Scriptural Verification of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church

DeaconDean

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Then the 'drunken in the night' idea is for you, since you cannot read this plainly written Scripture in Rev.19:2-3 that sets the timing of the first nine verses:

Rev 19:2-3
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for He hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.


3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

KJV

Fault me if you want, but you just ignored how 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17 does not match up with 2 Thess. 1:7-8; and Rev. 19:11-21.

2 separate events, one rapture related (The Day of Christ), and one judgment related (The Day of the Lord).

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Davy

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Except that 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 does not agree with 2 Thess. 1:7-8 or Rev. 19:11-21.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You are wrong about that. 2 Thess.1:6-10 is about same event of Christ's 2nd coming like the 1 Thess.4:13-17 verses are, and the 1 Cor.15:51-54 Scripture. There is only written in God's Word of Christ's first coming to die on the cross, and the second coming after the tribulation.
 
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You err greatly, not knowing The Scriptures, because the grafting of the 12 tribes timing is the same timing of His coming for His Church. Probably a majority of His Church in the western Christian nations today are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Jesus returns one time, on the "day of the Lord", and that is what the "as a thief" timing is in reference to (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10), and that's what you were scared to answer with bypassing that question.
LOL ....... You are a crackup. I'm pretty sure God knows who is who and he is specifically sealing 144000 witnesses.........12 thousand from each tribe.

Rev 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Because the fall fruit harvest is going to be the 12 tribes and will occur at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
 
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Davy

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Fault me if you want, but you just ignored how 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17 does not match up with 2 Thess. 1:7-8; and Rev. 19:11-21.

2 separate events, one rapture related (The Day of Christ), and one judgment related (The Day of the Lord).

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Your denial of the Rev.19:2-3 Scripture written in simplicity is enough. It doesn't make your position look favorable at all.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The seven year tribulation begins with the "he" who confirms a binding agreement/covenant with many, in Dan.9:27.

God did not say that the final covenant week to be considered as a 7 years great tribulation. That is a private interpretation of yours just like you demanded that the prince of Daniel 9:26 to be Titus instead of Christ.

The "he," all three of them in that verse, is the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, and the man of lawlessness, of 2 Thess.2:4 and 8, the Antichrist.

That is a violently twisting of Scripture that you attempted to replace "he" with a third party outside the context that mentioned the only one prince which is Christ.

The "he" all referred to Messiah the Prince, according to context, but you did not like it and tried to replace the "he" with your imagination of antichrist by linking the verse to the "beast", "little horn", "man of lawlessness" and "antichrist" to fit your faulty seven year tribulation theory and not to mention silly 2,000 years gap theory too.
 
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DeaconDean

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And YOUR interpretation is based on the secular book of Josephus which is bad bad bad for a "qualified" teacher like yourself even to consider this instead of allowing Scripture to interpret itself!

I have both of Josephus books: The Antiquities of the Jews, and The War of the Jews.

From history, we know Cestus Galius seized Jerusalem from AD 66-69. Titus the elder took over, but having been called back because Nero was dead, and Rome needed and emperor, Titus the younger took over in AD 70. And we know what happened then.

According to Josephus, Eleazar, looked out from Mesada in AD 73 and saw Fort Antonia still standing.

If Josephus is correct, then the wholesale destruction of Jerusalem did not occur until after AD 73. Which means that Matthew 24:1-2 did not happen in AD 70.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Quasar92

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Funny, there is some discrepancy as to whether it is the "Saints" or His "Holy Angels":

"[and] all the saints with thee:
the Targum, and the Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions, read, "with him"; meaning either the holy angels; so Aben Ezra, Kimchi, and Ben Melech; who will attend him partly for the glory of his majesty, and partly for terror to the wicked, and also for service; or rather glorified saints, the spirits of just men made perfect, whom Christ will bring with him to be united to their bodies, which will now be raised, and to be with him in the new heavens and new earth, which will now be formed, and to be presented to him, and dwell with him, during the thousand years."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.


The following is from the NIV:

1After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

“Hallelujah!

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

2for true and just are his judgments.

He has condemned the great prostitute

who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.

