The Pastor King (New)

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LoveofTruth

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Without at least one elder they would have been considered to be without shepherding... a situation that would not have been allowed by the Apostles.
Again you are false.

Paul and Titus and other apostolic workers planted church, commended them to the Lord and His word and set the order and taught how to wait on the Lord and function in God's order. Then they left them for a good while, possibly from 6 months to a few years and after a while they went back to those original churches, that had no elders all that time and ordained elders. They with the body would choose out elders (plural) and recognize them in their care and when they met the qualifications. All are taught to know those who labour among you.

But to be mature in the faith takes time and elders are not made immediately. Babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness. So Paul left them with God and His word. We see this in scripture.

"
Titus 1:5 KJV
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest
set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"

Acts 15:36 KJV
36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas,
Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do."


Acts 14:21-23 KJV
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had ordained them elders [plural] in every church [singular], and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."
 
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I am not making a big deal about the robes or saying that the Lord commands a dress code except modesty and simple ways.

But since they (The Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Anglicans) have an outward appearance of false authority over others it must be addressed. It becomes a class status among believers.

It doesn't need to be addressed. Sin needs to be addressed, with fruitful repentance. For over two-thousand years the Orthodox faithful, from the laity to the ordained ministers, have been doing this very thing, even though there are exceptions to be sure. The followers of Christ have remained Alive in the True Faith and knowledge of God throughout that history.
 
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Again you are false.

Paul and Titus and other apostolic workers planted church, commended them to the Lord and His word and set the order and taught how to wait on the Lord and function in God's order. Then they left them for a good while, possibly from 6 months to a few years and after a while they went back to those original churches, that had no elders all that time and ordained elders. They with the body would choose out elders (plural) and recognize them in their care and when they met the qualifications. All are taught to know those who labour among you.

But to be mature in the faith takes time and elders are not made immediately. Babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness. So Paul left them with God and His word. We see this in scripture.

"
Titus 1:5 KJV
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest
set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"

Acts 15:36 KJV
36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas,
Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do."

Acts 14:21-23 KJV
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had ordained them elders [plural] in every church [singular], and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."
Nonsense. If I'm false, then Paul is false too: "The reason I left you in Crete was that you would set in order what was unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you" (Titus 1:5). But neither I nor Paul is false. Communities need to have shepherding... period.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Yet another distortion of the truth, based on your own "tradition of man". Jesus and His disciples worshiped and met in synagogues, which were buildings made for local people to assemble and meet for religious worship and instruction. The early Christians were driven out of the synagogues when it was ruled unlawful for them to worship in them. When it became lawful for Christians to assemble and meet in public houses of worship and instruction, they did so.

Please show us also where it is prohibited in the Bible for the faithful to assemble in public houses of worship (now called churches).
Again you are false and as you speak you reveal more of your misunderstanding.

The early christians were led by the Spirit into homes. First Jesus told the apostles how to plant churches and prepared them for the work they would do. He said,

"11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."(Matthew 10:11-13 KJV)

And Jesus also led them into the house where they were all filled with the Holy Ghost.

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting."(Acts 2:1,2 KJV)

.And they being led by the Spirit still met in homes having favour with all the people.

"...and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."(Acts 2:46,47 KJV)

Here we se that they were not driven into homes because of persecution, but had favour with ALL the people.

Yes the did go into the temple. But this was not for christian meetings, but rather for evangelism in Solomons porch. This was not the house to house order. Also they were all still Jewish in many ways attached to the Old Covenant and the law and the temple. These things did not go easily. But God had warned them in the Old Testament "what house will ye build me?" and that the most high dwelt not in temples made with hands. Jesus even directed them away from the outward temple to Himself as the true temple.

But God warned them again with Stephen,

"47 But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things?51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."(Acts 7:47-51 KJV)

We also see the apostles, led by the Spirit meeting in homes all through the New testament in every place, for the most part. This is an apostolic pattern or tradition we can see clearly in scripture. There was no Temple in Rome or Ephesis or Corinth for the believers to meet in. They met in homes as scripture clearly shows

Here are some clear verses showing the apostolic pattern they followed as led by the Spirit

“and breaking bread from house to house,” ( Acts 2;46)

“ As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. “ (Acts 8:3) Paul knew where to find them.

