A Personal Relationship with Christ: Misconceptions and Problems

Ron Gurley · Jan 10, 2018

Theologically I DISS-agree that:
#3 "You must also memorably experience God's presence through your emotions and senses."

Man's relationship with the TRI-UNE GOD is a SPIRITUAL ONE. "emotions and senses"are elements of his Body/Soul combination...easily fooled, easily influenced by the world, the flesh, and the devil.

WHEN does Man:1. RECEIVE His IMMORTAL Spirit? At conception?

Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives BREATH to the PEOPLE on it (Body/Soul combo)
And SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

Zechariah 12:1
..The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel.
Thus declares the Lord
who stretches out the heavens,
lays the foundation of the earth, and
forms the SPIRIT of man within him,

2.PART with His IMMORTAL Spirit? At the instant of death of Body / Soul combo?

Luke 23:46
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said,
“Father, into Your hands
I commit My SPIRIT.”
Having said this, He breathed His last. (Body / Soul combo died)

Ecclesiastes 12: 1-8 ...Remember God in Your Youth...because the Body / Soul deteriorates until death
7 then the dust (BODY/SOUL combo) will return to the earth as it was (Genesis creation 2:7 ),
and the (Man's) SPIRIT will return to God who gave it.(Genesis creation 1:26)

A Beautiful Promise!

All believers are promised "spirit-bodies" LIKE Jesus the God-Man WITHOUT ANY needs of the "flesh"...(sarx,soma)
without ANY needs of their old deceased Body / Soul combo...their old "dust".

1 Corinthians 15: 42-49 (NASB) ...Jesus' Resurrection promises all believers a "spiritual body"

Philippians 3 : 10, 20 (NIV1984) Jesus: "glorious body"

1 John 3:2

Romans 6:5

Romans 8:11

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead,
they neither marry nor are given in marriage,
but are LIKE angels in heaven. (spirit beings)

Blade · Jan 10, 2018

Not sure how far this will go when you state "No one cares about your unjustified beliefs". Sorry.. just how else do you speak for? I am guessing JUST YOU

And you in 3 statements used a word "MUST" backed up with? As in word of God. And I agree with allot of what you said. It does and ends with 'personal relationship with Christ". Where we work out our own salvation. God has not changed. Wise to look at the outside but we KNOW the Father does not. Its based on the heart. And FRUITS are not always physical things.. just what we can see.

I don't know what you personally believe. This plays a huge part, yet I can see it in your post. In another post, you said, "how can you know". A truth, fruits can show us but its very easy. Christ that only spoke what the Father said.. its faith. Well, Christ cannot lie. If I believe John 3:16.. I am saved. I don't wonder... HE cant lie. And filled with the sweet sweet Holy Spirit? I asked the Father like He said to do. Is He a man that He should lie? If He said it shall He not surely do it?

I KNOW because HE said. And we can get lost in works without faith.. faith without works.. blah blah blah.

Tree of Life · Jan 10, 2018

All in all, the OP sounds like some revivalist hogwarsh to me. But I'll deal with the three proofs one at a time below...

Deadworm said:
(1) It is not enough to say that God speaks to you through the Scriptures. If you must admit that you have never experienced God mystically communicating with you, then you have not satisfied the basic conditions of the Gospel. You must also experience the inner witness of the Spirit that you are indeed God's child

"Mystical" is a word without a meaning, I'm afraid. Where in Scripture does it say that I must have a mystical experience of God communicating with me in order to satisfy the basic conditions of the gospel? What does "mystical experience" even mean?

I agree that, in order to have assurance of salvation, we must experience inner confirmation from the Holy Spirit. But having salvation and having an assurance of salvation are two different things.

(2) It is not enough for you to regularly confess your sins and gratefully embrace God's grace. You must also be able to point to identifiable signs of supernatural power and spiritual transformation and growth. Among other things, this means you have identified and exercised your spiritual gifts and displayed the fruit of the Spirit.

Just because you have and exercise spiritual gifts does not mean you have salvation. Plenty will preach, teach, prophesy, and cast out demons in the name of Jesus and will be told "I never knew you!" (Matthew 7). Nowhere in Scripture does it say that spiritual gifts are an evidence of salvation.
Indeed, those who are saved will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. And this fruit is important in order for us to attain an assurance of salvation. But, again, assurance of salvation and salvation itself are not identical. One can be saved, exhibit spotty evidence of spiritual fruit, and not be assured and yet still be saved.

