be in the daily living consciousness of the person receiving.

This seems much looser and much more disconnected from the cross than the Bible's view of the Eucharist.
 
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tampasteve

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I am not sure about the Eucharist sacrifice part, personally I believe it to be metaphorical, but there is certainly scripture that Catholics and Orthodox use to prove literal, so I will not debate that point. But I did want to comment and expound on the sacrifices in the second temple era and their relation to the followers of Yeshua at that time - while the temple still stood.

In OT worship, a sacrifice was brought to the altar, a priest would offer it up, and the worshiper would consume some of the sacrifice (though this was not the case in every kind of sacrifice - the burnt offering was totally consumed in the fire of the altar).
It is actually much more in depth, spiritually. The Temple and altar were a portal to G-d, a way for us to commune with G-d on Earth. A worshiper would physically lean on the animal to be sacrificed and symbolically transfer his self, his life force to the animal (much as we lay hands on people to ordain them). Then the animal would be ritually slaughtered and the blood caught by the priest who would then splash it on the altar, enabling the worshiper to draw near to G-d through the ritual. Blood was not always needed as we could also offer grain, but the symbolism was the same. Not all sacrifices were like this though, but they all were methods for us to draw near to G-d to sanctify ourselves to stand in His presence on Earth in His Temple. This is why the Apostles and the Jerusalem community continued offering sacrifices in the Temple as we can see in Acts.

But sacrifice was never meant to cleans sin or remit our sins.

Also we are to consume his body and blood which was offered up as a propitiation for our sins. This would have made a lot of sense to a Jewish Christian in the first century.
Consuming blood is anathema for Jewish people, they would not have understood it or condoned it, especially blood of humans.

Yes I am familiar with the Didache material on the subject. It's hard to tell when this was written though.
It is widely believed to be 1st century, about the earliest we can get. It is very much in line with scripture in Acts, just a simple expounding of the scripture we have. Personally, I find no reason to doubt its authenticity when compared with scripture and other period sources.
 
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I am not sure about the Eucharist sacrifice part, personally I believe it to be metaphorical, but there is certainly scripture that Catholics and Orthodox use to prove literal, so I will not debate that point. But I did want to comment and expound on the sacrifices in the second temple era and their relation to the followers of Yeshua at that time - while the temple still stood.

The issues are connected but not the same. Whether or not the elements are literally the body and blood of Christ and whether or not the ceremony is a sacrifice are two different questions.

It is actually much more in depth, spiritually. The Temple and altar were a portal to G-d, a way for us to commune with G-d on Earth. A worshiper would physically lean on the animal to be sacrificed and symbolically transfer his self, his life force to the animal (much as we lay hands on people to ordain them). Then the animal would be ritually slaughtered and the blood caught by the priest who would then splash it on the altar, enabling the worshiper to draw near to G-d through the ritual. Blood was not always needed as we could also offer grain, but the symbolism was the same. Not all sacrifices were like this though, but they all were methods for us to draw near to G-d to sanctify ourselves to stand in His presence on Earth in His Temple. This is why the Apostles and the Jerusalem community continued offering sacrifices in the Temple as we can see in Acts.

While the Jerusalem church continued to meet in the temple, it's not clear that they continued to participate in temple sacrifices. They met in Solomon's Colonnade.

But sacrifice was never meant to cleans sin or remit our sins.

While OT sacrifices did not truly accomplish this, remission of sins was certainly their meaning.
 
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This seems much looser and much more disconnected from the cross than the Bible's view of the Eucharist.
.
Could that be, because you have not only been taught the ritual of your own Denomination, and heard of how Communion is accomplished in the Catholic and Orthodox Denominations.

Jesus said while sitting at a meal with His FRIENDS, as oft as you do this do this in remembrance of me.

Luke 22:17
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Where is the ritual, it happened during a meal with friends as the example.

What your asking about is nothing more than a DOGMA, an unsubstantiated belief.
 
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tampasteve

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While the Jerusalem church continued to meet in the temple, it's not clear that they continued to participate in temple sacrifices.
We can perhaps look like the scripture does not say it, but it is pretty clear that they were instructing Paul to follow Torah (as he had been) which would include the sacrificial system while the Temple stood. Acts 21 is reasonably clear about this, but I suppose this thread is not the right place for this discussion.
While OT sacrifices did not truly accomplish this, remission of sins was certainly their meaning.
Please point me to where this is in scripture. Is it more likely that G-d instituted a sacrificial system, by His word, to remit sins, but it did not really work it was all a trick more or less. Or, is it more likely that perhaps the sacrificial system is a bit misunderstood to us now and remittance of sins was not its purpose, but rather to draw close to G-d, a means to come in contact with the eternal, with the all powerful?

Most sacrifices were not for sin, they were for other purposes in order to draw close to G-d. Even the "sin sacrifice" was not really just done when one would sin, for example, Nazarites would make a sin sacrifice at the end of their vow, which incidentally is also likely what Paul was paying for in Acts for the other men.

If Paul and the elders were going around Jerusalem telling people they did not need to sacrifice at the Temple you can be that there would have been more than a few arrested quickly.
 
