Abomination of Desolation - A Future Idol in Jerusalem

BABerean2 said:

Jesus is tell both of us and everyone on the planet that nobody can enter the kingdom of God without being born again of the Spirit of God.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

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I am not disputing that everyone must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of God, including the Jews of Old Testament. That is not the point I was making.

I am asking if you are saying that you do not believe anyone was ever saved BEFORE the Cross, or BEFORE the working of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? You believe that all old testament Saints, Abel, Moses, David, Noah, and many many others who are not mentioned in the Bible BEFORE THE CROSS must be "reborn" in the Spirit?

John 3:3

• "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Being born again from above is just another way of saying "Spiritual Rebirth," which is just another way of saying, "being saved." So if Jewish saints were "not born again" before the cross, then there were no saved people before the cross. And that philosophy is foreign to God's word. For the ONLY way to be saved, is to be born from above by the Spirit of Christ. The power of which is Christ's efficacious work on the cross. So to declare anyone was saved any other way than by the risen body of Christ, is contradicting scripture. The faith of Christ, powered by the work of Christ, didn't ONLY come into existence post cross. All Old Testament saints had it, and through it righteousness was imputed unto them. ...Christ is the author and finisher of man's faith.

Acts 4:12

• "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

So, if any remnant of old and new testament were saved (and they were), they must have been saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. Selah!

I think any idea that Abraham, Jacob, King David, etc., having the Spirit of Christ unto salvation without being made a new creation in Christ's rebirth, is what should raise certain issues. Not that they were. Because we're either the same man, or through faith of Christ the new man. All these Old Testament saints were made new by the redeeming work of Christ. The Prophet Job said it about ascleary as it can get.

Job 19:25

• "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:"

The real substance of Job's comfort lies in the faith of Christ that revealed the fact to him of the knowledge that "His Redeemer lives!" Job knows this because of the Spirit of Christ that testified it to him, just like the passages I quoted before CLEARLY stating the Spirit of Christ being within those Old Covenant saints. God created in the saints a new heart to do His will, through Christ. The Jews Elect weren't inherently righteous anymore than you or I. On the contrary, Christ in them worked to will and to do. They cast off the old man, and put on the new. Even as God encouraged Israel to create a new heart and live. How? They could only do this through Faith of Christ, and that is why most died in unbelief. Ezekiel wrote:

Ezekiel 18:30-32

• "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
• Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
• For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye[/i]."

They could only cast away their transgressions, put on the new heart, put on the new spirit, and live, through Christ! This is but the working of the Holy Spirit in the old testament saints! Selah! God is encouraging a new nativity wherein their heart of stone becomes a new heart born of the Spirit to receive God's word. This is how they are born again through faith in Christ Jesus, using with the physical temples, sacrifice, water/oil for anoiniting, priest ministries, etc. which was used as symbols, types, portraits, shadows and other various representations of some aspect of what Christ would do for them. That is why the "living water" (Holy Spirit) was not strictly applied only to the New Testament Saints (hinder sea), but also to Old Testament Saints (former sea), Zechariah 14:8-9.

TribulationSigns said:

I am asking if you are saying that you do not believe anyone was ever saved BEFORE the Cross, or BEFORE the working of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? You believe that all old testament Saints, Abel, Moses, David, Noah, and many many others who are not mentioned in the Bible BEFORE THE CROSS must be "reborn" in the Spirit?

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Since Simeon had the Spirit with him in Luke 2:25-26, when he saw the baby Jesus, it would seem that the Old Testament Saints did have some form of the Spirit.

Therefore, it would be my understanding that Simeon had already been "born again" of the Spirit.

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BABerean2 said:

Since Simeon had the Spirit with him in Luke 2:25-26, when he saw the baby Jesus, it would seem that the Old Testament Saints did have some form of the Spirit.

Therefore, it would be my understanding that Simeon had already been "born again" of the Spirit.

.

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So were Abel, David, Noah, Moses, and all the old testament Jewish Elect had been born again of the Spirit, as well!

TribulationSigns said:

So were Abel, David, Noah, Moses, and all the old testament Jewish Elect had been born again of the Spirit, as well!

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1Sa 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

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Davy said:

Not accurate.