“ And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house”(Acts 20:20)

“Likewise greet the church that is in their house.” (Romans 16:5)

“...Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house” (1 Corinthians 16:19)

“Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. “ (Colossians 4:15)

“And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house” (Philemon 1:2)

“If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed” (2 John 10 )

“And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed. “ (Acts 16:40)

“And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying” (Acts 12:12)

“But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people” (Acts 17:5)


It is clear that the Spirit led them to do this as a pattern and this is the way Paul and others ordered gatherings as they were following God’s order in the Spirit. We know this because Paul was confident that he was following Christ as a wise masterbuilder and he was led by the Spirit in what he did as were the other apostles who followed Christ in this as well. This leading Paul had included whatever things the believers learned from him, and what he did in word or deed, (Philippians 4:9). This would include setting church order in homes around Christ. If Paul did not plant churches this way, where do we think they got the idea to meet as they did? The question is not do we have to do things the way they did ? The question is why would you want to do anything else?

Objections:

1. Some will object and say, there are no commands in scripture to meet in homes so we can do whatever we want.

Answer. There and not direct commands for many things we do in our gatherings, but we see patterns and scripture for such things. Paul also told believers that he did and taught the same things in every church. Paul even rebuked the Corinthians for thinking they could have their own order contrary to Gods order.
But as far as commands to meet in homes, consider when Jesus sent the apostles out two by two he told them whatever house they come to that is worthy and where their peace remains there to stay there. This would have taught them how to plant churches in the future and use the house as a base. We see the apostles in the New testament doing this exact thing. Paul met Lydia and a home meeting was established there etc. We see also from the many scriptures i posted that this was how the Holy Spirit directed Paul and others to have meetings and where to do them. The home allows for mutual edification which is commanded in 1 Cor 14 by God. If the large structure hinders mutual edification then the form of many assemblies does not allow the church to function freely under Christ headship.

Also Jesus did command the disciples to meet in a house in the upper room and wait for the promised Spirit. This was a command by Jesus and directing them where to meet.

2. Some will object and say, "they met in the temple and house to house" so we can meet in our large temple structures still.

Answer: this is not a right understanding. They did no have church meetings in the temple, they went to Solomons porch for evangelism, and we can use any place for this. But the temple mindset was still lingering in the Jewish believers for a while, they even were going into it and sacrificing in Acts 21. This was all done away and in 70 Ad it was finished. Consider also that there was no temple in Rome or Corinth or Ephesis etc. Believers are now the temple of the Holy Ghost we are one spiritual house build up with living stones, the church is the body of Christ not a man made building. Also the early church met in a family type home and had a meal together. This meal is not easy to achieve in a religious form with hundereds of people.

also, the early homes were of the believers, a family type gathering, with love and closeness. They were all able to follow the commands of the Lord to edify one another and share their gifts ( 1 Cor 12, 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Thess 5;11, Colossians 3;15,16, Ephesians 4:11-16 etc etc etc etc).

To build a large building where all the seats face forward and each look at the back of each others heads to a exalted man at the front and bind up the assembly under forms and ritual and man made traditions, is very wrong. Snd them on top of it all to have a sign on the lawn calling it a church, is equally wrong. The true church and the function of the church gets lost in these places and Jesus may be outside knocking wanting to come into them and sup with them and participate with them. But they are rich in their large structures and worldliness and have need of nothing. They are unaware that they are wretched , miserable, poor blind and naked. They cover with a covering but not of God's Spirit, that they may add shame unto shame.

a lot of the building projects came around the time of Constantine who had these places built all over. Some unweary and carnal men might think this was a good idea. The church became a high tower in the world and seemed to marry the world. But it was not a good thing. The church could not function as it should and according to the command of God.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I asked you to show us where in the Bible it is forbidden for the faithful to wear robes. ... I don't, especially when in other places the people of God are described as being clothed in robes, or even told to wear them: “You shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. “You shall speak to all the skillful persons whom I have endowed with the spirit of wisdom, that they make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister as priest to Me. “These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece and an ephod and a robe and a tunic of checkered work, a turban and a sash, and they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister as priest to Me. “They shall take the gold and the blue and the purple and the scarlet material and the fine linen." (Exodus 28:2-5)
True Christians are not under the law, or the Old Covenant.

That was pat of the problem way back, and possibly part of your problem. They seemed to take from the OT priesthood and altars and sacrifices and try to make the New Testament like that. This could possibly be because of the again influence in Rome and other places that crept in and a misunderstanding of the law and the Old Covenant.

