A theory of Christianity

Almost there said:

Obviously that is not what Christ taught, but it is an interesting thought exercise. I heard a couple of others I liked that helped me interpret life. Neither even suggests it's the truth. Rather, they are there to make you think about how to interpret your life and/or how you treat others.

First one:

Imagine that before you were born you were allowed to choose the environment into which you were born, specifically because in this life you desired to learn specific lessons. i.e. you chose the country you live in, the parents you have, etc.

It causes you to interpret the problems in your life very differently. For starters, you see the "hard stuff" as things that are supposed to be hard, in order to teach you what you need to learn.

Second one:
Imagine there is such a thing as reincarnation and, as in the first thought exercise, you are supposed to learn certain things in this life. However, the fun twist is this: When you die, you come back as someone else that may have actually lived before you're last life's timeline. e.g. you could die as a rich man of old age in 1990, and be reincarnated a girl in 1200 north Africa.

And here is the fun part: Every single person that ever lived is you. This planet is occupied by one person, in billions of finite length linear time incarnations: you.

How does that make you feel about all the people you encounter every day? Does it motivate you to treat them any differently?

Note: I'm not saying this has anything to do with Christianity. It doesn't. But it broadens ones mind to think about stuff differently. And let me tell you, our condition and the next age are certainly far different than how we actually imagine them to be, almost certainly.

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That sort of stuff is found in the Christian tradition, particularly in mystics such as John Donne. I'm sure you have heard the saying, "Do not ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"? That was taken from one of his meditations, and it expresses similar sentiments. Indeed, a real Christian should empathize and identify with other people, so there is a measure of truth there. And it is true that in some sense, the whole of humanity is bound in a unity.

GrowingSmaller said:

But isn't the Protestant spirit, each to their own conscience?

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No.

GrowingSmaller said:

My closest guess is Christ would be the represtetative "function" of our sins, in that its the impact of them that good people die, like a maths equation with inputs and a functional output.

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Well, no.

If you're interested in what we believe, may I recommend the little book Mere Christianity, by c. S. Lewis?

GrowingSmaller said:

I like to ponder things and just wanted to share. I once read a Jewish Rabbi who said that the bible was happening now, for each of us, and all of the stories were at once part of our own lives.

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There's a lot of truth in that. A number of things in Sacred Scripture are real historical events and also universal archetypes. I am Adam, I am Cain, I am Pharaoh, I am the Ten Spies, I am Judas, I am Antichrist.

The cup Jesus is referring to, that he wishes to be taken away, is a poetic way of talking about suffering. It isn't directly connected to the cup of the Eucharist/Lord's Supper, which has more to do with blood being associated with life (as in "life-force", spirit, qi, etc.), not suffering.

GrowingSmaller said:

So seder or not, what is the eucharistis version of events meant to mean?? I am not that interested in whether its the literal body and blood or not, unless that helps me get it. If the early Christians were more Jewish, how does that make sense of Christian sorteriology.

My closest guess is Christ would be the represtetative "function" of our sins, in that its the impact of them that good people die, like a maths equation with inputs and a functional output. You have to humble yourself to accept that your sins cause that kind of event.

In doing so the "ontological gap" in the soul is filled, like a imprint of a foot in the sand fills with water, so the imprint of sin in the soul and the void it creates is filled with the saving "shape of" Christ.... like some kind of symmetry, I am not trying to be cheeky at all. But its an unnerving symmetry.

Symmetry, like some kind of metaphysical mirror of mans depth psychology. Slightly like the "shadow" in Jungian analysis, the Cross of Christ is hard to bear but a part of life. Otherwise, I'm at a loss as to the interpretation.

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Christians tend to view messiah's work as dealing only with sin. The truth is, sin is one of many things His work accomplished or will accomplish. Each feast, including the Sabbath by the way, points to various aspects of His work. In general, the spring feast deal with His first coming and the fall feasts deal with His return (I said in general, there is some overlap). More specifically, each feast breaks down to smaller pictures and none has as many as Passover/Unleavened Bread. When going through a Seder, we see pictures of Him, His character, and His work that go to depths we have not seen just reading the bible alone. These are all IN the bible, but when you see them played out in something like a Seder, they come alive more and go to depths you hadn't previously seen. That is why knowing the that the Last Supper being a Seder helps us understand better what the pictures were teaching.

The 3rd of 4 cups of wine in the dinner, the cup of redemption... Passover is about redeeming the firstborn... it is NOT a sin sacrifice (nowhere in the Tanach, OT, will we find the Pesach/Passover as a sin sacrifice) and thus that 3rd cup revealing that His blood redeems the first born of God because He used that cup to point to His covenantal blood. Likewise, the afikomen, the middle piece of 3 pieces of matzah (unleavened bread) that was taken out, broken and one piece hidden. When it comes back to the table (as if resurrected) after the main meal... it is used as a kind of "dessert" but He used that broken piece that resurrected during the meal to point to His body which would also be broken for the first born.

GrowingSmaller said:

If the early Christians were more Jewish, how does that make sense of Christian sorteriology.

