Muslims claim Jerusalem as theirs.

NeedyFollower

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You fail to see the importance of the city of Jerusalem to the return to earth of our Messiah. He returns to the City, specifically to the Mount of Olives near the Eastern gate.

Zech 14.4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.​

That is the actual earthly City of Jerusalem, not the New Jerusalem.
Also, consider HIS words spoken from that same place:

Matt 23.37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​
Hi Brother Dave . In that day His feet Will stand on the Mount of Olives. But what if 6 billion humans stand in His way ? What if 200 billion humans be they Muslims , Jews or christian try to prevent His return ? Will He then not be able ? John the Baptist did come in the Spirit of Elijah and said to make our paths straight..he did prepare for the coming of the Lord but the only hints we have as to his return is " It will be like the days of Noah and like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah . According to 2nd Timothy Chapter 3 , it will be a time of religion and no power. A time of Apostasy or the great falling away attested to in Thessalonians ( which I believe is a reference in part to Isaiah 6:11-12-
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.


I think our theology has made us think too highly of ourselves. ..in other words that WE will direct conditions for the Lord's return. He can not return until we do xyz but clearly we know that He will return as a thief in the night ..suddenly and unexpectedly . Have we made man a god and are we trying to direct His affairs ...This sounds like the man of sin in Thessalonians . As a disciple of our Lord you recall where he says that we will no longer worship in Jerusalem . That was of course only one of the many changes wrought by the birth , death and Resurrection of Christ .
 
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Heber Book List

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Well brother .....I do not mind you humbling me by saying I had an intelligent response that missed the boat. ( In other words , that I am too smart for my own good ...I can't see the forest for the trees ) i think that of course may be true and whereas knowledge puffs up , love edifies. If my response failed to edify you and exalt Christ ( also known as the truth ) then it did indeed miss the mark. Like the Jewish mid-rash , I wish to discuss an understand . So that I may try to understand what you were explaining , I will restate what I thought the point you were making.

I thought you were saying that while it is true that God does not dwell in an earthly temple , he has not changed any of the requirements that existed when there was an earthly temple but that the synagogue(s) has replaced the temple . At least that is what I thought you were saying. And to follow the Old Covenant to it's logical conclusion is to deny the new covenant ...It seems that would deny a change has happened ..Emmanuel ...G_D with us as you know. I am not opposed to the assembling together but making the building ( or Jerusalem ) of any importance is an old covenant thought process which will lead people to place more emphasis on the outward than the inward....rituals will once again rule the day. Praise and Worship teams ...expensive Rams Horns ..Holy attire ...gold encrusted buildings ...and gold encrusted lives . Look in Amos 6:5 and ask yourself ...How did believers get here ?

I will try to be more direct . I do not believe Yeshua went to the temple to worship , to meet God , etc. I believe he went to teach, exhort and to pray . I think he worshiped everywhere he breathed ..being the truth..He was and is worship . It is my understanding that believers are His body ..the temple of God on earth . When was Yeshua , Yeshua ? From Friday Sundown until Saturday Sundown ? How about when he was at the well ...was He the body of Christ then or was He only the Messiah while at the synagogue ? Not only did His life change everything ..His death and Resurrection changed everything ..It had never happened before . Fortunately the Law WAS changed , otherwise you and I would have no high priest making intercession for you and I when we don't love one another and others as much as we both want to . I hope we will by G_D's grace .
Pray for me and share the good news of G_D's mercy. I take it you " became as a Jew" so that you may win Jews to Christ ? I am not saying that this is the case but please be careful not to become like Col. Nicholson in Bridge over the River Kwai . It only happens to sincere and zealous people . Who owns Jerusalem ? G_D .

The points I was making were:

a) that we know G_d doesn't live in a building

b) G_d has always called his people to worship

c) in years past this was to the Temple for the 3 Feasts, at least

d) then to the synagogue (which is the Temple in miniature)

e) He calls people to worship him in Church By the bell(s) or a verbal Call to Worship

f) We have to respond to that call to worship

g) we cannot, as some congregations do, require G_d to be present at our worship because he is already there.
 
