The explanatory power of evolution

Jimmy D

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If you get a scientist to say anything concrete, then "reverse engineer" his mindset, he will eventually say something wrong.

Scientist: The atmosphere is 78% nitrogen.
Creationist: Where did the atmosphere come from?
Scientist: Outer space.

Scientist: The moon is full tonight.
Creationist: Where did the moon come from?
Scientist: [One of about ten different answers ... all wrong.]

Mathematics, of course, would be an exception.

If you get a creationist to say anything concrete, then "reverse engineer" his mindset, he will eventually say something wrong.

Creationist: The atmosphere is 78% nitrogen.
Scientist: Where did the atmosphere come from?
Creationist: God created it when he separated it from the water in space.

Creationist: The moon is full tonight.
Scientist: Where did the moon come from?
Creationist: God created it the day after he created plants

Mathematics, of course, would be an exception.

It's easy to mock isn't it?
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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And what if God gave us Charles Darwin to find a cure for cancer?

He abandoned his studies and his family for a cruise, then brought home a communicable disease.
Well, he may very well have been given to us to find a cure for cancer, because he brought home the Theory of Evolution - arguably the biggest breakthrough in Science which has literally led to many, many cures and medicines (and that's for all of medicine, not just for cancer) , and is the pinnacle principle of pretty much every research effort into curing cancer there is.
 
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AV1611VET

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It would have actually been very difficult for Darwin to have discovered a cure for cancer in the late 1800's since no-one knew what caused cancer, and there would have been no way for anyone to study and to find a way to beat it.
But, sure, keep repeating this canard of yours until the cows come home if it'll make you feel better.
Let me repeat my canard, with emphasis this time:
And what if God gave us Charles Darwin to find a cure for cancer?
My question factors God into the equation.

Remember this guy?

Genesis 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

I suppose you think he was an anachronism as well?
 
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AV1611VET

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Well, he may very well have been given to us to find a cure for cancer, because he brought home the Theory of Evolution - arguably the biggest breakthrough in Science which has literally led to many, many cures and medicines ...
Then why does my ophthalmologist, a YEC, have a successful practice?
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Then why does my ophthalmologist, a YEC, have a successful practice?
Well, to successfully use knowledge, equipment, procedures and pharmaceuticals developed by those who do require the Theory of Evolution to achieve, takes nothing away from the fact that Evolution is why you have it. Just like you, living your life bathed in the fruits of Science and the scientific method, you can be completely ignorant of the absolute irony of your beliefs that it doesn't exist while enjoying the technology and progress derived from it.

Why don't you ask him to consider perhaps contributing some university research time into cutting edge treatment of genetic diseases of the eye? Then, when he says "No.", ask him why.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why don't you ask him to consider perhaps contributing some university research time into cutting edge treatment of genetic diseases of the eye? Then, when he says "No.", ask him why.
Maybe you could explain to me, in terms I can understand, how a knowledge of macroevolution has led to cutting-edge treatment of genetic diseases of the eye?
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Maybe you could explain to me, in terms I can understand, how a knowledge of macroevolution has led to cutting-edge treatment of genetic diseases of the eye?
Because the exact same processes that lead to microevolution are the very same for macroevolution, spare time. This is why Gene therapy works between other animals and us, it's why we used to use a number of animals to perfect treatments on (such as gene therapy) before we tested them on humans, etc. it's why we can replicate these diseases in lab mice so we can observe what happens and why, so we can then develop further treatments, techniques, equipment, procedures and pharmaceuticals on said lab mice (or other appropriately selected animal) that work on humans in exactly the same way.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Maybe you could explain to me, in terms I can understand, how a knowledge of macroevolution has led to cutting-edge treatment of genetic diseases of the eye?