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First of all, there is no if. Yeshua and the first disciples were Jewish. Acts 21:20 in Greek tells us that as many as 20,000+ Jews in and around Jerusalem believed Yeshua was Messiah and they continued to be zealous for the Torah (law/instructions of God) as well. That is 1/4 or more of the Jewish population at that time... not exactly how it is taught today. Anyway... why would that not make sense or have any effect on Christian salvation? There is an awakening of Christians to the Torah today... hundreds of thousands now if not over a million, worldwide... now consider Yeshua messiah AND follow the commandments. Perhaps this is just an end-time awakening and therefore has no effect on those who didn't practice in this manner before the awakening. Yeshua followed the commandments, even in Revelation we read about those who have the testimony of Yeshua AND who keep the commandments. Walking as He walked can't be at odds with God's will.

GrowingSmaller said:

I have been reading about "dispensationalism" and the idea that it entails the rebuilding of the Jerusalem temple.

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According to a straightforward view of the book of Revelation:

And they *said to me, "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months."
(Revelation 10:11-11:2)

This indicates that during the final days there will be a Jewish temple on the Temple Mount. Of course, not every Christian believes that Revelation should be read in such a straightforward way. I am unsure of how all of them interpret that passage, but one such commentator (Albert Barnes) says:

"Of course, this could not be understood of the literal temple - whether standing or not - for the exact measure of that was sufficiently well known. The word, then, must be used of something which the temple would denote or represent, and this would properly be the church, considered as the abode of God on the earth."

Of course, I disagree strenuously with that interpretation, as I feel it does damage to the clear meaning of the passage. I simply stated it here to acknowledge that there are very many Christians who do not believe there will be a future Jewish temple.

Is this a popular view, and are there conspiracy theories about it, eg "anti Muslim" thinkers are promoting dispansationalism because it would uproot that pesky mosque thing in Israel?

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It is a popular view, but not a majority view.

If you read the section of Revelation 11 that I quoted, you will see that the outer courts will be "given over to the gentiles". In other words, the new temple would not be on the same footprint as the existing Dome of the Rock Mosque, but they would both coexist on the Temple Mount. This is the prevalent view amongst dispensationalist scholars that I have read.

I likes the idea of various dispensations (i.e. economies of salvation) which seems to fit with a concept of progressive revelation. But how these scholars go from there to the temple i have literally no ideas.

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Hope this post is helpful.

GrowingSmaller said:

Hey yes thanks! Especially if the two holy sites can coexist.

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To be honest, they will only coexist for a very short time according to dispensationalist teachings, as the Lord will return and establish a Kingdom emanating from Jerusalem. At Christ's return there will be an earthquake that will likely destroy both the mosque and the temple.

GrowingSmaller said:

I really like the beatitudes,and find them an inspiring source of spirituality. As a non Christian, and having been to various church meetings, I feel I cant fit in with the worship Jesus aspect of faith. Yet, it is said:

"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

I would like to know, can I be blessed (or even saved) as a non-Christian?If that is I have taken to
heart some of these teachings.

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The beatitudes are beautiful and wonderful, aren't they? As for whether one can be saved apart from faith in Jesus, He said this:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."
(Joh 14:6-11)

He also said:

Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
(Joh 10:7-9)

Also some Muslims like to distinguish between Jesus' Christianity and the Pauline version. Paul turned Jesus into a sacrificial object, whereas Jesus preaching was more of conventional spirituality and morality.(I know of the "behold the Lamb of God" quote form John the baptist).

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All the Apostles were in unison on Christ being an atoning sacrifice on our behalf. Observe what John and Peter wrote:

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
(1st John 1:7)

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1st John 2:2)

For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
(1Pe 1:18-19)

who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the cross, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
(1Pe 2:24)

It is not just Paul that taught that through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection we could have forgiveness of our sins.

If I cant be blessed or saved, is that a Gospel message of Christ or a "spirit breathed" church doctrine?

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You can most certainly be blessed to a certain extent in this life by living a life of love and righteousness according to the Law, but according to Jesus Himself, "no man comes to the Father" apart from Him.

Jesus also said in the gospel of John:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:16-18)

Hope this helps.

GrowingSmaller said:

I like to ponder things and just wanted to share. I once read a Jewish Rabbi who said that the bible was happening now, for each of us, and all of the stories were at once part of our own lives.

What about this as a speculative interpretation:

For every moment there is a temptation, for every sin there is a fall, for every fall there is a victim, for every victim there is a cross and a Christ.

So in terms of the "deadly sins" for greed there may be a poverty stricken Christ, and for pride there may be a rejected Christ etc.


I am still trying to make sense of the Eucharistic service, but maybe its like a cosmogram of the fallen world and the victims of sin within it??? And aids meditation, causes distress, and therefore reforms the heart?

Cosmogram - Wikipedia

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If you are trying to be Christian and still breaking the Ten Commandments or any one of them on a regular basis, then your profession of faith will do you no good. You need to go to Psalm 51 and pray that prayer to God, and then ask God for a spirit of repentance (if you really mean business with God) and saving faith in that Jesus died for you on the cross and rose from the dead to give you eternal life.

It doesn't matter what church you decide to belong to or what religious faith you decide to adopt. Salvation and faith is between you and Christ. That's where the rubber meets the road. It is a narrow gateway and you can only gain entrance if you are prepared to go through it with a spirit of true repentance, abandonment of a sinful lifestyle, determination to put to death your favourite and most enjoyable and attractive sins, and to put your full trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord. If you are not prepared to do that, be honest and don't bother to be religious because it will be a sham.