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Heber Book List

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Hi Brother Dave . In that day His feet Will stand on the Mount of Olives. But what if 6 billion humans stand in His way ? What if 200 billion humans be they Muslims , Jews or christian try to prevent His return ? Will He then not be able ? John the Baptist did come in the Spirit of Elijah and said to make our paths straight..he did prepare for the coming of the Lord but the only hints we have as to his return is " It will be like the days of Noah and like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah . According to 2nd Timothy Chapter 3 , it will be a time of religion and no power. A time of Apostasy or the great falling away attested to in Thessalonians ( which I believe is a reference in part to Isaiah 6:11-12-
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.


I think our theology has made us think too highly of ourselves. ..in other words that WE will direct conditions for the Lord's return. He can not return until we do xyz but clearly we know that He will return as a thief in the night ..suddenly and unexpectedly . Have we made man a god and are we trying to direct His affairs ...This sounds like the man of sin in Thessalonians . As a disciple of our Lord you recall where he says that we will no longer worship in Jerusalem . That was of course only one of the many changes wrought by the birth , death and Resurrection of Christ .

Theologians study, contrast and compare scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 in order to keep the real truth of scripture from being whittled away by fanciful arguments that those who do not understand the whole Bible often paste in fora like these :). Let me show me some of the points omitted in the above post:

The bit in red is a mis-quote from Isaiah. It had nothing to do with John - that is a Christian Testament 'adjustment' to make it fit John's ministry. Look closely and compare the punctuation used in the original with the apparent verbatim quote in John (not that punctuation was used in those days); the context needs to be taken into account, from both Isaiah and John, which can fit together, but are made to mean something else by the change in punctuation.

You have omitted the reference to Jesus' hint about his return: not until his Chosen People (the people of Jerusalem) can say: baruch, haba b'Shem Adonai.

You have not mentioned that the book of Revelation tells us that two witnesses will be killed and lay dead on the streets of Jerusalem for three days, before the end.

:)
 
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Open Heart

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No. Prior to the mandate, the Ottoman Empire
owned most of the land in Israel. The second
largest landowners were the absentee Turks.
Like most countries, Israel had and has public
land and private land. The government either
owns or is caretaker of all public lands. Britain
just held the land taken from the Ottomans to
parcel it out like the other mandates.
I think you are going to need to give a source for this. I don't think that having authority over a land is the same thing as owning it.
 
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Open Heart

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No ..I am not in a church for the church should have known I was lost but did not . I am by G_D's goodness in Christ and belong to Him because He found me.
I can't read your mind or heart. I simply reply to the posts you put up.
 
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Open Heart

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Are you questioning Britain or the Ottoman Empire?
Of course not. I agree they both, at their respective times, had authority over the territory. That doesn't mean they owned the land.
 
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pat34lee

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Of course not. I agree they both, at their respective times, had authority over the territory. That doesn't mean they owned the land.

In that vein, you could question whether any country's
government actually owns the land. Ultimately, they
can't because the land outlives all governments. That
doesn't stop them from claiming it and other countries
recognizing their right to ownership of the land.
 
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Open Heart

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In that vein, you could question whether any country's
government actually owns the land. Ultimately, they
can't because the land outlives all governments. That
doesn't stop them from claiming it and other countries
recognizing their right to ownership of the land.
Let's consider the land in the US. There are certain areas of land that are Federal domain, such as the National Parks. But most of the land is privately owned. My mother, for example, owns the land upon which her home is built. Ownership is what is legally recognized in a court of law.
 
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pat34lee

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Let's consider the land in the US. There are certain areas of land that are Federal domain, such as the National Parks. But most of the land is privately owned. My mother, for example, owns the land upon which her home is built. Ownership is what is legally recognized in a court of law.

You will probably be surprised how much land that the
government (state and federal) owns in the USA. I will
find a few facts and post them here.

First, remember that the government bought much of
our land from other nations, from France and Mexico to
Russia.

"According to the Congressional Research Service, the U.S. government owns nearly half the land in the 11 coterminous western states, as well as more than 60 percent of Alaska. But in the rest of the country, only 4 percent of the land is federally held."
lead_960.png

The Massive (and Empty) Federal Lands of the American West

There is a table on this site that lists public v private ownership
of land in the fifty states. The total comes up to:
39.8% public - government owned
60.2% private
Public and Private Land Percentages by US States : Facts & Information : SummitPost

And where do you suppose the majority of our natural
resources reside? Think green and the map above.