Because the exact same processes that lead to microevolution are the very same for macroevolution, spare time. This is why Gene therapy works between other animals and us, it's why we used to use a number of animals to perfect treatments on (such as gene therapy) before we tested them on humans, etc. it's why we can replicate these diseases in lab mice so we can observe what happens and why, so we can then develop further treatments, techniques, equipment, procedures and pharmaceuticals on said lab mice (or other appropriately selected animal) that work on humans in exactly the same way.
like This one! : Researchers Identify Canine Model of LCA (NPHP5) — Pursue Gene Therapy - Eye on the Cure

"When scientists embark on developing a treatment for an inherited retinal disease, one of their first tasks is to identify or create a model of the condition. Disease models can be cells in a Petri dish, a genetically engineered mouse or rat, or larger animal such as a pig. Each type of model has its pros and cons, including cost and similarity of disease characteristics to those in humans.

The investigators then use the model to study how vision is lost — that is, they figure out which types of retinal cells degenerate, what is causing the degeneration, and how quickly the cells stop working. After they gain an understanding of the disease, researchers evaluate potential therapeutic approaches using the model as a testing platform.

The goal: Move a therapy into a human study.
"​

....win!

**EDIT: Ooh! OOH! Here's a ruddy great chunk more of them! Gene Therapy - Eye on the Cure

.....BooyAAAH! :p
 
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AV1611VET

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... lab mice ...
I'm glad you mentioned lab mice.

Isn't it true that lab mice are used because our reactions to drugs are almost a mirror image of theirs?

And isn't it true there are two major exceptions?

Aspirin: Horribly disfigures lab mice; does not affect humans.

Thalidomide: Does not affect lab mice; horribly disfigures humans.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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I'm glad you mentioned lab mice.

Isn't it true that lab mice are used because our reactions to drugs are almost a mirror image of theirs?

And isn't it true there are two major exceptions?

Aspirin: Horribly disfigures lab mice; does not affect humans.

Thalidomide: Does not affect lab mice; horribly disfigures humans.
Aspirin ain't that great for cats either as I understand it... You know lab mice aren't human, right? As much as we try to get it right first go, mistakes are made and we can only learn from it.
I must have missed the part about macro-evolution in there.

Would you highlight it in red for me, please?
Because the exact same processes that lead to microevolution are the very same for macroevolution, spare time.
To everyone who works with Evolution, micro/macro is just evolution on a different timescale. it isn't even really formally recognised, though some science institutions try to explain it.

I'd have thought the fact you said yourself we use other mammals to practice our medicine & techniques on, you'd realise the non-difference between micro & macro all on your own.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Let me repeat my canard, with emphasis this time:

My question factors God into the equation.

Remember this guy?

Genesis 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

I suppose you think he was an anachronism as well?

Regardless, Darwin would have been as ignorant on the causes of cancer and how to cure it, the same as anyone else in Victorian times.
Although, are you sure that God didn't give us Darwin to discover evolution, as he actually did (Darwin, not God)?
 
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PsychoSarah

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But then you would be a murderer. It would be like saying a 5 year old will go to Heaven if you murder it so you'd be doing the kid a favor.
I would be doing the kid a favor, since they would be guaranteed heaven. It's an unfortunate but persistent implication of Christianity; what is a temporary mortal life compared to an eternally perfect afterlife? I'd not only be guaranteeing the child salvation, but I would also be saving them the trouble of the pain of life.

Of course, since I am an atheist, I would consider that taking that child's one and only life away from them, and since I am not a crazy person, I don't really want to kill people to begin with.


