Where did the teaching of the resurrection come from?

DamianWarS

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Mat 22:23-33 the Sadducees try and trap Jesus with counter-resurrection logic and Jesus proves them wrong. As Christians we believe there will be a resurrection such as 1 Thes 4:16 tells us the dead will rise first when Christ returns and 1 Cor 15:42 shows us the post-resurrected body will be incorruptible or imperishable. It is clear that as Christians we value the resurrection but this understanding seems to be developed dominantly from NT sources. So where did the Sadducees or others during Christ's time get their understanding of the resurrection to come? Could apocryphal books (like the book of Enoch) played a role in this?
 
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tampasteve

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Mostly from the Oral Torah and Tradition from Judaism, there is very little in the written Torah. But Daniel 12:2 is one verse. If we move into the Talmud and Mishna we get a reasonably clear picture of the teachings through the ages.
 
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HereIStand

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Mat 22:23-33 the Sadducees try and trap Jesus with counter-resurrection logic and Jesus proves them wrong. As Christians we believe there will be a resurrection such as 1 Thes 4:16 tells us the dead will rise first when Christ returns and 1 Cor 15:42 shows us the post-resurrected body will be incorruptible or imperishable. It is clear that as Christians we value the resurrection but this understanding seems to be developed dominantly from NT sources. So where did the Sadducees or others during Christ's time get their understanding of the resurrection to come? Could apocryphal books (like the book of Enoch) played a role in this?
It came from the Old Testament, Jewish tradition, and the Old Testament Apocrypha. In response to the Sadducees, Christ citied Exodus 3 to note that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not of the dead "but of the living" awaiting the final resurrection. N.T Wright goes into exhaustive detail on this in his book The Resurrection of the Son of God. He highlights the teaching on the Jewish belief on the resurrection found in 2 Maccabees 7:20-24.
 
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The resurrection was taught by Isaiah the prophet.
Isa. 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
 
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food4thought

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Job also mentions the resurrection of the dead:

I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes--I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!
(Job 19:25-27)
 
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DamianWarS

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It came from the Old Testament, Jewish tradition, and the Old Testament Apocrypha. In response to the Sadducees, Christ citied Exodus 3 to note that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not of the dead "but of the living" awaiting the final resurrection. N.T Wright goes into exhaustive detail on this in his book The Resurrection of the Son of God. He highlights the teaching on the Jewish belief on the resurrection found in 2 Maccabees 7:20-24.
I understand there are some references to the resurrection in the OT that through progressive revelation we understand more clearly however it seems to be very underdeveloped in the OT and there must be more dominate sources that developed the concept in Jesus day.

It feels misplaced and somewhat uncomfortable, I might add, to have look to apocryphal writings to understand Jewish tradition on this subject. Jesus himself avoids such material when he defends it.
 
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food4thought

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In response to the Sadducees, Christ citied Exodus 3 to note that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not of the dead "but of the living" awaiting the final resurrection.

I am sure you know this, but for the sake of others reading, it should be pointed out that Jesus constrained Himself to the Torah (the 1st five books of the OT, written by Moses) because they were the only books that the Sadducees held as inspired and authoritative.

God bless.
 
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BobRyan

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Mat 22:23-33 the Sadducees try and trap Jesus with counter-resurrection logic and Jesus proves them wrong. As Christians we believe there will be a resurrection such as 1 Thes 4:16 tells us the dead will rise first when Christ returns and 1 Cor 15:42 shows us the post-resurrected body will be incorruptible or imperishable. It is clear that as Christians we value the resurrection but this understanding seems to be developed dominantly from NT sources. So where did the Sadducees or others during Christ's time get their understanding of the resurrection to come? Could apocryphal books (like the book of Enoch) played a role in this?

F4T is right that Jesus' doctrine came from the OT.

Job predicted resurrection
David predicted resurrection

Bodily resurrections happened in the OT

Hannah, the mother of Samuel, said. The LORD brings death and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and raises up (1 Samuel 2:6).

Job
For I know my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God (Job 19:25-27).

Although Job knew his body would be destroyed, he also had the promise that God would raise it again someday. Job had the belief in a personal resurrection.

Psalmist
Psalms 16 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption (Psalm 16:9,10).


As for me, I will see your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness (Psalm 17:15).

Daniel And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2).

===========================================


You mentioned the debate Christ had with the Sadducees in Matthew 22 - one thing to ponder slowly is "just exactly HOW did Christ win that debate"??

What argument did Christ make that even the Pharisees in Matthew 22 had to admit that Christ "put them to silence".

What was the logic that Christ used that would have silenced such a hostile group?
 
