theosis and deification

icxn

Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα
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Justification is about how God accepts us as sinners even though he is just and does not condone sin. As Lutherans, we don't believe we actually participate in this at all, it is something God takes care of for us through the work of Christ.
So what precludes a non-Lutheran from receiving this justification and certainty of salvation? Phrased differently, "What does a Lutheran do to receive this gift?"
 
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FireDragon76

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So what precludes a non-Lutheran from receiving this justification and certainty of salvation? Phrased differently, "What does a Lutheran do to receive this gift?"

Faith takes hold of the gift and it makes it our own.
 
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FireDragon76

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so if it's our own, there is participation.

If you want to call it that. We don't think of it that way, though. In the sense that a baby is "participating" in baptism, or a person is "participating" in hearing the Word, perhaps that's true. It doesn't negate personal involvement (as the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification between the Lutheran World Federation and the Roman Catholic Church made clear:
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification ).

21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God and his saving action. Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace. When they emphasize that a person can only receive (mere passive) justification, they mean thereby to exclude any possibility of contributing to one's own justification, but do not deny that believers are fully involved personally in their faith, which is effected by God's Word.

We are critiquing "meritorious religious works" as participation. In Luther's time it was not unheard of to have the notion that you had to have meritorious religious works to enter heaven, that you were in effect earning a place in heaven through your own merits combined with the merits of Christ and the saints. We are making it clear that Christ has accomplished all good works that we need for our salvation to enter heaven. If a baptized baby dies the moment after it is baptized, we can be certain that Christ's works are sufficient for it to enter heaven.

Rather than participation, we see justification being applied to a baby in baptism. That's more along the lines of the language we use to describe what is happening.
 
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ArmyMatt

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If you want to call it that. We don't think of it that way, though. In the sense that a baby is "participating" in baptism, or a person is "participating" in hearing the Word, perhaps that's true. It doesn't negate personal involvement (as the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification between the Lutheran World Federation and the Roman Catholic Church made clear:
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification ).

We are thinking more of "religious works" in our critique of participation. In Luther's time it was not unheard of to have the notion that you had to have specific religious works to enter heaven, that you were in effect earning a place in heaven through your own merits combined with the merits of Christ and the saints.

Rather than participation, we see justification being applied to a baby in baptism. That's more along the lines of the language we use to describe what is happening.

so there is participation. it doesn't matter if Rome ran with that and had a faulty understanding of participation. there is participation in our justification if the faith makes the gift our own as you (rightly) said
 
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FireDragon76

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There is personal sacramental involvement in our faith. If we didn't believe that, we'ld be like Baptists, who also have the doctrine of sola fide. Many of them have a great deal of confusion about how exactly we can have assurance of our faith. But for a Lutheran, it's relative simple: "I am baptized".

I should probably qualify what I said about faith. What Luther actually said is that "faith takes hold of Christ like a ring holds a jewel". We would agree with the Orthodox that we participate in God's nature by grace, and we do so through faith in Christ. But our faith is lived out in a sacramental worldview.

So, Christ's work is properly his own. It doesn't become ours except in the sense that when two people are married, they share what they have together. In fact Luther uses this sort of wedding imagery, borrowing from St. Bernard of Clairvaux, who in turn was using imagery from the early Church. Christ gives us his holiness, righteousness, and immortality and we give him our sin and death.
 
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ArmyMatt

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There is personal sacramental involvement in our faith. If we didn't believe that, we'ld be like Baptists, who also have the doctrine of sola fide. Many of them have a great deal of confusion about how exactly we can have assurance of our faith. But for a Lutheran, it's relative simple: "I am baptized".

I should probably qualify what I said about faith. What Luther actually said is that "faith takes hold of Christ like a ring holds a jewel". We would agree with the Orthodox that we participate in God's nature by grace, and we do so through faith in Christ. But our faith is lived out in a sacramental worldview.

So, Christ's work is properly his own. It doesn't become ours except in the sense that when two people are married, they share what they have together. In fact Luther uses this sort of wedding imagery, borrowing from St. Bernard of Clairvaux, who in turn was using imagery from the early Church. Christ gives us his holiness, righteousness, and immortality and we give him our sin and death.

which is the Orthodox position. although I would wonder what you mean by giving Him sin and death.
 
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FireDragon76

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which is the Orthodox position. although I would wonder what you mean by giving Him sin and death.

I mean he took on the fate of a sinner and died a criminal's death. Our sins were reckoned to him as part of his sacrifice. Isaiah 53 makes that fairly clear that he bore our sins. We don't mean Christ essentially became a sinner, but he was humiliated and suffered as if he were one.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I mean he took on the fate of a sinner and died a criminal's death. Our sins were reckoned to him as part of his sacrifice. Isaiah 53 makes that fairly clear that he bore our sins. We don't mean Christ essentially became a sinner, but he was humiliated and suffered as if he were one.

yes, absolutely. just making sure we were on the same page.
 
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FireDragon76

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Would it be correct to say that Orthodox consider prayer sacramental?

I'm bothered by the factor Pr. Cooper, in his book, says the Jesus Prayer is fine for Lutherans, and yet he doesn't really delve into the purpose of that sort of prayer in ones spiritual life, especially if he rejects the "speculative" theology of the Palamites. I think this would be a discussion better had with Lutherans than Orthodox, though.

I have been thinking recently how I have not encountered much from Lutherans on the subject of spiritual formation, and this discussion has encouraged me to explore the topic myself. My pastor says I would benefit more from reading Pietist works to explore that side of Lutheranism.
 
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AMM

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Would it be correct to say that Orthodox consider prayer sacramental?

I'm bothered by the factor Pr. Cooper, in his book, says the Jesus Prayer is fine for Lutherans, and yet he doesn't really delve into the purpose of that sort of prayer in ones spiritual life, especially if he rejects the "speculative" theology of the Palamites. I think this would be a discussion better had with Lutherans than Orthodox, though.

I have been thinking recently how I have not encountered much from Lutherans on the subject of spiritual formation, and this discussion has encouraged me to explore the topic myself. My pastor says I would benefit more from reading Pietist works to explore that side of Lutheranism.
Have you read "Grace upon Grace" by Dr. John Kleinig? He addresses these topics as a Lutheran and I really liked the book when I read it a couple years ago. (Not the Jesus prayer in particular, but spiritual formation and prayer)
 
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FireDragon76

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Have you read "Grace upon Grace" by Dr. John Kleinig? He addresses these topics as a Lutheran and I really liked the book when I read it a couple years ago. (Not the Jesus prayer in particular, but spiritual formation and prayer)

I'll look it up. Years ago, I read a book by Gene Veith and it just came across as anti-spirituality and obtuse in many places. I was attending an Episcopal church at the time, and it seemed to be closing the door on alot of what I experienced in the Episcopalian approach to being Christian- and was very much at odds with an Orthodox approach as well.
 
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