A child that weighs less than a pound can suvive outside the womb. If you kill it while it is hooked up to the machine you'd go to jail for murder. Do you really think that killing a baby inside the womb that weighs four times as much is not murder?
1. assuming that I am prochoice, when lots of atheists actually aren't, one of the most notable examples being Christopher Hitchens.
2. I'm only barely prochoice, in that I think the option should be there, especially in life threatening situations for the pregnant woman and various mental health complications (I don't think a violent schizophrenic should be forced to go through a pregnancy, their life is rough enough as it is). However, I support actions that would reduce abortion rates, such as free healthcare for pregnant women, childcare programs for those in need, competent sex education in schools, etc. You can protest outside of an abortion clinic all day and maybe delay a few abortions, or you can reduce the number of abortions that occur by over 30% just through social programs, considering that 33% of abortions are gotten because the mother feels that she doesn't have the funds to care for a child. That is, I think the best solution is to reduce the want for abortions rather than to ban it and force people unprepared to be parents to go through that stress.
3. I hope that one day, rather than having to kill the developing embryo, it can be transplanted into an artificial womb to be adopted later. No bodily damage and stress from pregnancy, and no death of a potential life, so everyone wins. Wouldn't that be a better investment in time and money than a bunch of billboards and protests than end up going nowhere? And I say that to both sides of the debate on that one. Especially considering that one of the legislative acts prolife people pushed through stands in the way of it, which is the law that states the developing embryo cannot be removed intact. So, all those pictures of blended masses? Yeah... prolife people made it happen because it makes the abortion process more traumatic. That, and a few of them come from China, and we both know China couldn't give a single crap about any prolife agenda.
4. Most abortions occur around the end of the first month of pregnancy, at which point the embryo is 0.04 ounces. At 8 weeks, the embryo is about the size of a kidney bean. The most premature baby to survive outside the womb was at 21 weeks, and weighed 1 pound, 6 ounces. Note that in most places, unless the mother's life is on the line, an abortion cannot be legally performed after 12 weeks into the pregnancy. Thus, unless you live in China or something, abortions of fetuses that could potentially live outside of the womb at their current level of development are exceedingly rare. I'm not sure why you, as a prolife individual, would care; wouldn't any abortion, even one the first day after conception, be murder to you?
 
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Galaxy Hunter

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If a person murders a pregnant woman the person gets charged with murder of the baby too and goes to jail forever. Yet an abortion "doctor" can kill thousands of babies and become a millionaire. The difference is that those thousands weren't wanted. What kind of sick society hires a person to murder innocent people who aren't wanted? I can only assume that abortion rights activists want to kill all old people or disabled people who are a burden to society. They should only live if someone wants them.
 
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Speedwell

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If a person murders a pregnant woman the person gets charged with murder of the baby too and goes to jail forever. Yet an abortion "doctor" can kill thousands of babies and become a millionaire. The difference is that those thousands weren't wanted. What kind of sick society hires a person to murder innocent people who aren't wanted? I can only assume that abortion rights activists want to kill all old people or disabled people who are a burden to society. They should only live if someone wants them.
You can "assume" that even though it isn't true. I can "assume" that you know it isn't true and are just saying it to be snarky.

I am prolife, myself, but I take the pro-choice position because I don't want medical decisions (or moral decisions of any kind) to be subject to the whim of Christian-Right legislators.
 
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Galaxy Hunter

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You can "assume" that even though it isn't true. I can "assume" that you know it isn't true and are just saying it to be snarky.

I am prolife, myself, but I take the pro-choice position because I don't want medical decisions (or moral decisions of any kind) to be subject to the whim of Christian-Right legislators.
Why then would they think it is acceptable to murder one class of unwanted peole but not the other? The person is either unwanted or they're not. What's the difference if they're living in a womb or a room?
 
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AV1611VET

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Why then would they think it is acceptable to murder one class of unwanted peole but not the other? The person is either unwanted or they're not. What's the difference if they're living in a womb or a room?
The difference is who their master is:
MasterCard-vale-a-pena.jpeg
 
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Speedwell

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Why then would they think it is acceptable to murder one class of unwanted peole but not the other? The person is either unwanted or they're not. What's the difference if they're living in a womb or a room?
Because, as I understand it, they are not thought to be "persons" yet.
 
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Galaxy Hunter

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Because, as I understand it, they are not thought to be "persons" yet.
They don't consider them to be a person because they don't want them. That doesn't mean they're not people. It means they're trying to justify mass murder of the most innocent people on the planet by playing with semantics.
 
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