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eleos1954

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Mat 22:23-33 the Sadducees try and trap Jesus with counter-resurrection logic and Jesus proves them wrong. As Christians we believe there will be a resurrection such as 1 Thes 4:16 tells us the dead will rise first when Christ returns and 1 Cor 15:42 shows us the post-resurrected body will be incorruptible or imperishable. It is clear that as Christians we value the resurrection but this understanding seems to be developed dominantly from NT sources. So where did the Sadducees or others during Christ's time get their understanding of the resurrection to come? Could apocryphal books (like the book of Enoch) played a role in this?

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isaiah 26:19).

Ezekiel 37

12Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people
 
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food4thought

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As Bob reminded me, David predicted the resurrection:

I have set the LORD always before me; Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.
(Psalm 16:8-11)
 
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BobRyan said in post #8:

Job
For I know my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God (Job 19:25-27).

Although Job knew his body would be destroyed, he also had the promise that God would raise it again someday. Job had the belief in a personal resurrection.

That's right.

Also, note that Job spoke the very important truth that our personal resurrection will be in the flesh:

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God . . .

Similarly, Jesus Christ's physical resurrection was foretold in the Old Testament:

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism in order to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts, and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
 
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DamianWarS

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As Bob reminded me, David predicted the resurrection:

I have set the LORD always before me; Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.
(Psalm 16:8-11)

often times in the poetry books Sheol is liken to a state of depression. Through progressive revelation we can look back on this and see it more clearly but OT perspective on a resurrection I don't see as very developed. In this Sadducee confrontation in Mat 22 Jesus gives them an example form the Torah where there are far more clear examples available (like your example) but it seems the Sadducees demanded proof form the torah so Jesus gave it to them and caught them in their own trap.

This to me suggests the the concept of the resurrection was mostly developed outside of Torah and outside of the entire Tanakh through oral traditions when then begs the questions are these oral traditions inspired?
 
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food4thought

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often times in the poetry books Sheol is liken to a state of depression. Through progressive revelation we can look back on this and see it more clearly but OT perspective on a resurrection I don't see as very developed.

The context of Psalm 16 makes it pretty clear that David was speaking of Sheol as the abode of the dead, and that he was expressing confidence in a resurrection.

In this Sadducee confrontation in Mat 22 Jesus gives them an example form the Torah where there are far more clear examples available (like your example) but it seems the Sadducees demanded proof form the torah so Jesus gave it to them and caught them in their own trap.

It is my understanding that the Sadducees only accepted the books of Moses as authoritative, so Jesus was constrained to them to produce evidence for the resurrection that they would accept.

This to me suggests the the concept of the resurrection was mostly developed outside of Torah and outside of the entire Tanakh through oral traditions when then begs the questions are these oral traditions inspired?

If we look at the teaching of the Tanakh, it is clear from the passages we mentioned that there would be a resurrection. There was much speculation in the oral tradition as to the details of the resurrection, but I do not think they were inspired. Jesus and the Apostles had to correct much of what was being taught in these oral traditions... that means they can't be inspired like the Scripture.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I am sure you know this, but for the sake of others reading, it should be pointed out that Jesus constrained Himself to the Torah (the 1st five books of the OT, written by Moses) because they were the only books that the Sadducees held as inspired and authoritative.

God bless.
Nope.
Jesus used the prophecies about Him written in the Book of Enoch, and used the history of the "Book of the Upright/ Book of Jasher".
In the confrontation of the Sadducees Jesus told them they erred, "not knowing Scripture", that in heaven the resurrected saints "do not marry nor are given in marriage, but are like/equal to the Angels in heaven.
Also, Jesus quoted from the writings of the Upright/ the Patriarchal fathers (which writings are compiled and redacted in the "book of the Upright/Jasher)" when He called Abel a "prophet".
 
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food4thought

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Nope.
Jesus used the prophecies about Him written in the Book of Enoch, and used the history of the "Book of the Upright/ Book of Jasher".

Hi yeshuasavedme! Thanks for your reply. This is news to me... could you post a reference from the gospels where Jesus used the prophecies of the book of Enoch (and the reference from the Book of Enoch)? Thanks in advance!

In the confrontation of the Sadducees Jesus told them they erred, "not knowing Scripture", that in heaven the resurrected saints "do not marry nor are given in marriage, but are like/equal to the Angels in heaven.

I'm sorry, I don't see how this relates to what I said. Am I mistaken that the Sadducees only accepted the Torah as authoritative? Or is this an instance where Jesus quotes one of the books you mentioned? I never questioned that Jesus said those things.

Also, Jesus quoted from the writings of the Upright/ the Patriarchal fathers (which writings are compiled and redacted in the "book of the Upright/Jasher)" when He called Abel a "prophet".

