racism among US evangelicals

tulc said:

...and still the spin goes on...he wasn't talking about how bad the countries were, he was complaining about "these people". coming here. But it's always interesting to watch the attempts to spin it to be about something else.
tulc(is pretty sure this is going to be some Democrats fault pretty soon)

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Yes, he was talking about how bad the countries were and how more and more immigrants from those countries are taxing more and more of our resources and weaken us in how much we can help anybody. He was advocating looking for people the USA NEEDS--doctors, engineers, high tech people, craftsmen, artisans, etc.--and those are the ones we should be looking to immigrate here. I honestly don't expect anybody who is in the I-hate-anything-about-Trump-and-I-will-believe-everything-bad-anybody-says-about-him camp to understand or appreciate the argument.

I do hope those of the Christian community will look for the intellectually honest position and not buy into the hate spin. We should be praying for our President and other leaders and doing what we can to help them to do good instead of tearing down.

Foxfyre said:

He was advocating looking for people the USA NEEDS--doctors, engineers, high tech people, craftsmen, artisans, etc.--and those are the ones we should be looking to immigrate here.

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Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

Searching1God said:

I agree with you that corruption is a blight on the political system of these countries. But are you saying that a country like Norway that has legalized same sex marriage, abortion, and has free health care, all things Trumps and his supporters despise and rail against in the good ole US of A is a good example of a country worthy of being lifted up by the same Trump and his supporters? The Christians for whom those issues are political deal breakers (Gay marriage, abortion) in the US are now giving Norway a pass?

Do you not see the lack of consistency here? Do you understand why some of us are skeptical?

It is just plain obvious the political systems of the countries is not the real issue, It is the color of the citizens that is an issue.

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I am pretty much 100% certain that President Trump did not have abortion or gay marriage or any other social issue on his mind when he plucked Norway out of thin air to use as an illustration. I am pretty much 100% certain that President Trump was using somebody from Norway as an illustration of an immigrant who would not be a drain on social services and weaken us as a nation, but would be much more likely to earn what he/she received and make the nation stronger. A poor immigrant from Haiti or some other really terrible country would likely drain more resources than he/she would contribute.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with race. I believe an intellectually honest person could acknowledge that and not try to make something out of it that just didn't happen, wasn't said, wasn't intended. I don't expect the I-hate-everything-Trump crowd to be intellectually honest about much of anything though, and that is really sad. And terrible for our country.

WolfGate said:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

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Yes, a nice French poem included with the gift of Lady Liberty 132 years ago when our population was roughly 56 million people, there were 40 states in the union, and we needed more folks to fill the vast territories of the USA. There were no national relief or social programs of any kind and precious few social services anywhere except for a few private charities. Those who came were quarantined on Ellis Island for awhile to be sure they weren't bringing in communicable diseases, and they arrived ready to support themselves or they were sent home. Nobody was required to accommodate their native languages--all were expected to learn English and take their oath of citizenship in English when they qualified to be American citizens. They came here to America as a land of promise and opportunity to make a home for themselves and they expected absolutely nothing to be provided or given them. Those who became citizens became Americans in every sense of the word and there was zero expectation that Americans were supposed to accommodate their religious, cultural, or ethnic customs or anything else other than to treat them as all Americans were treated.

Now we have 52 states, 330+ million people, and a social service system that is putting us more deeply into debt every day that passes and is stretched to the breaking point.

Don't try to find an argument that will convince me that we should be bringing more of the world's poor here and further weaken our ability to be a role model for the world and help when we are desperately needed in emergencies. I don't think such an argument exists.

Foxfyre said:

Yes, a nice French poem included with the gift of Lady Liberty 132 years ago when our population was roughly 56 million people, there were 40 states in the union, and we needed more folks to fill the vast territories of the USA. There were no national relief or social programs of any kind and precious few social services anywhere except for a few private charities. Those who came were quarantined on Ellis Island for awhile to be sure they weren't bringing in communicable diseases, and they arrived ready to support themselves or they were sent home. Nobody was required to accommodate their native languages--all were expected to learn English and take their oath of citizenship in English when they qualified to be American citizens. They came here to America as a land of promise and opportunity to make a home for themselves and they expected absolutely nothing to be provided or given them. Those who became citizens became Americans in every sense of the word and there was zero expectation that Americans were supposed to accommodate their religious, cultural, or ethnic customs or anything else other than to treat them as all Americans were treated.