Jesus was also made under the law and the Jews had to keep the law until it was finished and the new Covenant was come. They were "shut up under the law", until the faith should come

This is a long discussion and different than the one we are having.

But any reference to the law and Jesus telling them to do it must be looked at in context. Also in Acts we see the Jews still under the law and struggling with the Old Covenant all through the book, even in Acts 21 we see the thousands of Jews who were believers in jesus still zealous of the law and the customs and going into the temple and being under the priesthood there and the High Priest there and the animal sacrifices etc.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Nonsense. If I'm false, then Paul is false too: "The reason I left you in Crete was that you would set in order what was unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you" (Titus 1:5). But neither I nor Paul is false. Communities need to have shepherding... period.
did you read what I wrote?

they had no elders FIOR A TIME, eventually they would rise up. The clearly rebuked your words when you said

tWhat I wrote clearly corrects you. You need humility and admit when you are wrong

Again you are false. As I said

Paul and Titus and other apostolic workers planted churches, commended them to the Lord and His word and set the order and taught how to wait on the Lord and function in God's order. Then they left them for a good while, possibly from 6 months to a few years and after a while they went back to those original churches, that had no elders all that time and ordained elders. They with the body would choose out elders (plural) and recognize them in their care and when they met the qualifications. All are taught to know those who labour among you.

But to be mature in the faith takes time and elders are not made immediately. Babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness. So Paul left them with God and His word. We see this in scripture.

"
Titus 1:5 KJV
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"

Acts 15:36 KJV
36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do."

Acts 14:21-23 KJV
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had ordained them elders [plural] in every church [singular], and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."
 
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LoveofTruth

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It doesn't need to be addressed. Sin needs to be addressed, with fruitful repentance. For over two-thousand years the Orthodox faithful, from the laity to the ordained ministers, have been doing this very thing, even though there are exceptions to be sure. The followers of Christ have remained Alive in the True Faith and knowledge of God throughout that history.
this word
"laity" or the Greek word "laikos"is not in scripture as i know, the word Laos is. But the whole idea of a so called clergy" and Laity" division is carnal and against scripture.

The word Clergy", as i understand comes from the word "cleros", meaning a lot inheritance (1 Peter 5:3 KJV), and all God's people are His inheritance. The word "Loas", where "laity" comes, means the people. And all believers are God's people (2 Cor 6:16 KJV).

This fall exalted role over men as the Clergy", is unscriptural, and comes rather from the carnal reasonings and dead traditions of man. This desire to have a king over men to rule them comes way back when God's people wanted a king to rule over them

“Give us a King”

There is a story in the bible where God’s people said, “Give us a King, to judge us(1 Samuel 8:6). God allowed it, but told Samuel, “they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me that I should not reign over them” (1 Samuel 8:7). God also told Samuel to warn them that the king would bring them into bondage, take their goods and use them for his glory (1 Samuel 8:11-19).

Saul also had some of the Levites killed (1 Sam. 22:17,18). The Levites being a type of the priesthood of all believers. Similarly, as Saul had them killed and they could no longer minister, so the modern one man Pastor Lord also quenches the spirit in the body and hinders or cuts off the priesthood of all believers where they can no longer minister freely.

Today, similar to the story of Saul, you can almost hear the people cry, “Give us a Pastor, like all the other churches”, especially when they are looking for a new one. But by doing so, they may be rejecting God from reigning over them in the gatherings.

some interesting consideration
 
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LoveofTruth

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No, They knew nothing of Eastern Orthodox teaching and were merely rebelling because of things that came about due to Roman innovations. There has never been a protestant reformation in the Orthodox Church.

"The Lutherans were convinced that they, rather than Rome, were the true apostolic and catholic church, and thus to establish contact with the venerable Greek church, to enlist its support against the papacy, and perhaps even to enter into communion with this apostolic church would have been a sensational victory. Thus in 1575 they sent the Augustana Graeca to Patriarch Jeremias II (d. 1595), asking his opinion. There ensued over the next six years a friendly but candid exchange of extensive doctrinal correspondence (three letters from both sides totaling over four hundred printed pages). Prominent topics discussed included the authority of scripture and tradition; the filioque; the nature of the church; grace, free will, and synergism; justification, faith, and good works; eucharistic practices; the priesthood and the ministry; prayers for the departed; the invocation of saints; feasts and fasting; and monasticism. Except for those doctrines and customs of the Roman church that the East had never accepted, the changes in church teaching and polity advocated by the Lutherans were rejected by the Orthodox, who thus implicitly agreed on most issues with the Catholics."(What did the reformers think about the Eastern Orthodox Church?)

