The purpose of Election

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 14, 2018

Service unto God is the consequence, the result of being elected to salvation. God converts a bad tree into a good tree, and in doing so the tree produces good fruit for service unto God. The purpose of election is salvation, and the result is service.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 15, 2018

I said:
"I've never found any verses on election that said one is elected to salvation."

Apologetic_Warrior said:
In his letter to the Romans Paul wrote

Before we get to your long list of verses, I'll just cut to the chase. NONE of the verses say that election is to salvation.

What they do say is that election is by grace. OK, no problem. But that's NOT saying that election is to salvation.

So, in spite of your long list of verses, again, NONE of them state that election is to salvation.

, Romans 11:5

New International Version
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

New Living Translation
It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God's grace--his undeserved kindness in choosing them.

English Standard Version
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Berean Study Bible
In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Berean Literal Bible
So then also, in the present time, there has been a remnant according to the election of grace.

New American Standard Bible
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

King James Bible
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace.

International Standard Version
So it is at the present time: there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

NET Bible
So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

New Heart English Bible
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the same way also at this time there is a remnant left in The Election of grace.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
So, as there were then, there are now a few left that God has chosen by his kindness.

New American Standard 1977
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’sgracious choice.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant by the gracious election of God.

King James 2000 Bible
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

American King James Version
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

American Standard Version
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.

Darby Bible Translation
Thus, then, in the present time also there has been a remnant according to election of grace.

English Revised Version
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Webster's Bible Translation
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Weymouth New Testament
In the same way also at the present time there has come to be a remnant whom God in His grace has selected.

World English Bible
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Young's Literal Translation
So then also in the present time a remnant according to the choice of grace there hath been;

Again, NONE say that election is TO salvation.

What is salvation if not an election of grace?

I'll tell you what salvation is. By grace through faith. Eph 2:8

According to Paul in his letter to the Ephesians...

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Exactly what I've been saying.

[Staff edit].

FreeGrace2 · Jan 15, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Service unto God is the consequence, the result of being elected to salvation.

There are NO verses that support this supposition. None.

The Bible is clear about election. It is to service. Jesus Christ was elected to be the Savior. That is service both to God and to mankind. All the examples of who the Bible describes as elect show that they were elected to service, including Judas.

God converts a bad tree into a good tree, and in doing so the tree produces good fruit for service unto God. The purpose of election is salvation, and the result is service.

Please show me any verse that actually says that election is to salvation.

Until then, there is no reason to accept your premise.

Don Maurer · Apr 19, 2018

2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

redleghunter · Apr 19, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Please show me any verse that actually says that election is to salvation.

What happens before we are approved to serve? Are we not adopted before we serve?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 20, 2018

Don Maurer said:
2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The Greek words related to election are these:
noun - ekloge
verb - eklegomai
adjective - eklektos

The Greek word in this verse is 'haireomai'.

We don't refer to an election as a "choosing". But we do choose in an election.

Further, elections result in an appointment. Those elected are appointed, usually to an office.

In the Bible, there are no verses about anyone being appointed to salvation, or elected to salvation.

But, there are plenty of verses about being appointed to service.

Scroll back to see the verses I've shared.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 20, 2018

I said this:
"Please show me any verse that actually says that election is to salvation."

redleghunter said:
What happens before we are approved to serve?

No, we are appointed (elected) to serve.

Are we not adopted before we serve?

Yes. What is the point, please?

redleghunter · Apr 20, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes. What is the point, please?

Adopted children are they not chosen by the adoptive parents?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 20, 2018

redleghunter said:
Adopted children are they not chosen by the adoptive parents?

Of course. Are you aware of the significant differences between 1st Century Roman adoption (which Paul was referencing) with current adoption practices?

However, do adoptive parents appoint the children they adopt? No. I have shown that being chosen in the Bible is the same as being appointed to service. Paul made that clear in his testimony as I have shown.

redleghunter · Apr 20, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course. Are you aware of the significant differences between 1st Century Roman adoption (which Paul was referencing) with current adoption practices?

Know this well and why when Paul uses adoption it is to be considered 'sure.'

FreeGrace2 said:
However, do adoptive parents appoint the children they adopt? No. I have shown that being chosen in the Bible is the same as being appointed to service. Paul made that clear in his testimony as I have shown.

