The Gathering Together to Him

Servant232 · Jan 17, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying that Christianity is a false doctrine?

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There are many doctrines in "Christianity" and many of them are false.

Galatians 3:29 Isaiah 41:8

The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is false.

Christmas and easter are pagan holidays, celebrating the days of other gods in His face.

The doctrine that says YESHUA by keeping the Torah, means I don't have to Keep It is a false doctrine.

And Because the Majority of His people reject His Torah, they are without Knowledge.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou hast forgotten the Torah of thy Elohim, I will also forget thy children.

Eze 34:10

Thus saith Adonai YHWH; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require My flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

Jer 3:22
Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto Thee; for thou art YHWH our Elohim.

Hence, It is just like YESHUA said it would be

That Many would come in His Name, Saying that He is the Messiah and would lead many astray because they are false shepherds, proclaiming false prophesies that will never occur. Matthew 24:5

The false teachers say YESHUA is the Messiah, But then they attribute to Him characteristics that are not true... Another Jesus and Paul said

2Co 11:4

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

BABerean2 · Jan 17, 2018

Servant232 said:
The doctrine that says YESHUA by keeping the Torah, means I don't have to Keep It is a false doctrine.

Without a manmade temple you have never kept it.
If a temple is rebuilt, do you think you can save yourself through the works of the law?

Our faith is not about what you are attempting to do.
It is about what He has already done.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Peter called the Law of Moses a "yoke" they had not been able to bear, but you think you have done what Peter said they had not done.

We know he was not talking about circumcision, because it is something they did bear.

The Judaisers are still with us today.

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Davy · Jan 17, 2018

Thank God we don't have to rely on the stupidity and deception of men like Thomas Ice, because Apostle Paul made it easy to know that our "gathering" won't happen until that "man of sin" is revealed, and no play on words like Greek apostasia can change that order.

2 Thess 2:1-4
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

And the FACT that "man of sin" MUST FIRST be revealed, means Christ's Church will still be here on earth when that coming Antichrist shows up, just like the 1st century Church fathers also believed.

So let Thomas Ice play with that one, who will be found out to be a charlatan.

Revealing Times said:
I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 years.

You seem to be off on everything brother.

Servant232 · Jan 17, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Without a manmade temple you have never kept it.

Our faith is not about what you are attempting to do.
It is about what He has already done.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Peter called the Law of Moses a "yoke" they had not been able to bear, but you think you have done what Peter said they had not done.

We know he was not talking about circumcision, because it is something they did bear.

The Judaisers are still with us today.

.

Let's get some context for the Yoke which neither our fathers nor are we able to bear?

The question that is being addressed in Acts 15 is to whether or not a New Convert has to be circumcised to be saved. Acts of the Apostles 15:1

The letter that Paul wrote to the Galatians is all about it, and Paul concludes by saying they can go emasculate themselves. Galatians 5:12

emasculate

to cut off, amputate

If a little is what is needed to be saved, go for it all!

The burden is Adult Circumcision, All you need to do is Receive YESHUA, go under the knife and you will be saved.

Context Matters

And what is the decision they make concerning these New Converts in order for them to be accepted into the Congregation

Four things

Acts of the Apostles 15:20

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

pollutions of idols: The first into the second commandment Exodus 20:3

fornication: 2nd and 7th Commandment... Fornication with other gods, and sexual sin.

from things strangled - Dietary Law on How an animal that is to be eaten is killed.

from blood - Dietary Law on what is to be eaten

Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 1:16

Because it is written, Be ye Holy; for I am Holy.

Where is this Written, Leviticus 11:44 A chapter on what to eat and not eat.

Peter was taught not to call any man common or unclean that was all. Acts of the Apostles 10:28

Now does that mean that since murder, stealing or any of the other commandments were not mentioned, are those ones the burden that our fathers' just could not keep?

Which commandments are the Burden? ... Taking His Name in vain, bowing down to idols, murder, stealing, which commandment would you find most burdensome if you thought you should keep them... which ones?....

Why Only four then?

Because the New Converts will Learn Moses, The rest of what the Torah teaches on The Sabbath... Acts of the Apostles 15:21

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

By Faith

BABerean2 · Jan 17, 2018

Servant232 said:
Let's get some context for the Yoke which neither our fathers nor are we able to bear?