You cannot use the Matt.24 and Mark 13 version of Christ's Olivet Discourse to change the meaning of the Luke 21 version, because it's not the same info in places. The Luke 21:20-24 verses is an example of different, or new info.

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

Luke 21:20-21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
KJV

Obviously the subject Jesus gave in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 version is different than that in Luke 21:20. It's like a test to see if we are paying attention or not, because to automatically assume... that "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" is the "abomination of desolation" mentioned in the other two Books is to error greatly. It's like forgetting to even read the Luke 21:20 verse as actually written!

The "desolation" event in Luke 21:20 is not the "abomination of desolation" event. The Luke 21:20 event is when the armies out of the northern quarters come upon Jerusalem for the tribulation timing, with the Gentiles treading the city for 42 months per Rev.11:1-2. The desolation is about the destruction of those armies with Christ's coming.

That's why in the next Luke 21 verse it says this:

Luke 21:22
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

That means all things written for this present world time. That "days of vengeance" is about God's "day of vengeance" mentioned in Isaiah 61:2 which is about Christ's 2nd coming. In Luke 4, at the start of Christ's Ministry, He read all of Isaiah 61:1 and part of the 2nd Isaiah 61 verse, but then stopped before reading that last phrase about God's "day of vengeance" and He closed the Book, and said what He read was on that day fulfilled. The latter part of Isaiah 61:2 He did not read is for His 2nd coming. That's the event here He was referring to.

So this Luke 21:20 "desolation" is not the "abomination of desolation" event, and but it is close to the same timing as the "abomination of desolation" being setup. The armies surrounding Jerusalem coincides with the Antichrist and his armies having control of Jerusalem during the tribulation timing.

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So the venerable principle of letting Scripture interpret Scripture is delegitimized.

Can you cite any historical scholars before the 19th century who support your view?

Davy said:

So we're going to strictly rely on commentaries now for interpretation of The Word of God? What was it you just said about letting Scripture interpret Scripture???

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What we're going to do is consult the wisdom of other past defenders of the true faith, who did compare Scripture with Scripture, to determine if we're consistent with the body of historical orthodox doctrine of the true Church.

If they are of an interpretive consensus, and our interpretation is at significant variance with that consensus, we need to ask why.

You will in fact find that your interpretation is at variance with the historical consensus.

You need to ask why.

Davy said:

Maybe that's what you want to do here, but that I will not partake, because one can find all sorts of commentaries which serve opinion, you just won't find many like E.W. Bullinger's who recognized the Luke 21 version having some differences. But I didn't get what I wrote from him anyway, and he held to a pre-trib rapture which I do not. So trying to prove the existence of a commentary that fits your interpretation still does not mean it makes your interpretation correct. What makes it most correct is like you say, allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. And that I did, showing the differences with the Luke 21 version of "desolation" compared to Matt.24 and Mark 13, and especially with God's "day of vengeance" from Isaiah 61 where Jesus was pointing to.

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Bullinger refers to Matthew 24 a number of times in his Luke 21 commentary. He also refers to Josephus. He does not futurize any of the passage until verse 25.

His views bear considerably more resemblance to the historical consensus than to your own.

Davy said:

That 1 Thess.5 "Peace and safety" certainly is NOT about Christ's Salvation! One couldn't get any farther from the truth by what you said.

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Read Christ's lips, "Yes." I quoted the verses in my previous posts but you did not receive it.

Those who will be saying that "Peace and safety" are the deceived and wicked, NOT those in Christ Jesus! That's why Paul then said the "sudden destruction" will come upon "them", and not believers on Christ!

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Where did you get the idea that the sudden destruction will come upon Christ's believers? Obviously, you did not read my previous carefully.

That's why Paul said this:

1 Thess 5:4-5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
KJV

Those who will travail as a woman are the wicked, those of the night, of darkness.

And you have the audacity to compare those wicked to those in Christ Jesus?!!*#?

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Listen. The "peace and safety" is Salvation of the Lord for His People per verses I quoted previously if you ever bother to read carefully. Those are with His elect. But there are enemies in the congrgation called, guess what? "Professed Christians" and "False prophets and christs." Ever heard of them or are you busy looking for antichrist of peace?