He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

3And again they shouted:

“Hallelujah!

The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

4The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried:

“Amen, Hallelujah!”

5Then a voice came from the throne, saying:

“Praise our God,

all you his servants,

you who fear him,

both great and small!”

6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

“Hallelujah!

For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

7Let us rejoice and be glad

and give him glory!

For the wedding of the Lamb has come,

and his bride has made herself ready.

8Fine linen, bright and clean,

was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)"

Reference in verse 8 is to the Church, who are seen again in verse 14, where Jesus returns to earth in His second coming WITH THEM.


Quasar92
 
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TribulationSigns

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LOL ....... You are a crackup. I'm pretty sure God knows who is who and he is specifically sealing 144000 witnesses.........12 thousand from each tribe.

Rev 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Because the fall fruit harvest is going to be the 12 tribes and will occur at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Obviously you do not know what you are talking about.

The spiritual signification of the number 144,000 can only be all the FULLNESS of the Tribes of Israel. The total fullness of the children of God, bar none. The one and "only" Israel of God that could be sealed in their foreheads, servants of our God that cannot be hurt. No other Israel of God is God's servants sealed of the Spirit with Holy Security. There are NOT two separate bodies called Israel that are sealed separate bodies. There is not a Jewish Israel of God and then a Gentile Israel of God. Israel is one holy people of God. Not two. Not 144,000 head counts. The Israel of God is not divided into 144,000 Jews, PLUS some Gentiles. There is neither Jew nor Greek, Israel is all ONE BODY in Christ which 144,000 signifies!

Listen to what Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2:12-19
  • "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
  • But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
  • For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
  • Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
  • And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
  • And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
  • For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
  • Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; "
Hello? Not two bodies. Not one for Jews and one for Gentiles. ONE! One body of 144,000 which is symbolically all Elects from Old and New Testament!

The tribes of Israel that are sealed as servants of God are all one people, not ethnic Jews only. For you to say that Israel is one body of Jews and Gentiles at peace with God through one man Jesus Christ, AND THEN to claim the 144,000 sealed of all the tribes of ethnic Israel are only Jews, is a non-sequitur! The word is the authority, not our own in personal opinions and private interpretations.
 
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Davy

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The 144,000 of Rev.7 are all... Israelites by birth, and believers on Christ. The "great multitude" represents believing Gentiles. Both make up Christ's Church that will be gathered 'together'... on the last day when Jesus comes.

Rev 7:2-3
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

KJV

The only ones NOT 'sealed' with God's seal in the end are those NOT of Christ's Church. That 'seal' is about the sealing by The Holy Spirit:

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

KJV

The timing when the earth is hurt is on the "day of the Lord" which is to come "as a thief in the night", burning man's work off the earth by God's consuming fire (2 Pet.3:10). That's when Jesus said He comes "as a thief" (Rev.16:15).


LOL ....... You are a crackup. I'm pretty sure God knows who is who and he is specifically sealing 144000 witnesses.........12 thousand from each tribe.

Rev 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Because the fall fruit harvest is going to be the 12 tribes and will occur at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
 
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Quasar92

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Q, Titus was not of the Julio-Claudians. Titus was of the Flavian family.

The 7 kings of Revelation 17:10
Julius Caesar
Augustus Caeser
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero (last of the historic Julio-Claudians)
end times little horn - forthcoming

After the Julio Claudians, then came the Flavian dynasty. Titus was of the wrong family line to be the fulfillment of king #7 (and consequently #8).

King #7, it indicates in Revelation 17:10 must continue a short space. That king, the little horn, will be killed and brought back to life as the 8th king called the beast - and the short space is the 42 months.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
______________________________________________________________


Could Titus having died in the past, and that being the mortally wounded head in Revelation 13?

No, it cannot. Because the window which the person is killed and brought back to life - all has to be between the beginning of the 70th week and the middle of the 70th week.
Q, Titus was not of the Julio-Claudians. Titus was of the Flavian family.

The 7 kings of Revelation 17:10
Julius Caesar
Augustus Caeser
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero (last of the historic Julio-Claudians)
end times little horn - forthcoming

After the Julio Claudians, then came the Flavian dynasty. Titus was of the wrong family line to be the fulfillment of king #7 (and consequently #8).

