When did Lucifer Fall?

Isaiah 14:4-12 is part of a prophecy that refers to a future event to befall a Babylonian king: Nebuchadnezzar.

Satan, as the god of this system we live in, uses nations and apostate religions as instruments to accomplish his ambitions. (2 Corinthians 4:4; 1 John 5:19) This is symbolically illustrated at Revelations 13:1, 2; 17:9-11. Babylon, as the third world power of seven, is represented by one of the heads of the first “wild beast”-of which gets its authority from Satan. Compare/reference Daniel 2:31-43; 7:1-8; 8:1-25.

This king was instilled by Satan with the belief and arrogance that he would have complete dominion over the earth. Thus, he lifted himself up in his own heart and was in his own eyes and in the eyes of his admirers a “shining one” a “son of the dawn.” Compare Daniel 3:1-7

The phrase “have fallen from heaven,” in this context, is not literal but is symbolic to governments or to ruling powers that have exalted or lifted themselves up above their subjects. This was represented in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream by a symbolic tree with its height “reaching to heaven.”-Daniel 4:20-22.

brinny said:

Gnosticism is spoken of in the New Testament, as heresy.

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Citation please.

The Assyrian is Nimrod, which is being paralleled together with satan. (I'm going to say a lot of things here that will sound crazy town, but it's not. I assure you it accords with mainstream Biblical and ANE study). Combining what we know from historical research and Mesopotamian Cuneiform Japheth went west from Ararat while some of the descendants of Ham and Shem moved together into the Indus valley. After some time they moved west (which is why the Bible says they came from the east into Shinar). The city of Kish (aka Cush) was established, then Nimrod established cities below and above Kish. This is what we call Sumeria, a bi racial conglomerate of cities. Nimrod established Babel at Eridu, which was formerly a preflood city, likely the city established by the son of Cain. Eridu is where Etemenanki, the tower of Babel, is. Nimrod is Assyrian. The Bible does not list him as a son of Cush. It lists the sons of Cush and then separately says that Cush "Begot" Nimrod. (begot does not necessitate blood relation)

Nimrod is either Etana of Kish (King of Kish was a title, also used by Naram-sin) or Enmerkar. There is an interesting, but incomplete story about Etana where he ascends to heaven and then falls. satan is actually in this story. In the Cuneiform texts there is a serpent at the bottom of a tree and an eagle at the top. Although there is no indication that the serpent is satan in the text we can see from cylinder seals that this is actually the lion-serpent known as the Mushussu which is the same character as leviathan/yam/Lotan. The Etana story is most often depicted as a lion rather than a snake and sometimes a snake with a lion head. This Mushussu is also what appears in the epic of Gilgamesh written as snake (actually earthlion). So there is definitely something going on here with this character which has been lost to history.

Etana is also listed in the sumerian king list as a shepard (worthless shepard?) who ascended to heaven and consolidated the nations (alternate translation: fortified the lands). He is the only one on the list to have the "Dingir" which is the sign of diety. The Bible says he began to be a mighty one in the earth and does not list his decedents which may be an indication that he is no longer entirely human.

Enmerker is another person lost to history. In fact Naram-sin blames his lack of writing for the curse of Akkad. He is credited for developing Cuneiform, and sits about the time of the Uruk expansion which brought the whole land of Mesopotamia from Crete to Egypt to the Indus valley together through trade, warfare, and diplomacy. Enmerker is, in some accounts, the last ruler to have an apkallu (what the Bible calls "watchers") beside him. These Apkallu guided the kings and taught them the arts and means of civilization. Which certainly explains the sudden advancement in Sumeria; these guys weren't bumpkins, they had already mastered Trigonometry.

There are a couple of notable Assyrians throughout history. Sennacherib, that the Bible mentions, Ashurnasirpal who decorated cities with the skin of his enemies and then there is Nimrod who sits right in the middle of Gods second greatest action upon the earth at the tower of Babel. Nimrod is the strongest candidate for the Assyrian, and given his association with Osiris he is also a strong candidate for a resurrected king.