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Catholics and Orthodox believe that the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The elements become the body and blood of Jesus and the church offers Jesus to the Father along with her other offerings and her whole self. For this reason, an ordained priesthood is important, there's an altar, there's a tabernacle to hold the elements which are not used, and other features which go along with sacerdotalism.

A virtue of this view is that it is very much in line with OT worship. In OT worship, a sacrifice was brought to the altar, a priest would offer it up, and the worshipper would consume some of the sacrifice (though this was not the case in every kind of sacrifice - the burnt offering was totally consumed in the fire of the altar). If Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism then this makes some sense. Jesus is our sacrifice, our Passover lamb - the NT makes this plain. Also we are to consume his body and blood which was offered up as a propitiation for our sins. This would have made a lot of sense to a Jewish Christian in the first century.

However a problem with this view is that it does not appear to have New Testament warrant. I can't think of any place in the New Testament where the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice is really made clear. I can think of many opportunities where it could have been made clear, though. But in these instances, the Eucharist is not mentioned. One would think, for instance, of the many times in the book of Hebrews when something like a Eucharistic sacrifice could have been emphasized. But this idea is absent from Hebrews.

Another problem is that the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice appears to be missing from the literature of the apostolic fathers. This idea isn't really solidified until the third century, as far as I can tell.

Jesus is our sacrifice. Jesus is our high priest. Through Jesus we have access to the Father. But should the earthly celebration of the Eucharist be regarded as a sacrifice?
It isn’t in the scriptures it comes out of the traditions of men and we should flee from such things as sacraments it sacfrice is the mass or many other Eucharist aspects.
 
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Tree of Life

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Please point me to where this is in scripture. Most sacrifices were not for sin, they were for other purposes in order to draw close to G-d.

Leviticus 6:1-7 - The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “If anyone sins and commits a breach of faith against the Lord by deceiving his neighbor in a matter of deposit or security, or through robbery, or if he has oppressed his neighbor 3 or has found something lost and lied about it, swearing falsely—in any of all the things that people do and sin thereby— 4 if he has sinned and has realized his guilt and will restore what he took by robbery or what he got by oppression or the deposit that was committed to him or the lost thing that he found 5 or anything about which he has sworn falsely, he shall restore it in full and shall add a fifth to it, and give it to him to whom it belongs on the day he realizes his guilt. 6 And he shall bring to the priest as his compensation to the Lord a ram without blemish out of the flock, or its equivalent, for a guilt offering. 7 And the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things that one may do and thereby become guilty.”

This is one of many many examples.
 
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tampasteve

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Leviticus 6:1-7 - The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “If anyone sins and commits a breach of faith against the Lord by deceiving his neighbor in a matter of deposit or security, or through robbery, or if he has oppressed his neighbor 3 or has found something lost and lied about it, swearing falsely—in any of all the things that people do and sin thereby— 4 if he has sinned and has realized his guilt and will restore what he took by robbery or what he got by oppression or the deposit that was committed to him or the lost thing that he found 5 or anything about which he has sworn falsely, he shall restore it in full and shall add a fifth to it, and give it to him to whom it belongs on the day he realizes his guilt. 6 And he shall bring to the priest as his compensation to the Lord a ram without blemish out of the flock, or its equivalent, for a guilt offering. 7 And the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things that one may do and thereby become guilty.”

This is one of many many examples.
Right, so it is a process, as outlined in the verses:
1: Realize sin/guilt Lev. 6:4
2: Make restitution Lev. 6:5
3: Bring Sacrifice Lev. 6:7 (including prayers to G-d)

Without the restitution there would be no forgiveness. Taken with other scripture we can see that the restitution and prayer to G-d are the important part of the forgiveness of the sin, the sacrifice makes us atoned to G-d to stand before Him again.

If we say that this did in fact remit sins then all we really gained from the sacrifice of Jesus is the ability to not have to make an animal sacrifice, convenience as it were. Otherwise, if we say that it did not remit sins but was meant to, then it was all a sham for the participants.

But I am sorry, I think I have derailed your thread, would you like me to delete my posts? I truly do not mind if you do.
 
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If we say that this did in fact remit sins then all we really gained from the sacrifice of Jesus is the ability to not have to make an animal sacrifice, convenience as it were. Otherwise, if we say that it did not remit sins but was meant to, then it was all a sham for the participants.

It was a sacrament for the participants. The animal was a type of Christ. Jesus' blood is the only blood that truly remits sins. But in these sacrifices, Jesus was presented to OT believers even though they didn't fully know it.
 
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tampasteve

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It was a sacrament for the participants. The animal was a type of Christ. Jesus' blood is the only blood that truly remits sins. But in these sacrifices, Jesus was presented to OT believers even though they didn't fully know it.
OK, I personally do not agree, and could take the discussion further, but I have already derailed your thread enough, so I apologize for that. If you would like to continue I am open for it, just shoot me a PM or perhaps start a thread and let me know. :)
 
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Catholics and Orthodox believe that the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The elements become the body and blood of Jesus and the church offers Jesus to the Father along with her other offerings and her whole self. For this reason, an ordained priesthood is important, there's an altar, there's a tabernacle to hold the elements which are not used, and other features which go along with sacerdotalism.