The question that is being addressed in Acts 15 is to whether or not a New Convert has to be circumcised to be saved. Acts of the Apostles 15:1

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Peter was circumcised on the 8th day, as were all of the Israelite men.
Therefore, the "yoke" they could not bear was not a reference to circumcision.

It was a reference to the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" from Galatians chapter 4.

It is the "ministry of death written and engraved on stones" found in 2 Corinthians chapter 3.

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Servant232 · Jan 17, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Peter was circumcised on the 8th day, as were all of the Israelite men.
Therefore, the "yoke" they could not bear was not a reference to circumcision.

It was a reference to the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" from Galatians chapter 4.

It is the "ministry of death written and engraved on stones" found in 2 Corinthians chapter 3.

.

It's amazing how you ignore things like - Do we make void the Torah By faith, God Forbid, no, we establish the Torah. Romans 3:31

Here is How Paul feels about the Torah of YHWH

Romans 7:22
For I delight in the Torah of YHWH after the inward man:

He delighted In it.

He Kept The Torah, False Witnesses claimed that he didn't Acts of the Apostles 21:24

He said to Imitate him as he Imatated Messiah 1 Corinthians 11:1

Have you ever heard of the concept of putting the cart before the horse, well you threw away the cart, so it doesn't matter.

and then the horse died.

... that's how it goes.

Yes, to keep the Torah in the flesh for salvation is a burden... It was mission Impossible from the Beginning because it was not pursued by Faith...

But If we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, His Blood cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Isaiah 51:4

Hearken unto Me, My people; and give ear unto Me, O My nation: for a TORAH shall proceed from Me, and I will make My judgment to rest for a Light of the people.

His Instructions, His Torah Proceeds from Him, It is the representation of His Character - He could no more do away with His Word, the Torah than He could do away with Himself

Heaven and Earth will pass away, But His Words Never Will. Psalms 119:89

How to Know that you Love the Children of God 1 John 5:2

How to Love God 1 John 5:3

BABerean2 · Jan 17, 2018

Servant232 said:
How to Know that you Love the Children of God 1 John 5:2

Torah, Torah, Torah...

Every time you see the word "commandment" or "law" you turn it into the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" (Galatians 4), which is "the ministry of death written and engraved on stones" (2 Cor. 3:6-8), and the "yoke" that Peter said he could not keep. (Acts 15)

It is the "bait and switch" strategy.

And then you claim that you are keeping the covenant that only Christ has every kept.
It is a works-based salvation.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Christ is our Sabbath rest, every day of the week.

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Servant232 · Jan 17, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Torah, Torah, Torah...

Every time you see the word "commandment" or "law" you turn it into the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" (Galatians 4), which is "the ministry of death written and engraved on stones" (2 Cor. 3:6-8), and the "yoke" that Peter said he could not keep. (Acts 15)

It is the "bait and switch" strategy.

And then you claim that you are keeping the covenant that only Christ has every kept.
It is a works-based salvation.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Christ is our Sabbath rest, every day of the week.

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Substitute Berean number #2 this is my last response to you - Because If you want to believe that keeping the commandments are grievous, which they are not, then that is your prerogative to do, it always has been ... Abraham Delighted in the Torah and kept It, As did David, Paul and Even Noah, YHWH told him to Take Seven pairs of the Animals that were clean and only one pair of the ones that were not; All the Patriarchs only offered Clean Beasts to YHWH, Before He said Remember the Sabbath, Set apart from When?

The very Beginning, The Seventh Day of Creation, that is when it YHWH Sanctified The Sabbath, not on Mt Sinai, why the command to keep it starts with REMEMBER

Noah Genesis 7:2 Abraham Genesis 26:5 David Psalms 40:8 Paul Romans 7:22

All of these verses will be ignored by you anyways, in favor of whatever excuse you can find for being disobedient, Or Why you do Not Believe in the New Covenant Promise that He would Write His Torah upon the Hearts and Minds of His People...

And He does not Change, He is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever.

Titus 3:10 ... Berean number 2 , if you believe the Scriptures, do the same

Thank you

BABerean2 · Jan 17, 2018

Servant232 said:
Abraham Delighted in the Torah and kept It, As did David,

Abraham kept the commandments below, that he was given.
Go to a land that I will show you.
Circumcise your male offspring.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

David committed adultery with Uriah's wife and conspired to have Uriah killed.