The whole point is that these deceived professed Christians will say or sing about the Salvation in their congregation despite abominations brought by false prophets and christs set up in their congregations. Think about Joel Osteen and his ministry, for example. Joel Osteen may appear to many as loving and Godly man but his gospel is of the devil. So the sudden destruction is spiritual in nature. For example, when the false prophets and christs take a spoil and to take a prey upon truthful testimony and Gospel by downplaying it and replace it with their own false gospel and doctrines (Ezekiel 38:11-13) like feeling good gospel, prosperity gospel, "who do you judge" gospel, tolerate homosexuality, Dispensationalism, etc. FOR THIS CAUSE, God has brought the false prophets and christs, aka Gog and Magog, into His Mountain (congregations all over the world) as a tool of judgment upon unfaithful congregation without His Seal so they will "believe a lie" (2nd Thess 2:8-12) "thinking" they are saved (die in christ) when they are not (death has fled, Revelation 9:6). Saying peace, peace, when there is no peace. Selah!

God was not talking about wicked in the world where they enjoy worldly peace that there will be sudden destruction with nuclear bombs or something like that.

Davy said:

That in red you said; that's Crazy!

The "Peace and safety" is what the WICKED, those who sleep and are drunken in the night, in darkness, will be saying. That is NOT what those in Christ will be saying!

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Crazy because it is foolishness to you because you do not love the Truth.
I have already explained my position on "peace" WITH Scripture. As for your false claim, I did NOT say that it is those in Christ will be saying, but those who are professed in Christ (unsaved believers), are the ones will be saying! You are having a reading problem, don't you? Hummmppff! Read again!

Obviously, you did not really refute my position with Scripture properly but come back with generalization, innuendo, distraction, emotional, or rhetoric. Sounds like you are in denial so enjoy your "peace!"

Moving on!

TribulationSigns said:

Crazy because it is foolishness to you because you do not love the Truth.
I have already explained my position on "peace" WITH Scripture. As for your false claim, I did NOT say that it is those in Christ will be saying, but those who are professed in Christ (unsaved believers), are the ones will be saying! You are having a reading problem, don't you? Hummmppff! Read again!

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Okay, I understand what you are saying. But I don't think the Jews are going to be saying peace and safety for that reason because they don't embrace Jesus as the messiah. And that the Antichrist is the another - separate from Jesus - someone that God did not send to be their King - that they will embrace as their messiah.

The unsaved believers as you call them, they will be the ones to fall away from Christianity, when the Antichrist person is promoted as the real messiah.

The peace and safety in 1thessalonians5 is not talking about Christians, but Jews and them in the world, who will be convinced that the Antichrist is the real messiah.

The problem for your position is that there is actually a real person coming, who will emerge out of the EU and will become the Antichrist. And there are concrete verses in
Ezekiel 39, that are solid foundation to know exactly when relative to Gog/Magog. Because the Armageddon feast is in Ezekiel 39:17-20. 7 years after the Gog feast in Ezekiel 39:4.

It is not symbolic or metaphoric, it is literal and geographic locations given for where Gog's army will be buried, 7 years prior to Armageddon. And some of the countries in Gog's army are listed by name easily associated with modern countries in Ezekiel 38.

Davy said:

I don't use your historicist tradition of men to understand a prophecy that has yet to occur.

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Without what you characterize as the "historicist tradition of men", which was in a reality a God-inspired movement to reclaim His true Church from spiritual darkness and bondage, there would have been no Reformation, and you and I would not be having this conversation.

The Reformers exercised prophetic wisdom and discernment to recognize historical prophetic fulfillments and to declare them without compromise, often to the death, in the face of the overwhelming opposition of the time. The spiritual liberties and freedoms that we enjoy today are directly attributable to their faith and sacrifice, armchair scoffers notwithstanding.

This 500th anniversary of the Reformation marks an appropriate time to recognize the need for another, this time prophetic, Reformation, within the true Church, to return it to the prophetic faith of the fathers, and to once again recognize and proclaim Christ and His Church as the sole and exclusive fulfillments of the prophetic word of both Old and New Testaments.

Revelation 19:10
"... the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Davy said:

I'm not caught up in all that Reformation politics, even though my ancestors were French Huguenots that fled persecution by the Catholic Church in France and came to the Americas.

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Reformers burning at the stake weren't thinking much about politics.