(3) It is not enough to profess faith in the Gospel and to try to live the Christian life as best you can. You must also memorably experience God's presence through your emotions and senses.

Hogwarsh. Define what it means to "memorably experience God's presence through your emotions and senses." Furthermore, prove from Scripture that such experiences are necessary in order to gain an assurance of salvation.

Ron Gurley · Jan 10, 2018

ASSURANCE:

Colossians 2:2
that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

Hebrews 3:14
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 11:1
[ The Triumphs of Faith ]
Now faith is
the assurance of things hoped for,
the conviction of things not seen.

"Blessed Assurance"
Frances J. Crosby, 1873, Public Domain
Subject: Assurance Scripture: Hebrews 10:22

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

Refrain:
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.

Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

Perfect submission, all is at rest,
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.

Ronald · Jan 10, 2018

Faith is a gift and comes on different levels. There are weak Christians and then those who are on fire, so the workers are few. Think of the time before the printing press - people didn't have bibles and knew a fraction of what we know today. Even with basic knowledge of the gospel, a child can believe. Repentance is turning to God, away from your sinful ways and following Christ. It is a willingness, a want, a need to receive the gift. Pastors are hard on their congregations sometimes, pointing out sin, expecting everyone to be involved in ministries of some kind, or what ... you aren't a Christian? I attended a Four Square church for a dozen years and it seemed legalistic at times. But many just believe on a basic level. Some are not as enthusiastic as others and don't get involved in ministries or activities, but that doesn't mean they aren't Christians. I have a testimony and can tell you when and where and the events and people that God orchestrated to draw me in and save me but some are just brought up in the church and don't remember any particular moment, they just believe it as its always been part of their lives. I know this, when I wasn't a Christian, I had no interest in hearing about Christ, going to church and cut people off short who approached me with a tract and a message.
If people are getting up in the morning and going to church and praying for years, why would they bother if they weren't interested, turning to God and believing? Maybe they are not spiritually mature, but they want to know Christ. Some of us point the finger at them and say, "They are just going through the motions, the light is not on ..." I know I wouldn't
go prior to my calling, then I did.
That said, there are tares within but I do believe we have 2.3 billion believers and growing in the Body of Christ ( weak and strong people, but God's getting His plan implimented perfectly on schedule) and that is about 1/3 of the planet - which is the remnant that will be saved in the end times (which is now at the door)

Smylie · Jan 10, 2018

John 20:29
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed."

Monksailor · Jan 10, 2018

Deadworm, You say, "Now I prefer to let God be the Judge of what His minimal requirements for salvation are and who has adequately met them."

Then you say, "But it id (is?) not enough to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord (citing e. g. Romans 10:9-10); no one is a true Christian without experiencing regeneration through the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, 5; Romans 8:9)."

Interesting. You presume to be God, the judge, immediately after you prefer NOT to so be.

I was wondering if the reason that you cited "megachurches" as having the problem with 1/3 of their regular attendees as not being saved and sub-sequentially produced absolutely NO reason why the allusion exclusively to "megachurches" as having this problem was made. Is that because churches like you Pastored, non-megachurches, were also claiming similar percentages, but trying to "save face" for your favored churches you chose to make "megachurches" a scapegoat?

Please pardon what appears to be pettiness but I assure it is not. You did a very shabby job in trying to establish that there is no "expression" of a personal relationship with Christ in God's Holy Word. Coming from a person of such credentials as yours that is usually a BIG red flag warranting a stop and deep examination.

Deadworm · Jan 10, 2018

So far, posters have in my view made at least 6 basic errors in their posting about the Holy Spirit and what it means to enjoy a personal relationship with Christ:

(1) a failure to recognize the significance of texts like Rom 8:9 in the biased selection of salvation prooftexts:
8:9 teaches that if you lack the Spirit, you are not a child of God. This means that no matter how many belief-based biblical texts you claim as grounds for salvation, you are deluded about your salvation, if you lack the Spirit. Faith is not enough "Even the devils believe and tremble (James 2:19)."

(2) a failure to recognize the Spirit's sovereignty in the believer's experience of Him:
Reception of the Holy Spirit is not automatic upon profession of faith and cannot be divorced from our experience. Jesus compares the impartation of the Spirit to our experience of the wind: the coming and going of the wind is unpredictable, but its arrival is experiential, not just a belief, because we feel its force and hear its sound (John 3:8). The Spirit can be "grieved (Eph. 4:30) " and "extinguished (1 Thess. 5:19)," so that it is no longer present. The Holy Spirit does not jump just because we crack our whip. I shudder to contemplate how many people falsely infer from mere belief that they are true Christians.