(This is also going to sound crazy-town as well, but hear me out because the topics here are being discussed in ANE and Biblical academia while we learn about the "7 steps to the abundant life" in the pews. So it's going to sound new and bizarre but if people research it I think will understand the correlations. Just as Greek context is very important to the NT, ANE context is going to be vital to the OT)

Heaven is everything that is outside the circumference of the earth. There are multiple heavens, one of which God dwells in. The fall of satan in the Garden of Eden is what is known as a Cythonic fall. The phrase you shall crawl on your belly and eat dust refers to his Cythonic fall. That is not to say that there is not serpent imagery involved, but we know this was not a literal snake but a seraphim. (see Nachash). The concept of crawling on your belly, in the cythonic sense can be seen from an old Syraic Charm

"Why do you creep along on your knees and move upon
' your hands ? ' And they replied, ' We go on our
* hands, so that we may eat flesh, and we crawl along
'upon our hands, so that we may drink blood.' As
soon as I saw it, I prevented them from devouring,
and I cursed and bound them in the name of the
Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost..."

The eating dust goes back to the ancient idea that the dead required food and water or they would rise up from the realm of the dead and seek their ancestors or any they happened upon. They were said to eat dust if sustenance was not provided. Archeologist Thompson R Cambell, further says of the dead..."If for any reason these attentions should cease, and the spirit of the dead man be forgotten, then it was forced by hunger and thirst to come forth from its abode in Hades to seek on earth the food and water which no longer filtered through to satisfy its wants, and, roaming up and down, it sought what it might devour." That last bit should sound pretty familiar (Job 2:2, 1 Peter 5:8).

Now this Leviathan is known in Ugarit as Lotan (note that it is a 7 headed lion-dragon with head wounds), and in Akkadian as Mushussu. It is the creature of the abyss. The abyss both reaches the Cythonic realm of the dead as well as the heaven above the firmament. So he still has access to the lower heavens from which he can fall.

Another thing which "proves" that Lucifer's fall occurred before man (Adam) was placed in the garden on earth is the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". There could not have been any "knowledge of evil" had it not been committed and it's almost certain that evil was performed in heaven by Satan (Lucifer) before man was even created.Knowledge of something can't really exist unless it actually happened. And the Babylonian spirit is one of Satan's many influences on man in this world.

Yekcidmij said:

Isaiah 14 isn't a systematic theology about the fall of Satan; it's a prophecy against the king of Babylon.

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It is both. And maybe more besides.

Dave-W said:

It is both. And maybe more besides.

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Why think that? If the passage is about the fall of the king of Babylon, why posit some other meaning in addition to the author's intended meaning?

Yekcidmij said:

Why think that? If the passage is about the fall of the king of Babylon, why posit some other meaning in addition to the author's intended meaning?

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"author's intended meaning"
Hebrew is NOT a linear language like Indo-european languages. (including Greek and English)

Hebrew text - and especially Hebrew poetic text (which almost all of the prophetic books are) has many levels of meaning - and all are true. Hebrew has that in common with all Semitic languages like Arabic, chaldean and Aramaic.

Hebrew has 4 recognized levels of meaning, plus I believe a 5th if you use the original paleo Hebrew alphabet.

Dave-W said:

Hebrew is NOT a linear language like Indo-european languages. (including Greek and English)

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(a) Not sure what this has to do with anything
(b) Not sure what you mean when you say Hebrew is not a linear language like Indo-European languages.

Hebrew text - and especially Hebrew poetic text (which almost all of the prophetic books are) has many levels of meaning - and all are true.

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Is this a justifiable position?

Hebrew has 4 recognized levels of meaning, plus I believe a 5th if you use the original paleo Hebrew alphabet.

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How do you justify this? What do you mean by "recognized?" And why only 4 or 5? Why not 3 or 6....or 10?