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jgr · Jan 17, 2018

Revealing Times said:
The Latin Vulgate used DEPART...Its clear to everyone actually accept you post tribbers that its speaking about a Rapture (Gathering tgether unto Christ) and that NOWHERE is the FAITH ever mentioned in the passage.

The Facts are the facts. The first 7 English translations say DEPARTURE. The Latin Vulgate for 1100 years before the KJV said DEPARTURE. Nowhere is FAITH MENTIONED !!

The Church DEPARTS before the Man of Sin comes on the scene, bit Satan is real busy deceiving.

The speculation of apostasia as spatial rather than spiritual departure first appeared in 1895. It was unheard of prior to that time.

Departure as rapture is not found in a single contemporary English Bible translation in existence, including Darby and Scofield.

I contacted the Lockman Foundation, producers of the acclaimed NASB translation.

The NASB translators commented on the article in which Thomas Ice attempts to remake 2 Thess. 2:3 in the dispensational image of spatial departure:

"The online article cited offers arguments which are incorrect. The verb that apostasia comes from has several meanings, but the main meanings include "revolt," "desert," "fall away," and even "become a backslider." The noun apostasia is not automatically capable of having all of the meanings that the verb does. The way the meaning of a word is determined is by examining how it is used, and apostasia is consistently used of revolting, rebellion, and abandoning a belief system. Aside from 2 Thess 2:3 it is only found in Acts 21:21 in the New Testament, where it is used of abandoning the Law of Moses. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it occurs in Josh 22:22, 2 Chr 29:19, and 1 Macc 2:15, and in each verse it refers to apostasy or rebellion.

It is interesting that the writer also cites Liddell and Scott (now LSJM) in support, observing that the first definitions are "defection" and "revolt." He fails to mention that LSJM immediately add, "especially in a religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy," and then go on to cite not only Josh 22:22 but also 2 Thess 2:3. So what the writer states is simply a misleading presentation of the evidence. The argument about the translation shift is irrelevant in view of the evidence for the correct meaning, and this argument is also questionable. "Departure" seems not to have meant simply to leave a place, but to separate from someone or something. For these and other reasons the NASB translators are confident about the meaning "apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:3."

Servant232 · Jan 18, 2018

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted "The Weightier Matters of the Torah", Judgment, Mercy, and Faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

For those that say YESHUA did away with His Torah - Then By their own reasoning, He did away with Judgment and Mercy and Faith also, the most Important issues of the Torah = Instructions.

In reply to the next post

Have it your way, with extra bacon. Isaiah 66:15 Isaiah 66:17

OY VEY

And to make one thing perfectly clear, No one is saved by keeping His Instructions/Torah on how to Live a Righteous life - Salvation is only through the precious blood of Mashiach, redeeming us by laying down His Life for us while we were yet sinners.

As the fathers were redeemed by the blood on the doorposts and lentil, not based on what they had done... If by faith the blood was there, Grace ~ Passed Over

Then they were given instructions on stone on How to live as a redeemed people

We are given the same instructions to follow upon new hearts of flesh if we let Him. But to say the least, the majority who say they know Him are stiffnecked.

He found fault with the Priesthood, not His Torah..

The priesthood changed... Not His Instructions on how to walk in the Light.

The High Priest

Adonai YESHUA Mashiach

BABerean2 · Jan 19, 2018

Servant232 said:
For those that say YESHUA did away with His Torah, Then By their own reasoning, He did away with Judgment and Mercy and Faith also, the most Important issues of the Torah = Instructions.

When the contract to build a new house is completed that contract is not done away with.
It is fulfilled, and therefore becomes "obsolete" as we find in Hebrews 8:13.

The Master Carpenter has built us a New House out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.

He did for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

We are now under the Law of Christ, found at the beginning of John 15:10 and the scripture found below.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Based on the scripture below, we are not come to Mount Sinai.
This passage reveals the contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Christ fulfilled the Sinai Covenant, because you cannot "do" it.

If you can fulfill the Sinai Covenant why did Christ have to die ?

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The Gathering Together to Him

Servant232

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