A father cannot appoint a vineyard to someone not already in the family.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 20, 2018

redleghunter said:
Know this well and why when Paul uses adoption it is to be considered 'sure.'

Of course biblical adoption is 'sure'. Absolutely.

I said this:
"However, do adoptive parents appoint the children they adopt? No. I have shown that being chosen in the Bible is the same as being appointed to service. Paul made that clear in his testimony as I have shown."

A father cannot appoint a vineyard to someone not already in the family.

I'm not seeing any relevance between my comment your response.

Please advise.

Don Maurer · Apr 30, 2018

2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I believe you said that all verses on election in the NT are about service. The lovely part of this verse is that it is so painfully and obviously clear that it needs no explanation. There is no reader out there that will not see it.

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, Paul was guided by the Spirit and was totally consistent when writing inspired Scripture, of which 2 Thess 2:13 is part of.

However, like so many other verses that Calvinists misread, this is another of those misread verses.

The verse teaches the METHOD of salvation that God chose. The phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" is what God chose as the means of saving people.

What the verse doesn't say is that God chose anyone unconditionally, which is the 2nd point of TULIP, and unbiblical.

God's salvation IS conditional. It's conditioned upon belief in the truth, or faith in Christ, who is the Truth.

And 2 Thess 2:13 contradicts the 2nd point of TULIP very clearly.

Man is saved through belief in the truth.

Or consider this, also from Paul: 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This verse says basically what 2 Thess 2:13 says

Oh, and one more thing. The word for "chose" in 2 Thess 2:13 is 'haireomai', which is NOT the same verb translated 'elected' in other verses, which is 'eklektomai'.

So, 2 Thess 2:13 supports my view, not yours.

Merry Chrstmas!

FreeGrace2 · Apr 30, 2018

Don Maurer said:
2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I believe you said that all verses on election in the NT are about service. The lovely part of this verse is that it is so painfully and obviously clear that it needs no explanation. There is no reader out there that will not see it.

I appreciate your post and interest.

I stand by my statement. 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't use the same Greek word for "elect" as in all the other verses that are about election. In this verse, the verb is "haireomai", whereas the election verb in Eph 1 and 1 Cor 1 is "eklegomai".

My point is there is a big difference between an election and a choice. Yes, elections involve choice, but most choices do not involve an election. I hope you see the difference.

Let's start with Jesus Christ, the Chosen One:
Elected to Serve

Jesus is described as The Elect (Chosen) One

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isa 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Now, consider what Jesus Christ was chosen for:

Matt 20:28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Luke 22:27 - For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

So, the Bible plainly states that Jesus Christ is God’s Chosen One, and that He came to serve.

In the same way, the Bible tells us what believers are chosen for:

1 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

So, just as Jesus Christ was chosen to serve the Father’s purpose, so also believers are chosen for service to God as well.

In fact, Paul made a point of how he saw his own election.

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

This is why I stand by my statement.

An election is also an appointment, according to Paul.

in fact, that's exactly what our political elections are for as well.

Don Maurer · Apr 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I appreciate your post and interest.

I stand by my statement. 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't use the same Greek word for "elect" as in all the other verses that are about election. In this verse, the verb is "haireomai", whereas the election verb in Eph 1 and 1 Cor 1 is "eklegomai".

The verb εἵλετο is well translated "choice." Any lexicon would tell you that. The word eklektos does not have to be used to refer to election. Paul can use a variety of terms to express the concept of what is called "election."

The context bears bears this out in verse 14 when Paul advances his statement and talks about the calling (aorist tense).

The order in verses 13 and 14 are then...
(13) the choosing unto salvation
(14) the calling unto the gospel
(14) the gaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now your assertion is that any time the concept of election apears in the scriptures relates to service and not salvation. There is simply no room to read the words of verse 13 in that way.

FreeGrace2 said:
My point is there is a big difference between an election and a choice. Yes, elections involve choice, but most choices do not involve an election. I hope you see the difference.

What I see is that your working too hard to refute all those Calvinists. The meaning of the text is quite plain and obvious...
1 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Tell me, in that clause above in red, can you define the meaning of the term "salvation?"

FreeGrace2 said:
Let's start with Jesus Christ, the Chosen One:
Elected to Serve

Jesus is described as The Elect (Chosen) One

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isa 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Now, consider what Jesus Christ was chosen for:

Matt 20:28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Luke 22:27 - For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

So, the Bible plainly states that Jesus Christ is God’s Chosen One, and that He came to serve.