(3) a failure to grasp the meaning of biblical metaphors that imply the need for experiential or sensory confirmation of the Spirit's presence:
Jesus promise to "dine" with believers who invite Him in is obviously a metaphor for an experience of intimate nurturing fellowship with Christ's Spirit (Rev. 3:20; 1 Peter 2:3). Jesus' sensory metaphor of drinking in the Spirit also presumes sensory experience and not merely a doctrine. (See my elaboration of this point in (4) below.)

(4) a failure to distinguish larger context from the more relevant immediate context:
One poster dismisses my allusion to drinking in the Spirit in 1 Cor 12:13 on the grounds that the larger context deals with spiritual gifts. His objection can be refuted on 2 grounds:
(a) What is relevant is the immediate context, not the larger context, and the immediate context deals with spiritual baptism into the Body of Christ, an act that makes us a Christian. So its metaphor of drinking in the Spirit is dealing with the Spirit's role in our salvation, not His role in inspiring spiritual gifts.

(b) More importantly, the poster ignores my supportive text (John 7:37-39, which has nothing to do with spiritual gifts. Here Jesus' drinking metaphor implies an experience of the Spirit in 2 ways: (a) the believers' spiritual thirst is quenched by the Spirit's arrival. (b) The Spirit's presence is confirmed by an inner upwelling of living water, a beautiful metaphor that implies a refreshing experience of the Spirit's flow.

(5) a failure to grasp the significance of holy emotions--love, joy, peace-- that are fruit of the Spirit, not the result of human striving:
Paul repeatedly makes it clear that these emotions are richer than their equivalent ordinary emotions (1 Peter 1:7; Phil. 4:7). It may take a long time to grow enough to experience these emotions. But the point is that one's claim to have the Holy Spirit is seriously called into question if these holy emotions, fruit of the Spirit, are not experienced.

(6) a failure to grasp the significance of the questions Paul poses to congregations about the Spirit:
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (Acts 19:2)?" What posters have overlooked is that Paul has not founded the church at Ephesus and does not know these people. So he is on a fact-finding mission. His question addresses the initial work of the Spirit, not a 2nd work after they have received the Spirit at their conversion. So Paul is asking whether the Ephesians have experienced the initial redemptive work of the Spirit, not whether they have spoken in tongues or prophesied.
In their focus on what I say about Acts 19:2, posters have ducked my reference to Paul's question to Corinthian believers in 2 Corinthians 13:5: "Test yourselves. Do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!" Paul uses the "Spirit of Christ" interchangeably with "the Holy Spirit." So he is asking them to introspect to determine whether they experience Christ's living Spirit within.

(5) a failure to consider Paul's teaching about the inner witness of the Spirit (Rom 8:16;
When we get saved, we experience the Spirit in many ways, including in an inner witness that reassures and provides conviction: e. g.
"...It is that very Spirit that bears witness with our Spirit that we are God's children (Romans 8:16)."
"God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father! (Gal. 4;6)!"
"Our message of the Gospel came to you not simply in words, but...in the Holy Spirit with full conviction (1 Thess. 1:5)."

A true Christian develops a personal relationship with Christ and this relationship takes the form of experiencing Christ's Holy Spirit in the various ways I have discussed and will continue to discuss on this thread. Stay tuned for the best evidence of all for my case that possession of the Holy Spirit involves experience and not just doctrine accepted by faith.

s

Wordkeeper · Jan 10, 2018

Monksailor said:
Deadworm, You say, "Now I prefer to let God be the Judge of what His minimal requirements for salvation are and who has adequately met them."

Then you say, "But it id (is?) not enough to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord (citing e. g. Romans 10:9-10); no one is a true Christian without experiencing regeneration through the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, 5; Romans 8:9)."

Interesting. You presume to be God, the judge, immediately after you prefer NOT to so be.

I was wondering if the reason that you cited "megachurches" as having the problem with 1/3 of their regular attendees as not being saved and sub-sequentially produced absolutely NO reason why the allusion exclusively to "megachurches" as having this problem was made. Is that because churches like you Pastored, non-megachurches, were also claiming similar percentages, but trying to "save face" for your favored churches you chose to make "megachurches" a scapegoat?