Using physical matter in the forms of rituals and symbolic, bodily expressions of the Faith is not idolatry.

So now the bread and wine are only "symbolic" as I have been saying all along and many other christians have said all throughout the centuries and been burned for saying so?

but to worship bread as if it is God in the flesh is idolatry.

. Your teachings about the inappropriateness of physical rituals and other physical expressions of the Faith (i.e. your iconoclasm) set up a religion that opposes spirit and matter, and you cite Christ as the teacher of this dualism of spirit against matter (John 6:63)

No it doesn't and you don't understand my teaching from scripture in this matter.

and I simply quote Jesus and you say that He was wrong in what he said. Its your interpretation that is wrong and you cannot build a straw man here and try to tear it down.

.
Please show us


I find this strange how you say "show US". I am speaking to you specifically in this discussion with you, not anyone else in particular. I address your error and understanding. You may try to use the "US" against "me" argument and think that you have so many on your side in argument. But I stand with God and Holy scripture and all the saints who have walked with God of all time in what i say.

and as we know the majority often is wrong and attacks the few. We see this all over scripture.


Please show us in the Bible where it is forbidden for the faithful to use the material created by God as a way to worship (Commune with) Him.

"19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."( John 4:20-24 KJV)

"
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. ... 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."(Romans 1:22-23,25 KJV)
(does the bread corrupt if you left it in the wilderness for a few months? if so then it is not Jesus . God will not suffer His holy one to see corruption)

Acts 17:24
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

But does your God dwell in bread made with hands? Does your God become the bread made with human hands, after a few special words? Does your God allow Himself to be worshipped through "icons" and mans art and device of their hands? Or through statues and relics?

John 6:63
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

2 Kings 18:4 KJV
"4 He removed the high places, and
brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan."
 
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Nonesense, you are false and Paul the apostle is true
You're being silly. It's obvious that Paul required the "ordination" of elders to oversee the affairs of a community of believers. That is why he said it in the letter to Titus. Sure, there were communities lacking ordained leaders, which is why Paul had told Titus to do the work of ordination as this was not a good situation for communities of believers. This, by the way, was performed as a physical ritual using the hands of previously ordained leaders to convey the grace of the Holy Spirit upon the ones being ordained.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Please show us also where it is prohibited in the Bible for the faithful to assemble in public houses of worship (now called churches).
Public houses, you mean large castle like structures, basilicas which are so far removed from a functioning family home that it should be obvious,

But your chief error here is to call a building of man, ( any building of man made with slime and mortar, or brick and wood etc) unbiblically called "churches".

the church is not a man made building. The :church" has never been or ever will be a man made building of brick and mortar or wood etc. We read of the "church" which meets in their house. This should be enough. But just in case it's not here is more

I marvel at how such a simple truth you miss and expose your confusion.

The church is

Ephesians 1:22,23
"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to
the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

Colossians 1:24
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:"

1 Timothy 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Hebrews 3:6
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

1 Peter 2:5
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."


 
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LoveofTruth

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If you have no falsehood, why do you present the belief of the Orthodox faithful regarding the Eucharist falsely?
I did not I simply asked you questions.

I can ask you again. Is the bread and wine the real presence of Jesus Christ .? Does the bread literally transubstantiate into God? yes or no

you cannot try to escape this way

do you agree with this statement by another?

"4. The Eucharist? We call that Jesus. We believe it is actually the body and blood of Christ in the form of bread and wine, but we do not believe in transubstantiation. That is a Catholic thing."
 
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LoveofTruth

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You're being silly. It's obvious that Paul required the "ordination" of elders to oversee the affairs of a community of believers. That is why he said it in the letter to Titus. Sure, there were communities lacking ordained leaders, which is why Paul had told Titus to do the work of ordination as this was not a good situation for communities of believers. This, by the way, was performed as a physical ritual using the hands of previously ordained leaders to convey the grace of the Holy Spirit upon the ones being ordained.
No, you misunderstand what elders are, and what they can and cannot do, and what authority all believers have.