A virtue of this view is that it is very much in line with OT worship. In OT worship, a sacrifice was brought to the altar, a priest would offer it up, and the worshipper would consume some of the sacrifice (though this was not the case in every kind of sacrifice - the burnt offering was totally consumed in the fire of the altar). If Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism then this makes some sense. Jesus is our sacrifice, our Passover lamb - the NT makes this plain. Also we are to consume his body and blood which was offered up as a propitiation for our sins. This would have made a lot of sense to a Jewish Christian in the first century.

However a problem with this view is that it does not appear to have New Testament warrant. I can't think of any place in the New Testament where the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice is really made clear. I can think of many opportunities where it could have been made clear, though. But in these instances, the Eucharist is not mentioned. One would think, for instance, of the many times in the book of Hebrews when something like a Eucharistic sacrifice could have been emphasized. But this idea is absent from Hebrews.

Another problem is that the idea of a Eucharistic sacrifice appears to be missing from the literature of the apostolic fathers. This idea isn't really solidified until the third century, as far as I can tell.

Jesus is our sacrifice. Jesus is our high priest. Through Jesus we have access to the Father. But should the earthly celebration of the Eucharist be regarded as a sacrifice?
The present age is a time of grace, an opportunity for the world to recognise their sin and come to repentance, just as in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27). Because the blood of Jesus has been spilled in order for such mercy, no other blood can be offered that will be acceptable in God's sight (Hebrews 10:29, Hebrews 10:4).

Zechariah wrote that they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and be in bitterness, as in the bitterness of the first-born. It is a moment of most solemn reverence for us, as we acknowledge the severe cost of our every day. Jesus also said that He would not drink of the fruit of the vine until He would drink it anew in His father's kingdom - so we acknowledge His presence in the midst of us, as we gather in His name to remember Him.

The priest who has the assignment to administer the sacraments, is designated to represent Jesus Christ (that is to say that The Holy Spirit operates through the priest). It is Him whom we address "Our Father" (who art in heaven). In a community whose faith is sufficiently established as the intention of Christianity intends (Galatians 4:19), we would recognise Him in other members of the congregation too (1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

There must have been a time during the early church where those who were partaking had not remained on the path of faith such as to remain within the spirit of Christ (they had "fallen asleep" - 1 Corinthians 11:30, Luke 9:27, John 15:6, etc). A natural solution to this problem is the appointment of a suitably learned officiate who would serve to represent Jesus Christ faithfully, so as to identify, convict and heal those who were at risk of judgement as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:27. That officiate would recognise a person who had not presented his self sanctified in the spirit of Christ (eg: Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 4:2-3, 1 John 3:9-13). His responsibility would be to convict that one of his sin and bring him to repentance, or to guard him from sinning against the body and blood of Christ so as to achieve this through ministry at another time. 1 Corinthians 11:34 shows this - that St. Paul was intending to "put things in order" when he arrived to them.

These days however, after 2,000 years of the false teachers having introduced destructive heresies and thereby empowering counterfeit spirits that sow confusion and take captives through deceit (2 Peter 2:1-3, John 10:10), the churches have fallen back into the same mode of operation as the "lost house of Israel" was operating in Jesus' time - because they had become constrained by their systemic rules of practice and were not able to exercise crude righteousness through discerning the spirit (John 4:23, Matthew 21:35).

Jesus was constantly convicting them for condemning the innocent and opposing the truth by means of their man-made systems (eg: Matthew 21:13, John 5:43, Matthew 12:7), and this is what we see happening within churches these days, where the reality of Jesus Christ in the priest isn't acknowledged - rather the operations are more systematic - "because that's the way it was established by the early church fathers".
 
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Yes I am familiar with the Didache material on the subject. It's hard to tell when this was written though.

The Didache contains a few elements that are clearly Jewish, so I suspect it is pretty early. Some scholars think it could be mid first century.
 
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Eucharist means thanksgiving. There were thanksgiving offerings in the temple.

Indeed it does mean thanksgiving. However that term is not used to name the ritual in the NT itself. So the very name given to it by Catholic theology (which believes it's a sacrifice) is sort of begging the question.

I don't have any problem with the name, but I don't think that this is evidence for the sacrificial view.
 
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Indeed it does mean thanksgiving. However that term is not used to name the ritual in the NT itself. So the very name given to it by Catholic theology (which believes it's a sacrifice) is sort of begging the question.

I don't have any problem with the name, but I don't think that this is evidence for the sacrificial view.

Hmmm, eucharist is translated thanks.

Mt. 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

Mk. 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

Lk. 22:17, 19 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: ... And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Cor. 11:23-25 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Giving thanks in remembrance is not to say the thanksgiving is a sacrifice.
 
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Q: Is the "Eucharist" a "Sacrifice"?
A: According to the Bible, NO!

Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
 
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