In Catholic opinion does the bible use : "To know" , "Knew" as a consummating?

Victory123 · Jan 15, 2018

What is meant by "knew" in :

Genesis 4:1Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition)
4 Now Adam KNEW EVE HIS WIFE; and she conceived, and bore Cain, saying," I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord".

What is "knew" in :

Matthew 1:24- When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but KNEW HER NOT until she borne a son; and called his name Jesus. (Yeshua)

Do you think some Catholic Dogma as defined by man, concerning interpreting , "I am the Immaculate Conception" could be in question, due to the above scripture? Mary, according to all historical accounts, never gave the meaning of this Title to Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes. So could Catholic Dogma be wrong concerning : Mary's Perpetual Virginity? Could something else be meant as to her" Perpetual Virginity "? Does it have more to do with being "Born Again" which can be a restoring to a Virginal state concerning the soul?

And if according to Catholic Dogma she was preserved from the stain of "Original Sin" then why does St. Paul say:ROMANS 3:22-24-
…22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.…

Can Dogma contradict the Apostles? I am not saying Mary contradicted them but that man's interpretation seems to.

And if one is born without the stain of Original Sin, do they need a Saviour? Now this concerning Mary and her song: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour". Why would she say this if she was born without sin? We know she was conceived as all others through mother and father, natural conception- in all accounts. Could she have been Immaculately conceived when the Power of the Most High overshadowed her and the Holy Spirit conception of the Word happened?

Could this be what St. Paul means by the "Same Lump"
Romans 9:20-22
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the SAME LUMP one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

I feel it is a worth while discussion considering the many different viewpoints concerning Mary. I think scripture can clear it up. Then the question remains.... when the undeniable truth professed by scripture is found what will people cling to, denominational doctrine or scriptural doctrine?

I will conclude with: I believe in the Apparition at Lourdes, for this reason: my Orthodoxy teaches, that scripture is the Orthodox by which man must be governed . Ones Orthodoxy is measured and approved by God and His Word.

According to historical accounts , Bernadette upon the second visitation of Mary threw Holy water at her and said: " If you are not from God and are evil , go away!" Mary preceded to take out the Rosary and lead Bernadette in Prayer, and within the Rosary we know the "Confessing" of Luke 1:28 and Luke1:42 are in it . And this "Confessing" according to Orthodoxy is the testing of spirits which supports : 1John 4:1-6
1 John 4:1-6King James Version (KJV)
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The Rosary confesses the Ark of the New Covenant= Incarnation, Jesus Christ come in the flesh of Mary, that no evil spirit would ever confess.

A lot to address, please take some time to ponder. I am open to answers in truth concerning my questions God Bless!

Root of Jesse · Jan 15, 2018

Victory123 said:
What is meant by "knew" in :
Genesis 4:1Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition)
4 Now Adam KNEW EVE HIS WIFE; and she conceived, and bore Cain, saying," I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord".

What is "knew" in :

Matthew 1:24- When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but KNEW HER NOT until she borne a son; and called his name Jesus. (Yeshua)

knew means had sexual relations with, in both cases. In Matthew, it means they didn't have relations.

Do you think some Catholic Dogma as defined by man, concerning interpreting , "I am the Immaculate Conception" could be in question, due to the above scripture? Mary, according to all historical accounts, never gave the meaning of this Title to Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes. So could Catholic Dogma be wrong concerning : Mary's Perpetual Virginity? Could something else be meant as to her" Perpetual Virginity "? Does it have more to do with being "Born Again" which can be a restoring to a Virginal state concerning the soul?

Here's the problem with that. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was pronounced before Mary appeared to Bernadette. The way news traveled in those days, a simple peasant like her would not know the expression, which is why it was so astounding when she told the Bishop what Mary said to her.

And if according to Catholic Dogma she was preserved from the stain of "Original Sin" then why does St. Paul say:ROMANS 3:22-24-
…22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.…

Can Dogma contradict the Apostles? I am not saying Mary contradicted them but that man's interpretation seems to.

Here's the thing: Mary needed a savior, but you can be saved before stepping in the dog pile. So Mary was preserved by God from that sin.

And if one is born without the stain of Original Sin, do they need a Saviour? Now this concerning Mary and her song: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour". Why would she say this if she was born without sin? We know she was conceived as all others through mother and father, natural conception- in all accounts. Could she have been Immaculately conceived when the Power of the Most High overshadowed her and the Holy Spirit conception of the Word happened?

Could this be what St. Paul means by the "Same Lump"
Romans 9:20-22
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the SAME LUMP one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

I feel it is a worth while discussion considering the many different viewpoints concerning Mary. I think scripture can clear it up. Then the question remains.... when the undeniable truth professed by scripture is found what will people cling to, denominational doctrine or scriptural doctrine?

