- Feb 13, 2017
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I still have no idea what that means.
The subject was "holy laughter."
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I still have no idea what that means.
That was your view of the subject, others don't think so.
WOW! Presbyterians are strict Calvinists who would excommunicate you for “Pentacostal” beliefs. How did you manage to become an elder? Did you have to lie to them to get ordained?I don't speak out in tongues at church because I am an elder in a Presbyterian non-Charismatic church.
Being Pentecostal is a theological and doctrinal position. The early Scottish Covenanters, who were the original Presbyterians had Pentecostal manifestations among them, including prophecy. I have a very good text on Pentecostal theology and it is identical to the Westminster Confession (which Presbyterians abide by alongside the Scriptures), except that it acknowledges that the 1 Corinthians spiritual gifts have contunued and are active today. This means that I can be Pentecostal in my theology and a member of the Presbyterian Church at the same time. There are quite a number of Charismatic Presbyterian churches in New Zealand. The only difference between a Pentecostal and a Charismatic is the former started at the turn of the 20th century, and the latter started in 1960. The manifestations and gifts are the same, except most Pentecostals formed their own denominations, while Charismatics stayed in their traditional churches - the ones that allowed the Charismatic nature of their worship to change the nature of the church so that it becomes a Charismatic church. The later movement, The Third Wave, has the same basic theology, except that people who believe in the current operation of the gifts of the Spirit stay in their churches but don't seek the change the nature of their church. This means that one can be a formal Anglican, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Presbyterian, and so on, and still believe in and operate in the gifts, including tongues, prophecy and healing. But these are done in the context of the formal services as permitted my the priest, minister or pastor.+Oscarr Dude, will you please explain how someone is pentacostal AND presbyterian at the same time without being a hypocrite?
No. I have always been open about my background and theology. There are many Presbyterians who have a Charismatic theology. I have a friend who has a prophetic ministry who says that the most powerful prophecies he has ever received came through a group of Presbyterian elders. Perhaps the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand is somewhat different in character to the ones where you are. Of course, there are some very Calvinistic ones here that would not let me be who I am, but I would never go there. In my region, there are five Presbyterian churches, two are Charismatic, one is Calvinist, and two are "middle of the road" between the two. My church is "middle of the road". We have Charismatics in our congregation, but there is no public manifestation of tongues and prophecy. But there is prayer for healing, and some have testimonies of being healed by the power of God.WOW! Presbyterians are strict Calvinists who would excommunicate you for “Pentacostal” beliefs. How did you manage to become an elder? Did you have to lie to them to get ordained?
Pentecostals believe in the Scripture that God has not given us a spirit of fear but of love, power and a sound mind. No sane Pentecostal would get so caught up (as you say) and lose concentration on the road and put other motorists in danger. You misunderstand the manifestation of the Spirit. In normal living, it is not spectacular, but is very self-controlled.I have to wonder what would happen if one were driving down the interstate a 80mph and suddenly got caught up in the spirit?
Did anyone ever answer my question if or not your church rolls on the floor too? I was as respectful as possible with it.
Huh? My view is others don't think so???
Oh, I get it, since your post was incoherent, you now cannot understand mine?
Pentecostals believe in the Scripture that God has not given us a spirit of fear but of love, power and a sound mind. No sane Pentecostal would get so caught up (as you say) and lose concentration on the road and put other motorists in danger. You misunderstand the manifestation of the Spirit. In normal living, it is not spectacular, but is very self-controlled.
I was surprised that you hadn't read my other posts where I said that I was the senior elder in a "middle of the road" non-Charismatic Presbyterian church. The folks know my background and my Pentecostal theology, but anyone attending the services without knowing that would never know that I was Pentecostal. Even in Pentecostal services, which I have visited, I don't go in for the shaking, falling over, rolling around the floor stuff. I have been to services when the pastor has come around trying to get people to fall over, but I resisted him and stay resolutely on my feet. He tried hard to overbalance me backward, but he failed. I saw a woman rolling around the floor and wriggling like a snake in and around the seats, so I went up to the pastor and told him that she needed a demon cast out of her. He didn't appreciate that much. When I have encouraged folks to enter into the gift of tongues, I don't go laying hands on them and shouting in their ears. What I do is to sit them down with a cup of coffee, and quietly go through three steps of faith with them. It is done cold bloodedly and matter of fact. No hype at all,nor is there emotionalism or any type of ecstacy. I take them through the same basic steps of faith as I would when leading someone to the Lord. Then I say, "Now that you have taken those Scriptural steps of faith, you can speak in tongues". Amazingly, they have started speaking some beautiful languages. I tell them that the "ba ba ba" approach is not real tongues language. I did that for one of my fellow Presbyterian elders, and he started speaking a very interesting language, and I know that he is not given to emotionalism at all. He just, as the others, spoke the languages in a very normal and matter-of-fact way. It was when they realised that they had received the gift of tongues that they got somewhat joyful about it.
I am doing some research in response to our dear brother Swordsman about linguistic recording of tongues, seeking to examine both sides of the issue. I found a very good article among all the skeptical ones. I like it because it gives a balanced view, equally examining the positives and negatives. Here is the link:Interesting post
It is interesting to note that any linguist who says that Tspeakers are totally deluded, are making conclusions outside of their competence. As you can see, the research done by these researchers seems to be more comprehensive than that is shown on the Skeptical sites which seem to start with a conclusion and use their research to try and prove it, whereas this article starts with the research and then offers the conclusion based on what they discovered.Interesting post
Just to add a little more to this. One has to do something very very serious to be excommunicated from the Presbyterian Church of NZ. In the 1960s a professor and Presbyterian minister named Lloyd Geering started teaching that there was no personal God, no virgin birth and that Jesus was never an historical Person, and that the miracles of Jesus were not true, and that the gospels and acts were myths, and were written not as true histories but as faith stories. His theology is the same as Bishop Spong, whose meeting I went to in Waikato University in the early 1990s. There was a big heresy trial and it was reported in all the newspapers around the country. It was a big scandal in the Presbyterian Church of NZ. But the trial ended in stalemate, and Geering was permitted to remain as an ordained minister and became professor of Religious Studies at Auckland University. This meant that every university student who studied religious studies in universities around the country studied Geering's views. As a result there was a major division in the Presbyterian Church of NZ, and many members left, some to form others churches like the Trinity Presbyterian Church, and the Free Presbyterian Church and the Grace Presbyterian Church which kept the traditional, Westminster Confession based theology.WOW! Presbyterians are strict Calvinists who would excommunicate you for “Pentacostal” beliefs. How did you manage to become an elder? Did you have to lie to them to get ordained?
It was probably like that in Sodom and Gomorrah too.One has to do something very very serious to be excommunicated from the Presbyterian Church of NZ.
Not in my church. We preach the gospel! And expound the Scriptures.It was probably like that in Sodom and Gomorrah too.
Says a lot about your ‘church’. I can imagine what kind of material is preached/taught; pop psychology? how to keep up with latest trends? how to sin in moderation? Analysis of latest TV shows/movies perhaps?
Not so. We preach holy living as well.. . and do whatever is right in our own eyes.
No. We preach that we should love God and each other. That sums up the whole Law.. . do you preach the "law"?
Well, I wasn't talking to you anyway, so it doesn't matter that we don't continue this dialog.