In the same way, the Bible tells us what believers are chosen for:

1 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

So, just as Jesus Christ was chosen to serve the Father’s purpose, so also believers are chosen for service to God as well.

In fact, Paul made a point of how he saw his own election.

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

This is why I stand by my statement.

An election is also an appointment, according to Paul.

in fact, that's exactly what our political elections are for as well.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 30, 2018

Don Maurer said:
The verb εἵλετο is well translated "choice." Any lexicon would tell you that. The word eklektos does not have to be used to refer to election. Paul can use a variety of terms to express the concept of what is called "election."

In fact, the NT uses 3 related words related to the concept of election:
noun = ekloge
verb = eklegomai
adjective = ekleklos

These words are translated as "election" in Rom 9:11, and "elect" as verb and adjective in many verses. Of course an election involves a choice, but very few choices involve an election.

The order in verses 13 and 14 are then...
(13) the choosing unto salvation

Let's examine exactly what was chosen unto salvation in 2 Thess 2:13.

" But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth." NIV

What this verse is communicating is the basis for choosing who God will save.

He chose salvation "through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

What the verse doesn't say is that God chooses who will believe, which is really the foundation for the reformed doctrine of election. The "U" in TULIP refers to "unconditional election". Consider just for a moment what that means. It means there are no conditions for God's election. But we know from many verses that salvation is based on faith in Christ. So IF election was for salvation, and there are no conditions, then faith in Christ would NOT be the basis of our salvation, which would refute many Scriptures.

Here's a great verse on who God chooses to save in 1 Cor 1:21:
"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

This show who God is pleased to save: believers. And that's who He chooses to save.

But the reformed doctrine of election goes much farther by the clear insinuation that God chooses who will believe. Which is where the idea of regeneration before faith comes in.

However, since there are so many verses on election being for service, it' easy to accept that God has elected every believer for service.

In fact, we have such a verse:
Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

The word for "chose" is the verb "eklegomai". So, who is "us"? Eph 1:19 defines exactly who the "us" are: believers.

So the verse is saying that God elected believers...to be holy and blameless.

We know that being "holy and blameless" is a lifestyle, and this is what believers are elected to be.

Here's another example of election to service, from 1 Cor 1:
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Do you see being chosen for salvation here, or for service? Service.

Now your assertion is that any time the concept of election apears in the scriptures relates to service and not salvation. There is simply no room to read the words of verse 13 in that way.

I just explained that the verse doesn't God chooses who will believe, but chooses the method of HOW people are saved; sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

What I see is that your working too hard to refute all those Calvinists.

Actually, I never even broke a sweat. And I had one arm behind my back.

The meaning of the text is quite plain and obvious...
1 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Except the verse doesn't say "unto salvation IN sanctification". It says "through".

But regardless, what is being communicated is the method on which God chooses to save. Which is the same as we find in 1 Cor 1:21. The basis for salvation is belief.

Tell me, in that clause above in red, can you define the meaning of the term "salvation?"

It certainly means eternal soul salvation from the lake of fire.

But I've shown what the verse isn't saying.

Don Maurer · Apr 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, the NT uses 3 related words related to the concept of election:
noun = ekloge
verb = eklegomai
adjective = ekleklos

These words are translated as "election" in Rom 9:11, and "elect" as verb and adjective in many verses. Of course an election involves a choice, but very few choices involve an election.

Let's examine exactly what was chosen unto salvation in 2 Thess 2:13.

" But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth." NIV

What this verse is communicating is the basis for choosing who God will save.

Really? On what word or phrase in the verse would you use to establish the claim that the "basis for choosing who God will save?" Certainly the preposition "en" would be not be a good exegetical basis to make such a claim. In fact this passage does not speak of any "basis" upon which God choose man. Not that there are not some very clear contexts in Romans which speak exactly to this issue.

Romans 9:16 states the basis of election, it does not depend upon man who wills, or man who runs, but God who shows mercy. "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy." The participle "him that willeth" is of course negated by negative (not). The 2nd participle is also negated. Mercy then, no matter what form of Mercy (such as election) has its basis in God and not man.

The same concept is found in Romans 9:11. "for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Here, this election is conditioned not upon anything done by Jacob or Esau. The verse clearly says election "stands" not of works. The basis of this election is "him that calleth."