I will conclude with: I believe in the Apparition at Lourdes, for this reason: my Orthodoxy teaches, that scripture is the Orthodox by which man must be governed . Ones Orthodoxy is measured and approved by God and His Word.

According to historical accounts , Bernadette upon the second visitation of Mary threw Holy water at her and said: " If you are not from God and are evil , go away!" Mary preceded to take out the Rosary and lead Bernadette in Prayer, and within the Rosary we know the "Confessing" of Luke 1:28 and Luke1:42 are in it . And this "Confessing" according to Orthodoxy is the testing of spirits which supports : 1John 4:1-6
1 John 4:1-6King James Version (KJV)
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The Rosary confesses the Ark of the New Covenant= Incarnation, Jesus Christ come in the flesh of Mary, that no evil spirit would ever confess.

A lot to address, please take some time to ponder. I am open to answers in truth concerning my questions God Bless!

Victory123 · Jan 15, 2018

Root of Jesse said:
knew means had sexual relations with, in both cases. In Matthew, it means they didn't have relations.Here's the problem with that. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was pronounced before Mary appeared to Bernadette. The way news traveled in those days, a simple peasant like her would not know the expression, which is why it was so astounding when she told the Bishop what Mary said to her.Here's the thing: Mary needed a savior, but you can be saved before stepping in the dog pile. So Mary was preserved by God from that sin.

And until which denotes a specific time period?

chevyontheriver · Jan 15, 2018

Victory123 said:
What is meant by "knew"

Are you intending to ask about Mary having sex with Joseph or about Mary being sinless? It seems you have the two all confused with each other. The Immaculate conception is about the birth of Mary. The incarnation is about the birth of Jesus. Often confused.

I see that your moniker says you are Eastern Orthodox. Do they believe Mary was a sinner? Do they believe Mary was not a virgin?

chevyontheriver · Jan 15, 2018

Victory123 said:
And until which denotes a specific time period?

How long was Michel, the wife of David, childless? Until the day she died. Does that mean that on the day of her death she had a child? Or that she died childless? The same 'until' is used there.

Victory123 · Jan 15, 2018

Victory123 said:
What is meant by "knew" in :
Genesis 4:1Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition)
4 Now Adam KNEW EVE HIS WIFE; and she conceived, and bore Cain, saying," I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord".

What is "knew" in :

Matthew 1:24- When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but KNEW HER NOT until she borne a son; and called his name Jesus. (Yeshua)

Do you think some Catholic Dogma as defined by man, concerning interpreting , "I am the Immaculate Conception" could be in question, due to the above scripture? Mary, according to all historical accounts, never gave the meaning of this Title to Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes. So could Catholic Dogma be wrong concerning : Mary's Perpetual Virginity? Could something else be meant as to her" Perpetual Virginity "? Does it have more to do with being "Born Again" which can be a restoring to a Virginal state concerning the soul?

And if according to Catholic Dogma she was preserved from the stain of "Original Sin" then why does St. Paul say:ROMANS 3:22-24-
…22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.…

Can Dogma contradict the Apostles? I am not saying Mary contradicted them but that man's interpretation seems to.

And if one is born without the stain of Original Sin, do they need a Saviour? Now this concerning Mary and her song: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour". Why would she say this if she was born without sin? We know she was conceived as all others through mother and father, natural conception- in all accounts. Could she have been Immaculately conceived when the Power of the Most High overshadowed her and the Holy Spirit conception of the Word happened?

Could this be what St. Paul means by the "Same Lump"
Romans 9:20-22
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the SAME LUMP one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

I feel it is a worth while discussion considering the many different viewpoints concerning Mary. I think scripture can clear it up. Then the question remains.... when the undeniable truth professed by scripture is found what will people cling to, denominational doctrine or scriptural doctrine?

I will conclude with: I believe in the Apparition at Lourdes, for this reason: my Orthodoxy teaches, that scripture is the Orthodox by which man must be governed . Ones Orthodoxy is measured and approved by God and His Word.

According to historical accounts , Bernadette upon the second visitation of Mary threw Holy water at her and said: " If you are not from God and are evil , go away!" Mary preceded to take out the Rosary and lead Bernadette in Prayer, and within the Rosary we know the "Confessing" of Luke 1:28 and Luke1:42 are in it . And this "Confessing" according to Orthodoxy is the testing of spirits which supports : 1John 4:1-6
1 John 4:1-6King James Version (KJV)
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The Rosary confesses the Ark of the New Covenant= Incarnation, Jesus Christ come in the flesh of Mary, that no evil spirit would ever confess.

A lot to address, please take some time to ponder. I am open to answers in truth concerning my questions God Bless!