Now we have 52 states, 330+ million people, and a social service system that is putting us more deeply into debt every day that passes and is stretched to the breaking point.

Don't try to find an argument that will convince me that we should be bringing more of the world's poor here and further weaken our ability to be a role model for the world and help when we are desperately needed in emergencies. I don't think such an argument exists.

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This response begs the question as to why the Republicans, who have long prided themselves as the Party of small government and fiscal restraint, voted almost unanimously last month for a tax bill that was designed to largely benefit their wealthy donors - while the projected $1.5 trillion shortfall in tax revenue will be financed through borrowed money.

With the Dow currently at record levels coupled with low unemployment, it isn't as if the nation was in the middle of a recession that required a federal government spending, or that further stimulating the economy was in response to the demands of the majority of Americans!

If the nation can pass legislation, in December, for the express purpose of benefiting millionaires and billionaires, reverting back to traditional arguments in January pleading for fiscal restraint, citing that the government has insufficient funds to assist those in real need, has no credibility!

jgarden said:

This response begs the question as to why the Republicans, who have long prided themselves as the Party for small government and fiscal restraint, voted unanimously last month for a tax bill that will largely benefit their wealthy donors - with the predicted shortfall of $1.5 trillion financed through borrowed money.

With the Dow at record levels and low unemployment, it isn't as if the nation was in the middle of a recession that required a federal government initiatives, or that stimulating the economy was in response to the demands of the majority of Americans!

If the nation can pass legislation for the express purpose of benefiting millionaires and billionaires in December, arguments for fiscal restraint in January, citing that the government no longer has insufficient funds to assist those in real need, have no credibility!

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It also benefitted the Democrats wealthy donors as much or more. The fact is we cannot have a strong economy and a prosperous population without incentives for American businesses to do business in America, to hire people here, to provide security and prosperity for Americans here. And we are already seeing companies moving home now that the horrific burden of about the highest corporate taxes in the world and regulations that sometimes make it almost impossible to turn a profit are no longer a problem or a threat hanging over their heads.

People who have been sidelined are going back to work and can find good paying full time jobs now instead of having to work two or more jobs with minimal or no benefits. The last statistic I saw had employment among the American black demographic was higher and unemployment lower than pretty much any time in our history since we have been tracking those statistics.

And 90% of working Americans will see an increase in their paychecks beginning next month.

I think people who are patriots and who love their country and want the best for everybody would be cheering what is happening instead of trying to demonize Republicans and/or the President.

Foxfyre said:

It also benefitted the Democrats wealthy donors as much or more. The fact is we cannot have a strong economy and a prosperous population without incentives for American businesses to do business in America, to hire people here, to provide security and prosperity for Americans here. And we are already seeing companies moving home now that the horrific burden of about the highest corporate taxes in the world and regulations that sometimes make it almost impossible to turn a profit are no longer a problem or a threat hanging over their heads.

People who have been sidelined are going back to work and can find good paying full time jobs now instead of having to work two or more jobs with minimal or no benefits. The last statistic I saw had employment among the American black demographic was higher and unemployment lower than pretty much any time in our history since we have been tracking those statistics.

And 90% of working Americans will see an increase in their paychecks beginning next month.

I think people who are patriots and who love their country and want the best for everybody would be cheering what is happening instead of trying to demonize Republicans and/or the President.

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1. The Republican tax legislation was, and continues to be unpopular with the majority of voters - perhaps the American public is smarter as to its real purpose than the Republican politicians give them credit.

2. The Democrats voted unanimous against the tax bill - and will probably receive a lot less in corporate donations during the 2018 Interims!

3. With the economy was already performing at record levels, adding an additional $1.5 trillion to the debt was not an economic strategy widely supported outside of Republican circles.

4. The Republicans did not allow for Congressional committees to hold public hearings or take expert testimony from concerned "stakeholders" - it was stampeded through the House and Senate whereby many politicians weren't able to read through the legislation and/or ask questions as to its content.

5. Anybody can provide the America public with an increase in their paychecks if its financed with borrowed money - the tax cuts for workers are temporary, but for reasons never explained to the American public, corporate tax cuts were made permanent.