Something else I just thought of. Eminent domain and taxes.
If the government can take your land for any reason, do you
really own it? It was originally illegal to tax property for just
that reason.
 
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Open Heart

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Something else I just thought of. Eminent domain and taxes.
If the government can take your land for any reason, do you
really own it? It was originally illegal to tax property for just
that reason.
Yes, even with eminant domain and taxes, my mother still is the legal owner of her land.
 
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NeedyFollower

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The points I was making were:

a) that we know G_d doesn't live in a building

b) G_d has always called his people to worship

c) in years past this was to the Temple for the 3 Feasts, at least

d) then to the synagogue (which is the Temple in miniature)

Brother ...I appreciate you posting these in points so that I may reference my understanding. You may know better than I but is not the meaning of synagogue "a gathering or assembly" rather than a building built for that purpose ? So I do not see a new covenant commandant that fulfilled the old covenant shadow other than " forsake not the assembling yourselves together as the manner of some is but exhorting one another and so much more as you see the day approaching " .....and this was not for worship but rather to the exhortation unto love and good works ..to remind each other that our purpose is the glory of G_D through the gift of His Son . Our purpose is the same as Israel now that the dividing wall has been removed . ( though Peter had to be reminded by Paul when he got caught up with those who put the wall of separation back up ..what humility Peter had ! Do you not love him ? Peter who had every right to correct Paul ??/ Peter who lived with our Lord and had his feet washed allowed himself to be corrected by Paul for Peter loved the Truth and Paul spoke truth ( which of course had nothing to do with Paul) ...and this was after Peter was converted !! How lovely is that ??? That is why we are to let the prophets speak two and three and to let the other judge
..I do understand that after the destruction of the temple and before in the diaspora , synagogues were utilized by Jews ( and G_D fearers ) ..Christ often went there in order to teach, correct and set in order ( but I think Christ worshipped everywhere and all the time much as we are now able . You may know this or maybe correct my understanding but I believe I read there used to be a requirement of ten ? But then Christ said where two or more are gathered in His name .

I believe the one sent( apostle )by our Lord Christ to gentile believers like myself ..the apostle Paul met some assembled by a river ...I believe that Lydia , a seller of purple dye was among them.

e) He calls people to worship him in Church By the bell(s) or a verbal Call to Worship
Yes , I do believe that many are called but not in a church and again not to worship per se ..the church is His body ..many members , one body . They gathered for the breaking of bread ( a form of remembrance that we being many , are one body . They gathered to comfort each other ( for their losses were great through persecution, and often being cast out of their former assemblies for following a homeless , day-laborer/ magician / blasphemer who caused insurrection and crucified a criminal of the state. Many also lost their employment ( which if you were Jewish ...was typically through your family that had just disowned you. )

f) We have to respond to that call to worship
For me anyway , to know G_D is to adore Him ...when I think on Him and His mercy ...I could fall down anywhere in gratitude. You may not have been a great a sinner as I but I know how much I have been forgiven. I know what disgusting sins that a pure lamb had to bear for Me ..what a horror for him to bear one of mine but to take them all and not mine alone ? And Yeshua did nothing but what the Father showed him ..did nothing of His own accord ... Though I realize it is often easy to be like the nine lepers and not return to give G_D the glory , it is difficult NOT to worship when we think on Him .

g) we cannot, as some congregations do, require G_d to be present at our worship because he is already there.
I agree but I also see that the Truth has often been cast out of the assemblies ...taken to a brow of a hill ...often persecuted by " the church " but normally only when the Truth requires a cost ...otherwise it is like in Ezekiel 33:31..Lip service but the heart after gain.

But to keep this in line with the OP. Who is able to destroy/takeover an earthly building or city and prevent us from worshipping in Spirit and Truth ..whether it be down by the riverside like Lydia and friends ..in a synagogue where the Truth is adored or in a home where two or more are gathered ? Is that not the point to the Samaritan woman by the Messiah ..the giver of Living water ?
 
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Heber Book List

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I agree but I also see that the Truth has often been cast out of the assemblies ...taken to a brow of a hill ...often persecuted by " the church " but normally only when the Truth requires a cost ...otherwise it is like in Ezekiel 33:31..Lip service but the heart after gain.

