This commonly goes under the guise of replacement theology known in my earlier days as British Israelism. It very cold today and have the extra time.
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Is Israel holy? Not by the Scripture I read. Jesus even said they where of their father the devil. Yes Israel is spoken of as an olive tree. An olive tree consisted of several stems and not branches. Those stems are also spoken of as branches. We're not talking about the olive tree relatives of today.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
This says graft in among them. It doesn't say graft into them. Big difference. Now what do we partake of? Israel ? No. Jesus discusses this in Jn 15. Paul discusses it in Eph 2. Neither mention anything about being in Israel.
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
What bearest thee? Israel? No again. Jn 15 applies here.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
What was or is their unbelief? Isn't it refusal to accept Jesus as their Messiah? Jn 10 applies here. One can only enter through the Door. The Door is Jesus.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
In-other-words non acceptance of Jesus and the redemption He provides will lock one out.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
What is the condition of this verse? What is His goodness? Is it following the law? Not according to Jn 15:10 or I Jn 3:23.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
What? They're natural Jews being descendants of Jacob. How can it be they're no longer of that blood line? They believe they're descendants of Abraham their father as they confessed to Jesus. What is their unbelief? Isn't refusal to accept Jesus as their Messiah/Redeemer - the Root?
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
This verse should make it clear they weren't being graft into Israel of which they're already a part of. Was Jesus sent to an olive tree? No, because of Gen 3:15.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The church nor the new covenant replace Israel either as a nation or chosen people.
Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
This is a passage talking to Israel (God's chosen people) and about those who aren't currently Israeli. This doesn't imply others will become Israeli.
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
There's nothing in the above quote indicating a Christian becomes part of Israel either as a physical nation or spiritually. We are fellow citizens with the saints. Israel isn't known as saints. Read about their punishment for failure (sin).
The Gospel has been preached to both giving all the same opportunity of redemption. Redemption requires nothing of or from the law to obtain or maintain. Acts proves this without doubt.
Jesus also support this with - Jn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Here Jesus doesn't bring the other sheep into "this" (Israel) fold. This also means the "one fold" can't be Israel. This lines up perfectly with Hosea 2:23.
The Church is the Bride of Jesus and not God's divorced wife (Israel). There's no passage found in the Bible about the Church being divorced. The Church isn't Israel. Neither are Christians Israeli.
Hello Friend nice to see you again hope it is not too cold where you are.
You have a misunderstanding of the scripture you quote from Ramans 11 which is your foundation for your post above. The scripture you quote in Romans 11:16 is referring to Christ and the resurrection from the dead and also ABIDING in Christ for those that are living and understaning who God's new Israel is under the
NEW Covenant.
Here let's have a look at the scriptures.......
Rom 11:16
For if the
firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and
if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Resurrection from the dead....
Lev 23:10-22 Feast of Firstfruits (Shadow fulfilled in the resurrection of Jesus)
links to....
1Co 15
20, But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15
23, But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Abiding in Christ for the living branches that are now grafted in (Gentiles and Jews; are now God's Israel).....
Trees represent people (Mark 8:22-24; Jer 17:8) .....
Romans 11
16, For if the
firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and
if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17, And if
some of the branches be broken off, and
thou, being a wild olive tree, <Gentile Believer> wert graffed in among them <Jews>, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree <Christ>;
18, Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19, Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20, Well;
because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21, For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22, Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,
if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23, And they also,
if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24, For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25, For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27, For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
BELIEVING Gentiles are nows grafted in with BELIEVING Jews who are now God's Israel.....
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He says not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, AND TO YOUR SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST (
Galatians 3:16)
Abraham’s seed is Israel............................................
THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE (
Galatians 3:28).
No explanation needed, believe God's Word, and again..........................
FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED (
Romans 9:6).
FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (
Romans 2:28-29)
God's Israel...............
Galatians 3:28-29,
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Colossians 3:11,
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Romans 10:11-13,
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 2:28-29,
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The New Covenant is for God's Israel..........................
Jeremiah 31:33-4,
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 8:10-12,
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 10:14-17,
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Galatians 3:29,
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
The New Covenant is for God's Israel which represent God’s followers the believers. If you are not part of God's Israel you are not part of the New Covenant (
Hebrews 8:10-12).
God's Israel are those that believe the Word of God and follow it and is why Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments (
John 14:15)
Abiding in Chrsit by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING his WORD...
John 15
10,
If you keep My commandments,
you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
2 John 1v9 whoever transgresses and
does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
John 15
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that
does not bear fruit He takes away; and every
branch that
bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
This is the fruit of the Spirit, namely:
Galatians 5 22 But the
fruit of the Spirit is
love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Without Christ, we have not the Spirit.
Romans 8v9 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
So in order to live by the Spirit (producing fruit,
which is of God), we are to believe and obey Christ’s doctrine (abiding in Him). And here is the proof in the next verses.
Acts 5
32, And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the
Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Back to John 15...
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you <the Word of God in us: see verse 7 below>.
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me <faith in God's Word>.
No fruit can be produced unless you are obedient to the doctrine of Christ.