6. There is nothing patriotic about providing tax cuts to the wealthy, particularly when there are no assurances within the legislation that guarantees that this monetary "windfall" will be reinvested in the economy to create additional employment.

7. There is nothing unpatriotic, despite the Trump's rhetoric, about demanding that this President make his tax returns public to assure Americans that this legislation doesn't represent a massive conflict of interest - particularly as it relates to the changes in "pass through" taxation! If the President doesn't trust the American public, why should they trust him?

8. Just how does this tax legislation, that the President signed, serve to "drain the swamp" - one could make a convincing argument that it actually made the "swamp" a whole lot deeper!

Foxfyre said:

Don't try to find an argument that will convince me that we should be bringing more of the world's poor here and further weaken our ability to be a role model for the world and help when we are desperately needed in emergencies. I don't think such an argument exists.

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I well understand from your posts such an argument would not exist. That is why I did not present one. My post was more a symbolic indication that your opinion is not universal, even among evangelicals and people who predominantly vote Republican.

jovanovic said:

even in modern times there have been alot of killings from people who call themself christians, look up lord resistence army in uganda and lets not forget that USA is dropping bombs on many nations killing alot of civilians

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So how do you know if those stories are true or not, were you there?

The AF doesn't just go around indiscriminately bombing people for the heck of it. They target the bad guys that would keep the people of that country in tyranny, and keep collateral damage to a minimum whenever possible. I'm hoping you aren't considering the bad guys to be innocent civilians.

redleghunter said:

The proper DoD and State Dept terminology would be "failed states." I'm sure that would be insulting to some but when I was doing nation building that's what they called nations which had horrible and oppressive central governments, exploited their citizens and used Marxist or despotic economics which impoverished their citizens.

That is the polished response which someone could have stuck under Trump's nose.

Now the guy who runs the paper stand on 5th and Park in NYC would probably use the language Trump did to explain what I laid out above. It seems Trump has retained some of his NY pie hole (mouth). Which as POTUS he needs to jettison.

The fact is these failed and failing states (nations) have severe poverty and unemployment. The US being the great nation it is will take in tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands (small city size) a year to help out. As low skilled workers primarily, most will not find work and be reliant on government help. Some will exceed and open businesses and do well. Perhaps Trump should focus on those good news stories (there are plenty).

But bringing in thousands due to a home nation failing is not the solution. Failed states need their citizenry to rebuild. If not they become havens for terrorists and crime syndicates.

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Get a life. I, a conservative, have a thread here where I criticized other conservatives for their hostility toward undocumented immigrants: Why so much conservative hostility towards undocumented immigrants?

Searching1God said:

I am appaled at the racism in the US evangelical community.

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Have attended many, many Christian churches (including black) during my life and have seen next to NONE OF THAT.
They wish for us to --
Time for us to flog ourselves?

M-Bob

compassion 4 humanity said:

Get a life. I, a conservative, have a thread here where I criticized other conservatives for their hostility toward undocumented immigrants: Why so much conservative hostility towards undocumented immigrants?

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Not even on topic.

Searching1God said:

Did anybody go to church today or yesterday (for those who are Sabbat observant) ?

Did your pastor address or even allude to the controversy over Trump's comments? Or did he just ignore the issue and it was business as usual on the eve of MLK's holiday?

My pastor did. He happens to be white and the church I attend happens to be a mostly white church. And I am glad my pastor had the guts to address (though not directly) the lack of compassion and the dehumanizing of people who are downtrodden.

I would not want to be part of any other type of church.

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Our small group leader in Bible study addressed the pastor who admitted sexual sin as a youth pastor. He made a point everyone missed the main issue. Sin.

We don't discuss politics in church. But we do discuss quite often how we are all responsible for our own actions.

Mountainmanbob said:

Have attended many, many Christian churches (including black) during my life and have seen next to NONE OF THAT.
They wish for us to --
Time for us to flog ourselves?

M-Bob

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You make a good point. Seems there is a bigger issue among Christians. Self righteous piety.

Searching1God said:

Did anybody go to church today?
Did your pastor address or even allude to the controversy over Trump's comments?

Or did he just ignore the issue and it was business as usual on the eve of MLK's holiday?

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Yes, we went to church today.
No, our Pastor did not mention Trump.
And never does.
Preached gospel straight from the Book.

M-Bob