But to keep this in line with the OP. Who is able to destroy/takeover an earthly building or city and prevent us from worshipping in Spirit and Truth ..whether it be down by the riverside like Lydia and friends ..in a synagogue where the Truth is adored or in a home where two or more are gathered ? Is that not the point to the Samaritan woman by the Messiah ..the giver of Living water ?

1) Where two or three are gathered, in context, relates to our righteous judging of brothers and sisters in the faith.

2) The woman at the well account is actually about Yeshua opening her eyes to the true Law of G_d; living water is often a metaphor for the Law - not just the so called 10 commandments - that was written on both sides of both tablets given to Moshe, as scripture says.

:)
 
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Almost there

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The Jordanian police were certainly stopping Jews and Christians from praying on the Mount, and restricting how many non-Muslims were able to be on the Mount. People were queuing for hours just to be able to go up the steps to see the mosque, let alone see anything else.
Some useful perspective:
 
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NeedyFollower

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Theologians study, contrast and compare scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 in order to keep the real truth of scripture from being whittled away by fanciful arguments that those who do not understand the whole Bible often paste in fora like these :). Let me show me some of the points omitted in the above post:

The bit in red is a mis-quote from Isaiah. It had nothing to do with John - that is a Christian Testament 'adjustment' to make it fit John's ministry. Look closely and compare the punctuation used in the original with the apparent verbatim quote in John (not that punctuation was used in those days); the context needs to be taken into account, from both Isaiah and John, which can fit together, but are made to mean something else by the change in punctuation.

Is it a mis-quote from Isaiah ? As you are aware, those who "knew " scripture very, very well looked for an earthly prince and did not recognize Him when He appeared and would not hear Him. They had too much invested to hear Him...could not be wrong as it were.
I agree with you in that it had nothing to do with John and had everything to do with G_D. John was a mouthpiece. He stood in the council of the Lord and spoke the Lord's words as did Isaiah as did the Messiah. Got him in trouble with Herod ( who I believe was Idumaen but pretended that he practiced some Judiasm in that he would not eat pork but had no trouble killing his own sons..that prompted one roman to say he would rather be Herod's pig than his son. )

You have omitted the reference to Jesus' hint about his return: not until his Chosen People (the people of Jerusalem) can say: baruch, haba b'Shem Adonai.
The people of Jerusalem ? Yes when the time of the gentiles be fulfilled but after the 144,000 it says of every tribe and every tongue and every nation ...those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb ..not the blood of an animal ..this will fulfill G-D's promise to Abraham ..it is larger than the Jews as was always the purpose of our Father .

You have not mentioned that the book of Revelation tells us that two witnesses will be killed and lay dead on the streets of Jerusalem for three days, before the end.

I think it says in that great city which is "spiritually" called Egypt and Sodom where also our Lord was crucified. Is it Jerusalem ? Or has the Lord also been crucified in our own day and in many ways. He says ... I am the Way the Truth and the Life . No truth ..no Messiah . and the sins of your sister sodom are pride , fullness of bread , idlness of hands and you dealt not your bread to the hungry and the poor .
I think it fine for a godless country to crucify the truth for it does not bring a reproach on His name . But to build buildings in His name ..to chase the dollar, our own happiness , the idols of madison avenue and hollywood and the pleasures of this life and teach our children to do likewise by our example while we simultaneously give our children and the poor to the secular government to raise so again we can chase our own desires ...and say we are children of G-D .....how does that not crucify the truth ?
The quote from Malachai 4:6 is also very instructive ...It seems that the hearts of the fathers are NOT to their children ...they are to the new Ford F-150 or the Dodge Ram ..or the cruise vacation or the porsche ..or the new secretary or the winners of the super bowl .....mammon and vanity . And we have become like our idols with eyes that can not see and ears that can not hear . And our children ? They are being raised by society but we have better things to do ... Ye are the salt of the earth but if the salt has lost it's saltiness , it is good for nothing but to be trod underfoot.

I do not see any difference in a godless muslim , jewish , christian , buddist , atheist . So the fight over the temple is a side show. Our hearts is the problem ...not the real estate. It is only a distraction from that which matters most. Either that or the Messiah came so our hearts could remain wicked but we have earthly Jerusalem.