The
Fruit of the Spirit is the outcome of Obedience to Christ (all His Words, His Doctrine: see
Acts 5:32; 2 john 1:9 above)
5 “I am the vine, you
are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me <the Word of God>, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Continued disobedience (living in willful sin) or not believing God results in condemnation.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
The ultimate objective is the bearing of fruit to the glory of God the Father. It is the
character of godliness formed in you (Fruit of the Spirit).
Which is not possible without your obedience which is by faith in God's Word (abiding in Him)
Your disobedience = No Fruit Possible.
No fruit = Branch cut off
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
-herein above ^^^ lies the definition of abiding in Him. It is the fruit of faith
11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and
that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
Jesus laid down His life for His friends v13
Jesus calls us His friends if we obey his commands v14 we obey him by faith (to love one another)
Those who disobey His commands are not His friends v14
Therefore those who disobey His commands do not partake of Christ’s death on the cross v13 and v14. They haven’t died to self. Their old man is not identified with Christ on the cross.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17
These things I command you, that you love one another.
In the above verses 15 to 17 we have:
Election (verse 16)
Obedience by faith in God's Word (verse 17) – that’s
your part by the way.
Fruit bearing (verse 16) – Christ's nature being formed in you by faith (
Galatians 4v19).
God does this part if you will honour your part in faith in His Word. Abide in the vine and the fruit will come.
How is following Jesus by faith because you love him following the law when Jesus himself says If you love me keep my Commandments (Jonn 14:15)? This is indeed the NEW Covenant of God's Law written on the heart through Faith (Hebrew 8:10-12). Love is the fulfilling of the LAW (Romans 13:8-12) in those who walk by Faith in His Spirit of LOVE (Romans 8:1-4) and which as Jesus says hang all the law and the prophets (Matt 22:40)
It's your claim following Jesus means keeping the law. Heb 8:9 won't allow your position to be true. This is also part of the often quoted Jeremiah. Here you avoid the statement of v 9 maybe because it's a single sentence in Hebrews.
It is not my claim that following Jesus means keeping the LAW because without Christ we cannot. God's LAW shows us what SIN is and shows us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour. Without God's LAW you cannot know what SIN is and your need of a Savior from SIN. The GOOD NEWS is that we have a Savior that saves the SINNER from SIN not just by His Death but by FAITH in HIS WORD. It is by FAITH that works by LOVE that God's LAW is fulfilled in those who BELIEVE and is why Jesus says (not me) "If you LOVE me KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS (John 14:15)
Love isn't keeping the law in Rom 13. I can't connect your reference from Romans 8 having anything to do with your statement.
My FRIEND this is the NEW Covenant. This is the meaning of Jeremiah 31; Hebrews 8 and 10. God's LAW is written in the heart through FAITH by LOVE. These are the two great commandments on which all the LAW and the prophets hang.....
LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF GOD’S LAW IN THOSE WHO BELIEVE
You cannot separate God’s Law of love from the 10 commandments because they are connected to each other. There is no need for confusion here. God’s Word makes it very clear.
Let's have a look................................................
What does Jesus say when he talk about the commandments. Jesus is quoting from Old testament scriptures of
Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.................
Matthew 22
36, Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38, This is the first and great commandment.
39, And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40, ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.
Let's get clearer......................................................
Matthew 19
16, And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17, And he said unto him, Why call thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: BUT IF YOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
18, He saith unto him, WHICH? JESUS SAID,
THOU SHALT NOT MURDER, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, HONOR YOU MOTHER AND FATHER AND THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF
20, The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21, Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. <Jesus showed him that he may have fulfilled His duty of love to his neighbor but not to God breaking commandment 1 and 2 loving riches more than God>
Well Jesus makes it very clear that what he is talking about it is the 10 commandments of God's Law.
What about James................................................................
James 2
8, If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF, ye do well:
9, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10, FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE SHALL BE GUILTY OF ALL.
11, FOR HE THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY SAID ALSO DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY AND YOU KILL, YOU HAVE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW.
12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Well James makes it very clear what he is talking about when he talks about the Royal Law of love. He is talking about the 10 commandments. So Jesus and James both agree that they are talking about God's 10 commandments which also include the 4th commandment which is one of the ten.
What about Paul? He wrote a lot of books in God's Word...........................
Romans 13
8, Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.
9, For this, T
HOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore
LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.
Paul makes it very clear what he is talking about as well when he is talking about God's Law. It seems like Jesus, James and Paul all agree together what it is they are referring to when talking about God's Law. They are all referring to God's 10 commandments which includes the 4th commandment which is one of the ten (Exodus 20:1-17)
So now that God's Word shows us what it is referring to. No need to guess, what are talking about, God’s Law of Love is demonstrated by OBEDIENCE to God's 10 commandments. It is only through Faith that works by love that anyone can walk in the Spirit which produces the fruit of obedience because love is the fulfilling of God’s Law in those that walk by faith and not by sight.
Well all of the above completely adresses your post with God's Word. If you do not agree please adress this post and all the scriptures in them. I see you have not adressed my last posts either. This is ok you do not need to maybe you can pray about them at home.
.........
God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and like any of the ten, i
f we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
There is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to worship God on Sunday in it's place.
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