Please pardon what appears to be pettiness but I assure it is not. You did a very shabby job in trying to establish that there is no "expression" of a personal relationship with Christ in God's Holy Word. Coming from a person of such credentials as yours that is usually a BIG red flag warranting a stop and deep examination.

You're assuming that great learning, either from acquiring many credentials or from many years in the practicising a world view, leads to great wisdom. The problem is that becoming an expert in a particular doctrine is useless if the doctrine is not correct. For example, Scientology has colleges where you can acquire doctorates in the subject matter, but it only means you can explain it well, not prove it to be true.

People with great knowledge of a false doctrine either through deep study or long practice begin to develop a dissatisfaction with it when the realization begins to rise about its credibility, which is quite natural.

It was quite enlightening for me to read the article, the uneasy conscience of a non charismatic, by Dan Wallace, available on the internet, where he describes how dry study failed men like Jack Deere and other scholars with multiple credentials, leading them to feel the need to look for experiential evidence of Christianity. Credentials didn't help them.

Similarly, believers with extensive experience of practicising the faith, even as far back as John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila, went through difficult phases they called their dark nights of the soul, and turned to practices very similar to those used by Eastern mystics to overcome those phases.

The answer to this dissatisfaction is not to turn to acquiring said sensory experiences, but to asking for bread, revelation from God, the Holy Spirit, a good thing our heavenly Father will not deny us, just as our earthly fathers never denied us things that were good for us.

The revelation I received was the teaching that transformation is through enlightenment.

The sages, even though from Eastern human pool, noted that we obey out of fear of punishment when we were children, out of choice when we were adults, and out of understanding when we became enlightened.

The Holy Spirit enlightens. We understand the human condition, our anthropology, the reason we do things we do not want to do, and we understand how we can do the things we want to do. It's a cognitive process. It's not coincidence that Christ is called the Word.

Monksailor · Jan 10, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
You're assuming that great learning, either from acquiring many credentials or from many years in the practicising a world view, leads to great wisdom. The problem is that becoming an expert in a particular doctrine is useless if the doctrine is not correct. For example, Scientology has colleges where you can acquire doctorates in the subject matter, but it only means you can explain it well, not prove it to be true.

People with great knowledge of a false doctrine either through deep study or long practice begin to develop a dissatisfaction with it when the realization begins to rise about its credibility, which is quite natural.

It was quite enlightening for me to read the article, the uneasy conscience of a non charismatic, by Dan Wallace, available on the internet, where he describes how dry study failed men like Jack Deere and other scholars with multiple credentials, leading them to feel the need to look for experiential evidence of Christianity. Credentials didn't help them.

Similarly, believers with extensive experience of practicising the faith, even as far back as John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila, went through difficult phases they called their dark nights of the soul, and turned to practices very similar to those used by Eastern mystics to overcome those phases.

The answer to this dissatisfaction is not to turn to acquiring said sensory experiences, but to asking for bread, revelation from God, the Holy Spirit, a good thing our heavenly Father will not deny us, just as our earthly fathers never denied us things that were good for us.

The revelation I received was the teaching that transformation is through enlightenment.

The sages, even though from Eastern human pool, noted that we obey out of fear of punishment when we were children, out of choice when we were adults, and out of understanding when we became enlightened.

The Holy Spirit enlightens. We understand the human condition, our anthropology, the reason we do things we do not want to do, and we understand how we can do the things we want to do. It's a cognitive process. It's not coincidence that Christ is called the Word.

I spoke in honor of the man's professions. Both were professions of service to mankind and both of which required much education but yielded relative meager wages. There is great honor for committing on'e life to such work.

As far as all of your mystical and eastern stuff and simple cognitive talk, do NOT include me in your we. NEVER< NEVER< NEVER!!! You make no sense and presume very incorrect things.

Wordkeeper · Jan 10, 2018

Deadworm said:
So far, posters have in my view made at least 6 basic errors in their posting about the Holy Spirit and what it means to enjoy a personal relationship with Christ:

(1) a failure to recognize the significance of texts like Rom 8:9 in the biased selection of salvation prooftexts:
8:9 teaches that if you lack the Spirit, you are not a child of God. This means that no matter how many belief-based biblical texts you claim as grounds for salvation, you are deluded about your salvation, if you lack the Spirit. Faith is not enough "Even the devils believe and tremble (James 2:19)."

Wrong context. The failing is lack of works, not evidence of the Spirits quickening.