Interesting... thank you for pointing that out.
 
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BobRyan

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Hi yeshuasavedme! Thanks for your reply. This is news to me... could you post a reference from the gospels where Jesus used the prophecies of the book of Enoch (and the reference from the Book of Enoch)? Thanks in advance!

That will be a short trip.
 
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BobRyan

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F4T is right that Jesus' doctrine came from the OT.

Job predicted resurrection
David predicted resurrection

Bodily resurrections happened in the OT

Hannah, the mother of Samuel, said. The LORD brings death and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and raises up (1 Samuel 2:6).

Job
For I know my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God (Job 19:25-27).

Although Job knew his body would be destroyed, he also had the promise that God would raise it again someday. Job had the belief in a personal resurrection.

Psalmist
Psalms 16 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption (Psalm 16:9,10).


As for me, I will see your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness (Psalm 17:15).

Daniel And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2).

===========================================


You mentioned the debate Christ had with the Sadducees in Matthew 22 - one thing to ponder slowly is "just exactly HOW did Christ win that debate"??

What argument did Christ make that even the Pharisees in Matthew 22 had to admit that Christ "put them to silence".

What was the logic that Christ used that would have silenced such a hostile group?

This to me suggests the the concept of the resurrection was mostly developed outside of Torah and outside of the entire Tanakh through oral traditions when then begs the questions are these oral traditions inspired?

Your conclusion does not "follow" given the evidence in the OT to the contrary
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Hi yeshuasavedme! Thanks for your reply. This is news to me... could you post a reference from the gospels where Jesus used the prophecies of the book of Enoch (and the reference from the Book of Enoch)? Thanks in advance!
Jesus said the sadducees erred , not knowing Scripture... that in heaven the angels do not marry nor are given in marriage

The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912
Enoch 15 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: "Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. 2And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: 'You should intercede for men, and not men for you: 3Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants as your sons? 4And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten children with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. 5Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. 6But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. 7And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.:

Mat 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures...
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
AS= like, even as, etc. -Strong's Concordance
Enoch 104: 6And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven.

Enoch 50: the change of the bodies of the righteous at the rapture.
Enoch 51: the resurrection of the dead

104 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. 2Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you.

3And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you.

4Be hopeful, and cast not away your hope; for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. 5What shall ye be obliged to do? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world.

6And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven.
BTW: I did not answer sooner because I am not able to copy and paste like this on my phone, and I have not been on the computer to copy and paste the passages for you -been busy.
 
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BobRyan

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Jesus said the sadducees erred , not knowing Scripture... that in heaven the angels do not marry nor are given in marriage
...
Mat 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures...
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
.

Angels do not have that as a biological function and apparently resurrected humans will be "as the angels" in their also not engaging in that activity. Angels do it because they are not created any other way - perhaps resurrected humans will simply follow the same rules... or maybe they too will not even have the biological function.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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1Job predicted resurrection:
No, He did not. Job read Enoch and knew about the resurrection of the body from reading Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam.
Job was before the Law, and Job was descended from Esau. Job was the wise chief leader of his tribe, and was a counselor in Pharaoh's court at the same time Reuel [who later became the father in law to Moses], was. They both left Pharaoh's court and returned to their countries before Moses was born.

2 David predicted resurrection:
No, David already knew what Enoch wrote about the rapture and resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked. He knew those things from reading the book of Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam.

Bodily resurrections happened in the OT:
NO, not to glory, and those raised in the OT died in their own same unchanged bodies again, to await the resurrection to Glory or to eternal death in unchanged bodies that are called "the never dying worms".
Even Moses, who is resurrected in his own body has to die in it, along with Elijah, after they return from heaven and preach for 3 1/2 years in the tribulation. Then they will be raised in their changed for the glory bodies.

"Hannah, the mother of Samuel, said"....: read her whole praise. She was quoting from Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam.

in the Daniel passage you quoted from, please note that Daniel did not prophesy that, but was told it by the "Angel/Messenger" who told Daniel what was written in the Scripture of Truth concerning his people for the latter days. Daniel then wrote chapters 11 and 12 from what he was told by the messenger from heaven was inscribed/noted/written in the Scripture of Truth -in heaven.
Enoch was that messenger, who told us he read everything written in the tablets of heaven, and who went to dwell in the city of God with the holy angels who minister to the sons of men on earth.

Enoch is also one of the 7 who come out of the temple in heaven with bowls of wrath to pour out on earth in the tribulation. He tells John that he is one of his own brethren [a fellow human being], and a fellow prophet. He tells that to John, twice.
Enoch is there. He is with the Watcher angels. He is reigning with them over the sons of men, under God the Word.
 
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