King #7, it indicates in Revelation 17:10 must continue a short space. That king, the little horn, will be killed and brought back to life as the 8th king called the beast - and the short space is the 42 months.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
______________________________________________________________


Could Titus having died in the past, and that being the mortally wounded head in Revelation 13?

No, it cannot. Because the window which the person is killed and brought back to life - all has to be between the beginning of the 70th week and the middle of the 70th week.


I made no statement as to what family Titus came from. You have what I post mixed up with someone else. The fact of the matter is, he was of the Flavian family.


Quasar92
 
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TribulationSigns

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I have both of Josephus books: The Antiquities of the Jews, and The War of the Jews.

Not a Bible as the authority, I see.

From history, we know Cestus Galius seized Jerusalem from AD 66-69. Titus the elder took over, but having been called back because Nero was dead, and Rome needed and emperor, Titus the younger took over in AD 70. And we know what happened then.

According to Josephus, Eleazar, looked out from Mesada in AD 73 and saw Fort Antonia still standing.

Saying the ungodly book of Josephus that you worship.

If Josephus is correct, then the wholesale destruction of Jerusalem did not occur until after AD 73. Which means that Matthew 24:1-2 did not happen in AD 70.

Who cares if it's 73, 94 or 70AD. How about we go to the Bible, our only authority, for once and we must allow God to interpret his prophecies. Not Josephus who is not even Christian, to begin with!
 
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DeaconDean

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Your denial of the Rev.19:2-3 Scripture written in simplicity is enough. It doesn't make your position look favorable at all.


Does it not say:

"for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever." -Rev. 19:2-3 (KJV)

This is a case where the KJV "got it wrong", rather, rendered incorrectly.

The phrase "hath avenged" is only partially right.

The Greek word "hath" is not in the text.

"καὶ ἐξεδίκησεν τὸ αἷμα τῶν δούλων"

Isn't "ἐξεδίκησεν" 3 person singular, aor., act., indict?

Meaning that He has done this in the past?

Sorry dude. That does not match up with your "(a future-forward look)"

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Not a Bible as the authority, I see.



Saying the ungodly book of Josephus that you worship.



Who cares if it's 73, 94 or 70AD. How about we go to the Bible, our only authority, for once and we must allow God to interpret his prophecies. Not Josephus who is not even Christian, to begin with!

Not once in this thread have I ONCE equated Josephus with that of the scripture.

And I appreciate you not saying I did.

We can learn a lot from reading his books, not that its entirely true though. A lot of Josephus' information was "2nd hand" knowledge.

The difference between you and I, I have studied eschatology for over 40 years.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Douggg

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God did not say that the final covenant week to be considered as a 7 years great tribulation. That is a private interpretation of yours just like you demanded that the prince of Daniel 9:26 to be Titus instead of Christ.
Well, it is not Titus, but the prince who shall come is not referring to Jesus either.

The confirmation of the covenant for seven years is a requirement Moses made of all future leaders of Israel. Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

As that second generation of the children of Israel were about to enter the promised land - and Moses having been told he would not be going with them - gathered the nation of Israel together and gave an inspired oratory about how God was bringing them into their own land which He had promised, when He offered to be their God, and as long as they followed Him, they would reside in the land.

Moses wanted to make sure all future generations would not forget what God had promised and told them, so Moses made a requirement that all future leaders of Israel assemble the nation of Israel and give a similar big oratory.

One of the requirements, though, is the speech has to be given from the place of God's choosing. Which I have talked to Jews themselves where that is - and they told me they hold the place of God's choosing to be the temple mount.

Of course that is not going to fly with the muslims - making a big speech that the land over there belongs to the Jews!

So conditions will not be right until following Gog/Magog, that the big speech will be given by the leader of Israel. And how more appropriate than by the messiah, King of Israel.

That's what starts the 70th week, 7 years.
 
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Douggg

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I made no statement as to what family Titus came from. You have what I post mixed up with someone else. The fact of the matter is, he was of the Flavian family.