(2) a failure to recognize the Spirit's sovereignty in the believer's experience of Him:
Reception of the Holy Spirit is not automatic upon profession of faith and cannot be divorced from our experience. Jesus compares the impartation of the Spirit to our experience of the wind: the coming and going of the wind is unpredictable, but its arrival is experiential, not just a belief, because we feel its force and hear its sound (John 3:8). The Spirit can be "grieved (Eph. 4:30) " and "extinguished (1 Thess. 5:19)," so that it is no longer present. The Holy Spirit does not jump just because we crack our whip. I shudder to contemplate how many people falsely infer from mere belief that they are true Christians.

Jesus teaches that the Spirit will replace Him, and it will be better situation for believers, I suppose because the Holy Spirit will be with each believer. So it's not strange that believes will feel force and hear sounds, because the disciples felt the force and sound of Jesus's presence, grieved Him and often had to depart from Him.

(3) a failure to grasp the meaning of biblical metaphors that imply the need for experiential or sensory confirmation of the Spirit's presence:
Jesus promise to "dine" with believers who invite Him in is obviously a metaphor for an experience of intimate nurturing fellowship with Christ's Spirit (Rev. 3:20; 1 Peter 2:3). Jesus' sensory metaphor of drinking in the Spirit also presumes sensory experience and not merely a doctrine. (See my elaboration of this point in (4) below.)

Rev 3:20-Context, context, context! Jesus is not talking to individuals here. He is speaking to the Church.

1 Peter 2:3- Actually, doctrine is in view here. See Hebrews 6:4,5 and other parallels :

Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

(4) a failure to distinguish larger context from the more relevant immediate context:
One poster dismisses my allusion to drinking in the Spirit in 1 Cor 12:13 on the grounds that the larger context deals with spiritual gifts. His objection can be refuted on 2 grounds:
(a) What is relevant is the immediate context, not the larger context, and the immediate context deals with spiritual baptism into the Body of Christ, an act that makes us a Christian. So its metaphor of drinking in the Spirit is dealing with the Spirit's role in our salvation, not His role in inspiring spiritual gifts.

1 Cor 12:13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

The gifts are edifying gifts, specifically through revelation, parallels being found in the Exodus, when God revealed His ability and willingness to make Israel a blessing to the world, this doctrine given through drinking from Christ.

(b) More importantly, the poster ignores my supportive text (John 7:37-39, which has nothing to do with spiritual gifts. Here Jesus' drinking metaphor implies an experience of the Spirit in 2 ways: (a) the believers' spiritual thirst is quenched by the Spirit's arrival. (b) The Spirit's presence is confirmed by an inner upwelling of living water, a beautiful metaphor that implies a refreshing experience of the Spirit's flow.

Those who drink from the Rock themselves become rocks. Joshua's loyalty to God flowed from witnessing Moses manifesting signs and wonders. Rahab's loyalty sprung up from seeing Joshua manifesting signs and wonders.

(5) a failure to grasp the significance of holy emotions--love, joy, peace-- that are fruit of the Spirit, not the result of human striving:
Paul repeatedly makes it clear that these emotions are richer than their equivalent ordinary emotions (1 Peter 1:7; Phil. 4:7). It may take a long time to grow enough to experience these emotions. But the point is that one's claim to have the Holy Spirit is seriously called into question if these holy emotions, fruit of the Spirit, are not experienced.

Joshua had peace after profiting from drinking from the Rock. But not all profited, and with them God was not please, and He swore that they would never become rocks, blessings to the world.

(6) a failure to grasp the significance of the questions Paul poses to congregations about the Spirit:
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (Acts 19:2)?" What posters have overlooked is that Paul has not founded the church at Ephesus and does not know these people. So he is on a fact-finding mission. His question addresses the initial work of the Spirit, not a 2nd work after they have received the Spirit at their conversion. So Paul is asking whether the Ephesians have experienced the initial redemptive work of the Spirit, not whether they have spoken in tongues or prophesied.
In their focus on what I say about Acts 19:2, posters have ducked my reference to Paul's question to Corinthian believers in 2 Corinthians 13:5: "Test yourselves. Do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!" Paul uses the "Spirit of Christ" interchangeably with "the Holy Spirit." So he is asking them to introspect to determine whether they experience Christ's living Spirit within.

But the experience led to speaking in tongues, revelation of doctrine!