:)
 
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Heber Book List

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Your comments in blue, except Bible references...

Theologians study, contrast and compare scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 in order to keep the real truth of scripture from being whittled away by fanciful arguments that those who do not understand the whole Bible often paste in fora like these :). Let me show me some of the points omitted in the above post:

The bit in red is a mis-quote from Isaiah. It had nothing to do with John - that is a Christian Testament 'adjustment' to make it fit John's ministry. Look closely and compare the punctuation used in the original with the apparent verbatim quote in John (not that punctuation was used in those days); the context needs to be taken into account, from both Isaiah and John, which can fit together, but are made to mean something else by the change in punctuation.

Is it a mis-quote from Isaiah ? As you are aware, those who "knew " scripture very, very well looked for an earthly prince and did not recognize Him when He appeared and would not hear Him. They had too much invested to hear Him...could not be wrong as it were.
I agree with you in that it had nothing to do with John and had everything to do with G_D. John was a mouthpiece. He stood in the council of the Lord and spoke the Lord's words as did Isaiah as did the Messiah. Got him in trouble with Herod ( who I believe was Idumaen but pretended that he practiced some Judiasm in that he would not eat pork but had no trouble killing his own sons..that prompted one roman to say he would rather be Herod's pig than his son. )


Response: It may not be a mis-quote, technically - it may have been purposeful change of scripture, but virtually every Chistian Testament has the same mis-quote!


You have omitted the reference to Jesus' hint about his return: not until his Chosen People (the people of Jerusalem) can say: baruch, haba b'Shem Adonai.
The people of Jerusalem ? Yes when the time of the gentiles be fulfilled but after the 144,000 it says of every tribe and every tongue and every nation ...those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb ..not the blood of an animal ..this will fulfill G-D's promise to Abraham ..it is larger than the Jews as was always the purpose of our Father .

Response: I can see no evidence in Scripture to support your view concerning the order in which these things will happen.



You have not mentioned that the book of Revelation tells us that two witnesses will be killed and lay dead on the streets of Jerusalem for three days, before the end.

I think it says in that great city which is "spiritually" called Egypt and Sodom where also our Lord was crucified. Is it Jerusalem ? Or has the Lord also been crucified in our own day and in many ways. He says ... I am the Way the Truth and the Life . No truth ..no Messiah . and the sins of your sister sodom are pride , fullness of bread , idlness of hands and you dealt not your bread to the hungry and the poor .
I think it fine for a godless country to crucify the truth for it does not bring a reproach on His name . But to build buildings in His name ..to chase the dollar, our own happiness , the idols of madison avenue and hollywood and the pleasures of this life and teach our children to do likewise by our example while we simultaneously give our children and the poor to the secular government to raise so again we can chase our own desires ...and say we are children of G-D .....how does that not crucify the truth ?
The quote from Malachai 4:6 is also very instructive ...It seems that the hearts of the fathers are NOT to their children ...they are to the new Ford F-150 or the Dodge Ram ..or the cruise vacation or the porsche ..or the new secretary or the winners of the super bowl .....mammon and vanity . And we have become like our idols with eyes that can not see and ears that can not hear . And our children ? They are being raised by society but we have better things to do ... Ye are the salt of the earth but if the salt has lost it's saltiness , it is good for nothing but to be trod underfoot.


Response: I cannot see your point in the above text


I do not see any difference in a godless muslim , jewish , christian , buddist , atheist . So the fight over the temple is a side show. Our hearts is the problem ...not the real estate. It is only a distraction from that which matters most. Either that or the Messiah came so our hearts could remain wicked but we have earthly Jerusalem.

Response: The 1st and 4th are different gods to the G_d of the 2nd and 3rd. The dispute over the Temple, logic tells us, if lost, will destroy the 2nd and 3rd. The Bible will have to be re-written so that Yeshua went to the Mosque, not the Temple, and he celebrated Muslim feast days, not Jewish and Christian.
 
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Heber Book List

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I am soo sorry ..I replied in the body of your post ..I am not good at this so please bear with me . I must run ..please pray as I know that you do .

Sorted it in post #118 by copy and paste and inserting responses in appropriate places. :)

Have prayed - trust you are OK? It is bed time here, now.
 
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