You say Bernadette whom she told "I am the Immaculate Conception" is not the first to know of this, it was an already established Dogma in which was established by Bartolome Esteban. She as a laity and unlearned did not know what was being told her by Mary. Bartolome Esteban simply said this of Mary, he did not give a definition concerning this he said only she was conceived without original sin. That is not in question. The question is when? The RCC feels it is at her natural conception between a man and woman. I think it means at the CLEAN SPOTLESS CONCEPTION OF CHRIST The INCARNATION BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. This would hold more true to Orthodoxy and scripture. The RCC when establishing this as Dogma gave an interpretation of it in 1854 by Pope Pius. Mary herself did not give the meaning of this to Bernadette or to Bartolome. Which he received by the Holy Spirit. So, what does this mean according to scripture not according to mans doctrine? And can this definition defy the apostles teaching's? Also I never said Bernadette was the first to know, I said she is the one Mary said it to. There was much controversy concerning this doctrine "Immaculate Conception" in the middle ages of the Faith St. Bartolome was of the eastern Orthodox.

[Staff edit].

The Lourdes Apparition of 1858 did not give a meaning . I believe The Rev.12 sign is making things clear now. And I do not believe God is a God of confusion. Dogma must be able to stand with the Apostles.

Victory123 · Jan 15, 2018

chevyontheriver said:
Are you intending to ask about Mary having sex with Joseph or about Mary being sinless? It seems you have the two all confused with each other. The Immaculate conception is about the birth of Mary. The incarnation is about the birth of Jesus. Often confused.

I see that your moniker says you are Eastern Orthodox. Do they believe Mary was a sinner? Do they believe Mary was not a virgin?

Do you know anything about the Greek Orthodox? It predates the RCC. The name Greek Orthodox Church or Greek Orthodoxy, is a term referring to the body of several Churches within the larger communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, whose liturgy is or was traditionally conducted in Koine Greek, the original language of the New Testament, and whose history, traditions, and theology are ...
We believe during the Incarnation and the merits attributed with this , she was made sinless.

I have not confused one with the other Incarnation and Immaculate Conception I am associating one with the other. I believe they are both spontaneous events . One having taken place because of the other and with the other. So, yes to what you asked concerning consummating and all of thee above, concerning Mary. Peoples interpretation is confusing when they say one thing and scripture says another. Catholics say one thing. They even omit parts of scripture which does not fit into their narrative
like the word 'Until"
un·til
ˌənˈtil/
preposition & conjunction
preposition: until; conjunction: until
up to (the point in time or the event mentioned).
concerning Matthew1:24 which speaks to the point of time- up to time mentioned, like people are illiterate
and know not the meaning of words. They contradict the Orthodox faith concerning Mary being born with Original sin. The Greek Orthodox predates RCC and then you have the RCC offspring Protestants who splintered her branch and they say Mary is not Immaculate and all they talk about are the sins of Mary. I am simply saying scripture when looked at without the bias of denominational indoctrination can settle it all.
So, I am asking what I am asking because of the division with all the denominations. I closely follow Orthodoxy so I believe Rev.14 and that there may be more to the Gospel than we presently understand. Orthodoxy believes all beliefs should be by the authority of the Word. Yet this part of scripture is not addressed Matthew 1:24. That is why I posted her. Even the Greek Orthodox church does not discuss this. The protestants are always throwing this into discussions , so I wanted to delve into it.

Victory123 · Jan 15, 2018

chevyontheriver said:
Are you intending to ask about Mary having sex with Joseph or about Mary being sinless? It seems you have the two all confused with each other. The Immaculate conception is about the birth of Mary. The incarnation is about the birth of Jesus. Often confused.

I see that your moniker says you are Eastern Orthodox. Do they believe Mary was a sinner? Do they believe Mary was not a virgin?

Should ones denomination prevent one from seeing truth? Is denomination the the means by which we see truth? Truth is Truth! Good thing Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea ,could see out side of their affiliation or they would have missed the truth too. Truth is Orthodoxy and Truth is Universal and we should all protest against any lie or rejection of the truth regardless of denomination from the east to the west south and north and in actuality Truth is Christianity. And the first to know laid the foundation, should we build something different or contrary to the foundation?

chevyontheriver · Jan 15, 2018

Victory123 said:
Do you know anything about the Greek Orthodox?

I've read Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, Basil, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Athanasius, Eusebius, Ignatius of Antioch, and a handful of other eastern Fathers of the Church. But no, I do not know anything about the contemporary Greek Orthodox. They seem inscrutable to me, that is when they are not denying the validity of my baptism as a Catholic.

By the way, who is your bishop?

chevyontheriver · Jan 15, 2018

Victory123 said:
Should ones denomination prevent one from seeing truth? Is denomination the the means by which we see truth? Truth is Truth!

I asked two fairly simple questions that you sidestepped. Do the Orthodox believe Mary was a sinner? And do the Orthodox believe Mary was not a virgin? These questions could have been answered with a simple 'yes' or a simple 'no', or even an 'I don't know'.