(5) a failure to consider Paul's teaching about the inner witness of the Spirit (Rom 8:16;
When we get saved, we experience the Spirit in many ways, including in an inner witness that reassures and provides conviction: e. g.
"...It is that very Spirit that bears witness with our Spirit that we are God's children (Romans 8:16)."
"God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father! (Gal. 4;6)!"
"Our message of the Gospel came to you not simply in words, but...in the Holy Spirit with full conviction (1 Thess. 1:5)."

Yet another revelation.

A true Christian develops a personal relationship with Christ and this relationship takes the form of experiencing Christ's Holy Spirit in the various ways I have discussed and will continue to discuss on this thread. Stay tuned for the best evidence of all for my case that possession of the Holy Spirit involves experience and not just doctrine accepted by faith.

All revelatory.

Wordkeeper · Jan 10, 2018

Monksailor said:
I spoke in honor of the man's professions. Both were professions of service to mankind and both of which required much education but yielded relative meager wages. There is great honor for committing on'e life to such work.

As far as all of your mystical and eastern stuff and simple cognitive talk, do NOT include me in your we. NEVER< NEVER< NEVER!!! You make no sense and presume very incorrect things.

Specifics please. Thanks.

JIMINZ · Jan 11, 2018

Deadworm:

Here is the whole nut, shell and all.

Mar. 16:16
He that believeth, and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He that Believeth, is a person who has come to the full understanding, Jesus died for his sins, and that he has been forgiven those sins by the Sacrificial death of Christ on the Cross.

We come next to the second step in the Believers Salvation, for without both steps, there is no Salvation.

It is the Believers Baptism which sets him apart from all other human beings as a Child of God, it is only by the Believers Identification with Christ by his Death to the Flesh, and his Resurrection with Christ unto Newness of life by the Holy Spirit that the Believer becomes Saved.

Rom. 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The step of Believing is a Gift of God (His Grace) it is this step which allows the Now Believer to take the second step, for without the first step the second cannot be taken.

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

A person cannot become a Born Again, Child of God, through Baptism before he is first a Believer, he cannot become Regenerated unto Newness of life unless he is a Believer.....But.

A person who does come to the point in his life, where he becomes a Believer, but does not become Baptized as well, is not a Regenerated Child of God.

This person will continue on in his life in the Flesh the same as any Unrepentant sinner, for he has only received Forgiveness of sins that are past, while he remains in the Flesh, he is not walking in the Spirit, he does not have the Power of the Holy Spirit in his life to keep him free of sin.

Rom. 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Gal 5:16-18
16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The Word of God is true, we do not need to apply some addendum it assure ourselves of what God has said is of Faith.

Gal. 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Deadworm · Jan 11, 2018

Wordkeeper: "It was quite enlightening for me to read the article, the uneasy conscience of a non charismatic, by Dan Wallace, available on the internet, where he describes how dry study failed men like Jack Deere and other scholars with multiple credentials, leading them to feel the need to look for experiential evidence of Christianity. Credentials didn't help them."

You speak from ignorance and obviously haven't read Jack Deere's excellent book, "Surprised by the Spirit." The turning point came when Deere and his fellow elders were approached by a well-educated woman in his church to pray for her depression. Their prayers were ineffective. But then a Christian psychiatrist, Dr. John White, came to his church to preach. The elders wanted to disinvite him when they learned he had become charismatic, but they reluctantly allowed him to come. The same woman shared her depression problem with Dr. White, who then quietly rebuked an evil spirit of depression, instantly curing her! It was then that Deere realized how spiritually bankrupt evangelical minimization of the experiential aspect of the Spirit truly is. So he studied Scripture in greater depth and discovered the teaching I've expressed on this thread.
Monksailor: "I was wondering if the reason that you cited "megachurches" as having the problem with 1/3 of their regular attendees as not being saved and sub-sequentially produced absolutely NO reason why the allusion exclusively to "megachurches" as having this problem was made. Is that because churches like you Pastored, non-megachurches, were also claiming similar percentages, but trying to "save face" for your favored churches you chose to make "megachurches" a scapegoat?"

You need to learn to read: the study I cited focused on megapastor opinions; so I lack hard data on the comparative perspectives of smaller church pastors. The notion of "a personal relationship with Christ" must be clarified in terms of our concrete experience of the Spirit, but that experience, though self-authenticating, is subjective: you can know you've experienced the Spirit, but I can't be sure what you've experienced, and so, for that reason I can't be the judge of whether or not you are saved. But here's the reason I cite this study: megachurch pastors recognize that a faith based on mere assent to a set of doctrines is insufficient for salvation. The additional need for works (see e. g. James 2:14-26) is beyond the scope of this thread. Even with righteous works, the often elusive experience of the Spirit is decisive.