Elders are more skillful in the word of righteousness than babes, they have care for others to feed them and labour in word and doctrine. They are mature through experience. The never lord over others or take filthy lucre from them. They do not have dominion over others, the word "dominion" there means rule over or supreme authority, as a controller, or master in title, a lord"

An elder cannot exalt himself over others as many do. The cannot Lord over or control others or rule over others as the gentile rule. The use the word of God as having the rule. They walk in the spirit in Christ and their rule is in the new creation under Christ who has all power , rule and authority. In Him they speak and live and as all believers do. They are all to submit to one another when the rule and word of life is spoken and lived. But elders are more mature in this and helpful to others in the body, and so very valuable and esteemed in this care for the body.

They are not to set themselves up as some exalted kings in long robes on an altar where all must look to them alone for all ministry. They do not take titles of mans authority over others. But in the functions and its they minister.

There is much that can be said about true and false elders in scripture. I addressed some of this already.

"Paul said to the church, “Not that we have dominion over your faith but are helpers ..” (2 Cor. 1:24). The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller. By implication, Master (as in official title..)...” (Strongs Concordance. # 2961). Jesus also warned of such a false dominion and authority over others (Matthew 20:25-27), and said “it shall not be so among you”.

Yet in many gatherings today, this person called “The Pastor”, is exalted above all others as he stands on top a large platform behind a “pulpit”. He is the one who dominates and has preeminence over all others and does most of the speaking week after week. He generally rules in a large castle-like structure unbiblically called “the church” with lower ranked servants under him. Sometimes he has a sign outside with his name on it. Many flattering titles are given to him such as, “Reverend”, “Master of Divinity”, or “President”, and he uses expressions such as “My church” or “My people”. Scripture warns against one man in and exalted role having the preeminance over all in the church (3 John 9,10, 2 Cor 11:12,13,20, Acts 20:29-31, Col 2:8, Job 32:31,32) and Jesus said “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ” (Matt. 23:8,10).
 
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this word
"laity" or the Greek word "laikos"is not in scripture as i know, the word Laos is. But the whole idea of a so called clergy" and Laity" division is carnal and against scripture.

The word Clergy", as i understand comes from the word "cleros", meaning a lot inheritance (1 Peter 5:3 KJV), and all God's people are His inheritance. The word "Loas", where "laity" comes, means the people. And all believers are God's people (2 Cor 6:16 KJV).

This fall exalted role over men as the Clergy", is unscriptural, and comes rather from the carnal reasonings and dead traditions of man. This desire to have a king over men to rule them comes way back when God's people wanted a king to rule over them

“Give us a King”

There is a story in the bible where God’s people said, “Give us a King, to judge us(1 Samuel 8:6). God allowed it, but told Samuel, “they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me that I should not reign over them” (1 Samuel 8:7). God also told Samuel to warn them that the king would bring them into bondage, take their goods and use them for his glory (1 Samuel 8:11-19).

Saul also had some of the Levites killed (1 Sam. 22:17,18). The Levites being a type of the priesthood of all believers. Similarly, as Saul had them killed and they could no longer minister, so the modern one man Pastor Lord also quenches the spirit in the body and hinders or cuts off the priesthood of all believers where they can no longer minister freely.

Today, similar to the story of Saul, you can almost hear the people cry, “Give us a Pastor, like all the other churches”, especially when they are looking for a new one. But by doing so, they may be rejecting God from reigning over them in the gatherings.

some interesting consideration
We have a King: Christ our God. He built His Church which is hierarchical and conciliar at the same time, as per the Ways laid down by His Holy Apostles. Everything we have determined to be the Truth and proper is because "It seemed good to us, and to the Holy Spirit". The gates of death haven't prevailed against His Church.

We don't ever scream "Give us a King", or "Give us a Pastor". If we scream at all, it is in the silence of our hearts where we scream "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner". He is our only Savior and our only King.

You are slandering the True Faith because you don't know it.
 
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LoveofTruth

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If you have no falsehood, why do you present the belief of the Orthodox faithful regarding the Eucharist falsely?
Do you agree with this

"Fourthly, attention must be paid that the priest have, at the time of consecration, the intention that the real substance of the bread and the substance of wine be transubstantiated into the real body and blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Spirit.

He makes this invocation when he confects this mystery by praying and saying: “Send your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered and make this bread the precious body of your Christ, and that which is in this chalice the precious blood of your Christ, changing them by your Holy Spirit.”