Root of Jesse · Jan 16, 2018

Victory123 said:
And until which denotes a specific time period?

Actually, no. It really doesn't mean much. "Until we meet again" does not mean we will certainly meet again." "wait here until the danger passes" doesn't mean that the danger will pass.

PanDeVida · Jan 17, 2018

Victory123 said:
What is meant by "knew" in :
Genesis 4:1Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition)
4 Now Adam KNEW EVE HIS WIFE; and she conceived, and bore Cain, saying," I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord".

What is "knew" in :

Matthew 1:24- When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but KNEW HER NOT until she borne a son; and called his name Jesus. (Yeshua)

Do you think some Catholic Dogma as defined by man, concerning interpreting , "I am the Immaculate Conception" could be in question, due to the above scripture? Mary, according to all historical accounts, never gave the meaning of this Title to Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes. So could Catholic Dogma be wrong concerning : Mary's Perpetual Virginity? Could something else be meant as to her" Perpetual Virginity "? Does it have more to do with being "Born Again" which can be a restoring to a Virginal state concerning the soul?

And if according to Catholic Dogma she was preserved from the stain of "Original Sin" then why does St. Paul say:ROMANS 3:22-24-
…22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.…

Can Dogma contradict the Apostles? I am not saying Mary contradicted them but that man's interpretation seems to.

And if one is born without the stain of Original Sin, do they need a Saviour? Now this concerning Mary and her song: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour". Why would she say this if she was born without sin? We know she was conceived as all others through mother and father, natural conception- in all accounts. Could she have been Immaculately conceived when the Power of the Most High overshadowed her and the Holy Spirit conception of the Word happened?

Could this be what St. Paul means by the "Same Lump"
Romans 9:20-22
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the SAME LUMP one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

I feel it is a worth while discussion considering the many different viewpoints concerning Mary. I think scripture can clear it up. Then the question remains.... when the undeniable truth professed by scripture is found what will people cling to, denominational doctrine or scriptural doctrine?

I will conclude with: I believe in the Apparition at Lourdes, for this reason: my Orthodoxy teaches, that scripture is the Orthodox by which man must be governed . Ones Orthodoxy is measured and approved by God and His Word.

According to historical accounts , Bernadette upon the second visitation of Mary threw Holy water at her and said: " If you are not from God and are evil , go away!" Mary preceded to take out the Rosary and lead Bernadette in Prayer, and within the Rosary we know the "Confessing" of Luke 1:28 and Luke1:42 are in it . And this "Confessing" according to Orthodoxy is the testing of spirits which supports : 1John 4:1-6
1 John 4:1-6King James Version (KJV)
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The Rosary confesses the Ark of the New Covenant= Incarnation, Jesus Christ come in the flesh of Mary, that no evil spirit would ever confess.

A lot to address, please take some time to ponder. I am open to answers in truth concerning my questions God Bless!

Victory, of course Adam Knew Eve! God had Adam fall into a deep sleep and took a rib from his side and God created Eve.

Victory, "KNEW HER KNOT" does not mean that St. Joseph KNEW here in a sexual way after the birth of Jesus, it does not mean that at all!

Here is a Clue: Victory, do you believe that Jesus Christ will reign forever and ever in His Kingdom???

1 Corinthians 15: 25For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. Victory so does 1 Corinthians 15:25 because the word UNTIL was used mean that Jesus Christ will no longer REING as KING in Heaven??? OF COURSE NOT!!!!

Victory, do you truly believe in your mind that, St. Joseph, would want to have a sexual relationship with Blessed Mother Mary??? Victory, remember now, that St. Joseph did not want anything to do with the Blessed Mother, when he thought that she conceived by a mere man, a took a dream from Heaven to convince St. Joseph that it was by the Power of the Holy Spirit that Mary Conceived the SON of God. Now much more than ever would St. Joseph not want to have a sexual encounter with Mary. SEE, St. Joseph after the Dream KNEW his New Role in the Life of the Holy Family and that was just to be a CAREGIVER!

Victory, Adam and Eve, were created without sin. (The New Adam aka Jesus) and (the New Eve aka Mary) Never KNEW sin. Mary was spared of Original Sin in order to share the same DNA with Her Son Jesus.

Hail white Lily of the Glorious and always Serene Trinity, Hail Brilliant Rose of the garden of Heavenly Delights, Oh you by whom God Wanted to Born and by who's Milk the King of Heaven wanted to be Nourished, Nourish our souls with effusion of Devine Grace. Amen Amen

In Catholic opinion does the bible use : "To know" , "Knew" as a consummating?

What do you think scripture is saying concerning Mary?

It supports Catholic Dogma concerning "Immaculate Conception"

It does not support Catholic Dogma concerning "Immaculate Conception".

Active Member

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Well-Known Member

Similar threads