Monksailor: "You say, "Now I prefer to let God be the Judge of what His minimal requirements for salvation are and who has adequately met them."

Then you say, "But it is not enough to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord (citing e. g. Romans 10:9-10); no one is a true Christian without experiencing regeneration through the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, 5; Romans 8:9)."

Interesting. You presume to be God, the judge, immediately after you prefer NOT to so be."

Nonsense! In the quote you cite, I document how both Jesus and Paul establish the Holy Spirit's work as a necessary condition for salvation. So the blizzard of prooftexts on mere faith as the only condition for salvation are inadequate because either they don't address the question of whether believers have the Spirit or they just assume that the Spirit automatically possessed by virtue of profession of faith. So I rely on Scripture and don't play God or Judge.

Please pardon what appears to be pettiness but I assure it is not. You did a very shabby job in trying to establish that there is no "expression" of a personal relationship with Christ in God's Holy Word. Coming from a person of such credentials as yours that is usually a BIG red flag warranting a stop and deep examination."

On the contrary, I clearly document biblical evidence that receiving the Spirit is a matter of mystical experience, not an automatic birthright of "intellectual believism." I present a standard academic position that has not filtered down to the dumbed down notions prevalent in evangelical churches that divorce salvation from the actual redemptive experience of the Spirit.

Monsailor: "As far as all of your mystical and eastern stuff and simple cognitive talk, do NOT include me in your we. NEVER< NEVER< NEVER!!! You make no sense and presume very incorrect things."
Your bluster needs to be seasoned by the rigor of a critical engagement with the biblical texts I have cited and will cite as I continue to make my case. Since Albert Schweitzer's magisterial book, "The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle," scholars widely recognize that Paul's language is often his best effort to express mysticism that, as experience, cannot adequately be expressed in words.

Wordkeeper · Jan 11, 2018

Deadworm said:
Wordkeeper: "It was quite enlightening for me to read the article, the uneasy conscience of a non charismatic, by Dan Wallace, available on the internet, where he describes how dry study failed men like Jack Deere and other scholars with multiple credentials, leading them to feel the need to look for experiential evidence of Christianity. Credentials didn't help them."

You speak from ignorance and obviously haven't read Jack Deere's excellent book, "Surprised by the Spirit." The turning point came when Deere and his fellow elders were approached by a well-educated woman in his church to pray for her depression. Their prayers were ineffective. But then a Christian psychiatrist, Dr. John White, came to his church to preach. The elders wanted to disinvite him when they learned he had become charismatic, but they reluctantly allowed him to come. The same woman shared her depression problem with Dr. White, who then quietly rebuked an evil spirit of depression, instantly curing her! It was then that Deere realized how spiritually bankrupt evangelical minimization of the experiential aspect of the Spirit truly is. So he studied Scripture in greater depth and discovered the teaching I've expressed on this thread.

I'm not a cessationist: signs and wonders have a place in the Christian experience, but I believe they are given to convince people to stop serving Egypt and start serving God. Moses was quite clear that he felt no one would leave Egypt and follow God into the wilderness without signs and wonders to indicate God's presence with the prophet.

What I object to is the teaching that sensory experiences are needed to confirm the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The presence of the Holy Spirit is needed for building up. That is why Jesus said our heavenly Father would not refuse to give us the Holy Spirit, just as our earthly fathers would not deny us things which are good for us. The mass of information available in Scripture is impossible to understand without the leading of the Holy Spirit. Ever since I've asked for daily bread as commanded by Christ, I've been blessed by coherent and comprehensive teaching from Scripture. That's certainly worth more than the warm fuzzy wuzzies that come and go according to circumstances and moods.

Healing from depression is wonderful, and I pray to be healed from all types of illnesses, but what carries me through when healing doesn't happen is understanding why that healing hasn't happened.

As I said, it's a cognitive experience. Christ is not called the Word for nothing. And it's not surprising that the first symptom of the indwelling is sometimes tongues, which edify those who manifest it. They are being blessed!

Acts 19:2He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

Acts 2:14-21

14But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. 15“For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALLMANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.

19‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.

20‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.

21‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Deadworm · Jan 11, 2018

The widespread opposition to this experience-based model of a personal relationship with Christ is an important reason why we can't have another Great Awakening and why young people are jumping out of the windows to get away from our dead churches. I will now elaborate thesis (2) of the OP, but will leave discussion of personal transformation and growth to a future post:

(2) It is not enough for you to regularly confess your sins and gratefully embrace God's grace. You must also be able to point to identifiable signs of supernatural power and spiritual transformation and growth. Among other things, this means you have identified and exercised your spiritual gifts and displayed the fruit of the Spirit.

This post will offer 6 points establishing the initial receptive of the Spirit as an experience of divine power:
(1) Paul disparages the impotent doctrine-based faith that posters pass off as implying an automatic reception of the Spirit. Instead, Paul insists that true faith is based on receiving the Spirit in a demonstrable experience of divine power.

"My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."

(2) Paul likes to repeat his this comparative trivialization of correct theology alone; he makes clear that "full conviction" or assurance is one manifestation of this power:

"Our message of the Gospel came to you not in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction (1 Thessalonians 1:5)."

(3) For Paul, a memorable initial experience of the regenerative Spirit, whether immediate or delayed, is essential and has immediately led to "miracles" in new converts:
"Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing?...Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law, or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"

It seems foolish to Paul to replace life-changing divine experience with theology, legalistic or otherwise.

(4) In 1 Corinthians 4:19-20 Paul asks believers like the posters who prefer a spirituality of mere words and faith his main question: Are they men of power?

"I will come to you soon and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on words, but on power."
(5) In fact, we are warned to "avoid" churches or believers whose "outward form of godliness" denies any accompany corroborative witness of divine "power:"

Believers "holding to the outward form of godliness, but denying its power--avoid them (2 Timothy 3:5)!"

(6) By embracing this spirituality of Spirit power rather than a mere doctrine-based faith, we receive power for the problems of daily living: "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me(Philippians 4:13)."

JIMINZ · Jan 12, 2018

Deadworm said:
But how can we know whether we have been born again through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit?

.
A Believer having been Baptized can know of assurety, that he has been Regenerated unto Newness of Life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Pet. 4:2
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

All of these verses attest to the Regeneration of the Believer through Baptism, I do not need to question the validity of God's word, I only need to Believe it as Truth.

By the way, I don't proof Text, I post appropriate Verses to back up my beliefs,
I mostly let the Verses speak for themselves, so if you have an argument it isn't with me, but the Verses themselves because they Refute your espoused beliefs.

Paul told a specific grope of people to work out their Salvation with fear and trembling, only because he was not there with them, he told them he sent Timothy, but until then, it was on them to do it, he wouldn't be ther to lead them by the hand.

What you have done is Proof Texting to make your point without posting all of it.

Php 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

There are three parts to that Verse, which you conveniently didn't post, in order for the Verse to say what you wanted it to say.

Emmy · Jan 12, 2018

Dear Deadworm. A personal relationship with Christ, would be wonderful. Jesus tells us in Matthew 22; 35-40; God is our Heavenly Father, and we are told in Matthew; The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with all thy minds. the second is like it; love thy neighbour as thyself." That is simple to understand and short to remember. The Bible tells us: give up all selfish and unloving thoughts and wishes, remember that Jesus died for us, and now we have to be as God wants us to be: Always loving and forgiving. Love is everlasting, and love changes everything to the better. The Bible keeps telling us, let us now follow Jesus back to God. Give up all selfish thoughts and wishes, let us LOVE GOD and follow Jesus back to God. Love is very catching, and love will always be the victor. Let us start treating our neighbour, as we would love to be treated. Who is our neighbour? all we know and all we meet. God will notice our behaviour, and God will bless us greatly. Satan will run away from us, LOVE is the word, and the deed. I say this with love, Deadworm, and send greetings. Love from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

geetrue · Jan 12, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
16but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALLMANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.

19‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.

20‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.

21‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

This is the end of time not the start of a movement ... "He who is first is last and he who is last is first"

The Spirit world we live in knows who Jesus is and they will either cry out to Him in the end or they will curse Him and die.

Wordkeeper · Jan 12, 2018

geetrue said:
This is the end of time not the start of a movement ... "He who is first is last and he who is last is first"

The Spirit world we live in knows who Jesus is and they will either cry out to Him in the end or they will curse Him and die.

Actually "this" is:

Acts 2:
4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Not at all an end times event.

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