Quasar92
I didn't mean to imply you did, Q. I was explaining why Titus is not the fulfillment of anything.
 
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Obviously you do not know what you are talking about.

The spiritual signification of the number 144,000 can only be all the FULLNESS of the Tribes of Israel. The total fullness of the children of God, bar none. The one and "only" Israel of God that could be sealed in their foreheads, servants of our God that cannot be hurt. No other Israel of God is God's servants sealed of the Spirit with Holy Security. There are NOT two separate bodies called Israel that are sealed separate bodies. There is not a Jewish Israel of God and then a Gentile Israel of God. Israel is one holy people of God. Not two. Not 144,000 head counts. The Israel of God is not divided into 144,000 Jews, PLUS some Gentiles. There is neither Jew nor Greek, Israel is all ONE BODY in Christ which 144,000 signifies!


Hello? Not two bodies. Not one for Jews and one for Gentiles. ONE! One body of 144,000 which is symbolically all Elects from Old and New Testament!

The tribes of Israel that are sealed as servants of God are all one people, not ethnic Jews only. For you to say that Israel is one body of Jews and Gentiles at peace with God through one man Jesus Christ, AND THEN to claim the 144,000 sealed of all the tribes of ethnic Israel are only Jews, is a non-sequitur! The word is the authority, not our own in personal opinions and private interpretations.

Obviously when God says it, I believe it.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Obviously, since the 144000 are the firstfruits unto God..........that means there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes..........whether you want to believe that or not. It is not the church being raptured at the end Revelation 14 as they are long gone........pre trib. And since we see what the 1st fruits are, we know what the harvest is.

All we have to do is read EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS. We don't need to makeup anything.
 
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The timing when the earth is hurt is on the "day of the Lord" which is to come "as a thief in the night", burning man's work off the earth by God's consuming fire (2 Pet.3:10). That's when Jesus said He comes "as a thief" (Rev.16:15).

Rev 16:15........that's when Jesus comes as a thief............THE SECOND TIME. The first time he comes as a thief it will be like the days of Noah when Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. He will come for his church at the trump of God and the voice of the turtle will be heard in the land.

The second time he comes.........all eyes will see Him. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. This will happen at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets............Just like He says.
 
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BABerean2

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Some such as Edward Young and Phillip Mauro interpret the "He" as a reference to the Messiah primarily because the entire prophecy is about the Messiah and the premise that there is no (to use their words) "future 'prince' making a covenant with" Israel. This interpretation makes little sense because the new covenant in His blood is an everlasting covenant, not a seven year covenant and not a covenant which He will ever break.

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

The text says nothing about breaking a covenant. It says the sacrifice and oblation ends in the middle of the week. Hebrews 10:16-18 confirms that this is what occurred in the covenant fulfilled at Calvary.


..................................................................................

(Dan 9:27) And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

..............................................................

We know from Matthew 10:5-7 that Christ commanded the Gospel to be taken to Daniel's people, and not the Gentiles.
His earthly ministry lasted for about 3 1/2 years.

In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals that he did not begin his ministry to the Gentiles until about 3 years after his conversion.

Therefore, the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for about a 7 year period, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.


.
 
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BABerean2

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... these events described in the 70th seven have not yet occurred. Regardless of whether you see the "he" who makes the final 7 year covenant as the Messiah the Prince or the prince who is to come, these events described have not yet taken place. No recorded historical covenant/agreement/treaty I am aware of fits.

If I promise to paint your house "after" the 69th week, it will not be painted until the 70th week or later.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
(See the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13.)

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
(See Daniel 9:24)

.......................................................

New Covenant of Christ

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

NKJV
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BABerean2

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The seven year tribulation begins with the "he" who confirms a binding agreement/covenant with many, in Dan.9:27. The "he," all three of them in that verse, is the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, and the man of lawlessness, of 2 Thess.2:4 and 8, the Antichrist, as recorded below:

Are you as "qualified" as Dr. Kelly Varner?

After all he holds a doctoral degree, and he says the above is not correct.

Since you often ask others where they got their "qualifications", it would be logical to find out where you fit into the scheme of things, as compared to Dr. Kelly Varner.


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