Transubstantiation occurs immediately with these words, and the bread is transubstantiated into the real body of Christ and the wine into the real blood of Christ, with the visible appearances alone remaining.

Orthodox Confession of Faith, Peter Mogila, Metropolitan of Kiev (1633-1647)

and this

"He is not present typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, as in the other Mysteries, nor by a bare presence, as some of the Fathers have said concerning Baptism, or by impanation, so that the Divinity of the Word is united to the set forth bread of the Eucharist hypostatically, as the followers of Luther most ignorantly and wretchedly suppose.

But truly and really, so that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true Body itself of the Lord, Which was born in Bethlehem of the ever-Virgin, was baptized in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose again, was received up, sits at the right hand of the God and Father, and is to come again in the clouds of Heaven; and the wine is converted and
transubstantiated into the true Blood itself of the Lord, Which as He hung upon the Cross, was poured out for the life of the world.

Orthodox Confession of Dositheus, Patriarch of Jerusalem (1672)"

I disagree with both these statements according to scripture
 
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I did not I simply asked you questions.

I can ask you again. Is the bread and wine the real presence of Jesus Christ .? Does the bread literally transubstantiate into God? yes or no

you cannot try to escape this way

do you agree with this statement by another?

"4. The Eucharist? We call that Jesus. We believe it is actually the body and blood of Christ in the form of bread and wine, but we do not believe in transubstantiation. That is a Catholic thing."
The Church does not teach that the bread and wine that is eaten and drunken ever ceases to be bread and wine. Your earlier post indicates that we believe it is no longer bread and wine. The bread and wine remain bread and wine, the bread is the body of Christ and the wine is the blood of Christ because He says that it is and His Apostles affirmed the Truth of His saying. We approach it as a great Mystery and make no attempt to define it:

"Jesus called a little child to stand among them. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matthew 18:2-8)

Two very important things concerning this lesson in Scripture:
1) As a child who must simply trust their caregivers, and who cannot engage in the adult manner of rational abstraction, they simply take what they hear on innocent faith.
2) Ignatius of Antioch (the bishop who whose letter was quoted earlier as evidence of the early Church belief in the real presence) was the child whom Jesus had called to stand among them.

Those who teach that Christ is not present in the Eucharist teach a lie to the little ones who believe in Christ so as to cause them to stumble. It would be better for such teachers to have a large millstone hung around their necks and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
 
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LoveofTruth

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We have a King: Christ our God. He built His Church which is hierarchical and conciliar at the same time, as per the Ways laid down by His Holy Apostles. Everything we have determined to be the Truth and proper is because "It seemed good to us, and to the Holy Spirit". The gates of death haven't prevailed against His Church.

We don't ever scream "Give us a King", or "Give us a Pastor". If we scream at all, it is in the silence of our hearts where we scream "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner". He is our only Savior and our only King.

You are slandering the True Faith because you don't know it.
again, you just ignored most of my points and went off on a rant and still try to support the false division of Clergy/laity so called
 
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LoveofTruth

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The Church does not teach that the bread and wine that is eaten and drunken ever ceases to be bread and wine. Your earlier post indicates that we believe it is no longer bread and wine.
do you agree with this?

"The Orthodox Church denies the doctrine that the Body and the Blood of the eucharist are merely intellectual or psychological symbols of Christ’s Body and Blood. If this doctrine were true, when the liturgy is celebrated and holy communion is given, the people would be called merely to think about Jesus and to commune with him “in their hearts.” In this way, the eucharist would be reduced to a simple memorial meal of the Lord’s last supper, and the union with God through its reception would come only on the level of thought or psychological recollection.

On the other hand, however, the Orthodox tradition does use the term “symbols” for the eucharistic gifts. It calls, the service a “mystery” and the sacrifice of the liturgy a “spiritual and bloodless sacrifice.” These terms are used by the holy fathers and the liturgy itself.

The Orthodox Church uses such expressions because in Orthodoxy what is real is not opposed to what is symbolical or mystical or spiritual. On the contrary! In the Orthodox view, all of reality—the world and man himself—is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus,
the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God’s true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself “the bread of life” (Jn 6.34, 41).

I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6.51).

Thus,
the bread of the eucharist is Christ’s flesh, and Christ’s flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. The word “symbolical” in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: “to bring together into one.”"(The Orthodox Faith - Volume II - Worship - The Sacraments - Holy Eucharist)
 
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