I think it best for me to bow out of this discussion. I find your arguments to be very shallow and do not find this conversation edifying. I do want to shorten your post below and make one more comment.

FreeGrace2 said:
But regardless, what is being communicated is the method on which God chooses to save. Which is the same as we find in 1 Cor 1:21. The basis for salvation is belief.

The human element required for justification is faith and faith alone, but that is not the basis of salvation. The only basis of salvation is the shed blood of Jesus Christ. We are not saved by our faith, but through our faith, or because of our faith. This is the Gospel. To make faith the basis of salvation is not the gospel at all. To distort election is one thing, but to distort the Gospel moves things to a much higher level.

FreeGrace2 · May 1, 2018

Don Maurer said:
Really? On what word or phrase in the verse would you use to establish the claim that the "basis for choosing who God will save?" Certainly the preposition "en" would be not be a good exegetical basis to make such a claim. In fact this passage does not speak of any "basis" upon which God choose man. Not that there are not some very clear contexts in Romans which speak exactly to this issue.

I base my view on the "basis for who God chooses to save" is found in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I highlighted the words that communicate the basis upon which God saves people. The basis is on belief. And this agrees with 2 Thess 2:13 about the means or method that God has chosen to save people.

In a nutshell, God saves those who believe.

Romans 9:16 states the basis of election, it does not depend upon man who wills, or man who runs, but God who shows mercy. "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy." The participle "him that willeth" is of course negated by negative (not). The 2nd participle is also negated. Mercy then, no matter what form of Mercy (such as election) has its basis in God and not man.

I agree. Anything and everything that God does for mankind is based on mercy and grace.

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace, through faith. Again, the basis for salvation is faith.

The reformed doctrine of election is "unconditional election", which means God chooses who to save apart from conditions. Yet the Bible is clear that there is actually ONE condition for salvation; believing in Jesus Christ.

The same concept is found in Romans 9:11. "for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Here, this election is conditioned not upon anything done by Jacob or Esau. The verse clearly says election "stands" not of works. The basis of this election is "him that calleth."

Of course you're aware of the meaning of "calleth" in the Greek. The word is 'kletos' and means "to invite". God invites all believers to serve Him. That's election.

I think it best for me to bow out of this discussion. I find your arguments to be very shallow and do not find this conversation edifying. I do want to shorten your post below and make one more comment.

That's fine. But you've not supported this charge of shallowness. In fact, it seems to me that you have ignored my argument and only put out your own arguments.

But my argument is solid and based on what the Bible actually says.

The claim that God elects people to salvation apart from conditions is unbiblical, as I've shown. So, if that is a "shallow" argument, it's certainly deeper than the reformed claim.

And biblical.

The human element required for justification is faith and faith alone, but that is not the basis of salvation.

I view all of these as being synonymous, since they cannot exist apart from each other.

The only basis of salvation is the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Certainly Jesus had to die in order for anyone to be saved. But the Bible is also clear that He died for everyone, yet not everyone will be saved.

We are not saved by our faith, but through our faith, or because of our faith.

I fully believe this as well.

This is the Gospel. To make faith the basis of salvation is not the gospel at all.

I never said this. Maybe your reading of my posts is what is shallow. I said the condition for choosing who to save is faith. Just as 1 Cor 1:21 says plainly.

To distort election is one thing, but to distort the Gospel moves things to a much higher level.

I've done neither. If you think so, all you've done is make a claim, but without any evidence.

Does God choose to save anyone apart from any conditions, or does He choose to save people on conditions?

Now we'll see who is distorting election. If you care to respond.

Usually when I corner a Calvinist, they bow out.

Tayla · May 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
In each of these categories, we see that election is for service, and clearly not for salvation.

Yes. Thanks for pointing this out.

Doug Melven · May 1, 2018

God uses more than just believers for His service.
Jeremiah 27:6 And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

Judges 2:21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
2:22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.

Paidiske · May 8, 2018

red-strawberry-hat-wool-beret-girls-winter-wear20667.jpg

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The purpose of Election

Pilgrim

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^Oh well^

Thank You Jesus!

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Senior Veteran

Thank You Jesus!

Senior Veteran

Thank You Jesus!

Senior Veteran

^Oh well^

Senior Veteran

^Oh well^

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^Oh well^

Senior Veteran

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Clara bonam audax

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