iamlamad

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WRONG,the theme is about the DAY of the Coming of Jesus and our Gathering UNTO HIM.

2 Thessalonians 2

Nowhere in the whole passage there is mention of going to Heaven.

You add your wishful thinking to the text...
You are exactly right here. But you overlook John 14.
If you wish to remain behind and NOT go to heaven, that is between you and God. But don't steal this experience from others. The Bride of Christ is going to heaven.

What is it with you? Do you not want to see heaven? Do you not want to see your mansion God has prepared for you? Perhaps you are worried yours will be a shack instead of a mansion? When we are gathered, what are you going to say to Jesus when we begin to go UP?
 
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Truth7t7

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Scripture teaches 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the "Last Day" Resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" John 6:40, John 11:23-24

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

As The Holy Bible Clearly Teaches, There Will Be No Pre-Trib Rapture, A False Teaching.
Sorry, you are in error here.
1 Thes. 4 & 5, and 2 Thes. 2 both show a pretrib rapture. It is sad you cannot see it. And no matter how many times you write it, you will still be in error.


This is true. But this does not preclude His coming 7 plus years previous to take His bride to heaven.

Yes, millions of pretribbers claim this truth. Your points are all truth, but they still do not preclude Jesus from coming 7 years before FOR His bride.

This is error also. OF COURSE people survive! Will you remove all the sheep from the sheep and goat judgment?
 
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Riberra

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You are exactly right here. But you overlook John 14.
It seem that you have overlooked some details in John's writings ---> about WHO will enter in it ...and WHEN we will enter in it.

Those who will OVERCOME will have their names written on it ....and they will enter in it when New Jerusalem will come DOWN to the Earth.

Nobody will be raptured to Heaven while they are alive.....>That is the City Of God who will descend to the earth.


Just in case you don't know it: OVERCOME does NOT mean BEING TAKEN TO HEAVEN before any kind of Tribulation be it small or GREAT ----

Revelation 3:12-13
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.


Revelation 21:7
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God: 4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.

6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
 
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John Prewett

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Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Now, if you are a descendant of Jacob, then I will agree, the 70th week is for you. But if you are a Gentile, this time is not for you. In this case, your above post is nonsense.

In fact, the rapture will come before your Rev. 13. Wake up and realize the truth! If you wish to be left behind, that is between you and God. But please don't try and take others with you.

God has made a way of escape from His wrath.

Luk. 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Again, if you chose to ignore this way of escape, that is between you and God. But why would you try and convince others there is no escape?

"yea, like I dun tole ya, trying to correlate with such as Daniel, Matt 24, 2 Thess
causes more confusion than it does add to understanding."


Maybe for you, if you don't understand them. However, they are really not that difficult to understand. Here you are, attempting to teach others, yet ignoring the very scriptures that show your theory false. For example, you mention Rev. 13, which is at the midpoint, or shortly thereafter, of Daniel's 70th week. And said week is for the descendants of Jacob! If you wish to put yourself in their shoes, that is between you and God. But don't try to convince Gentiles they should follow you!

Daniel and Luke were addressed to ancient Israel and have NOTHING to do with OUR end of era scenario ..... no matter what your religious-ethnic background.

You are off on a worse than worthless sidetrack.
 
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John Prewett

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Christianish love to say and hear "Jesus could come today" Come today to whisk His people to heaven. To "rapture" His people out of this world of woe and temptation. It's sounds soooooo good. Only problem is, it is false.

Revelation ch 13 reveals the Beast "wages war on the saints."
WITH NO MENTION of a second batch of "saints" being previously "raptured."

Jesus's "saints" (His real Church) being on earth when the Beast emerges and reigns is really WONDERFUL !

WONDERFUL for Christians. Not for the Christianish.

Christians are NOT waiting to be "raptured."
Christians are "waiting on the Lord" to be EMPOWERED as per Isaiah 40:28-31.

Christians are waiting for OUR day of Pentecost.
Christians aspire to and look forward to serving Jesus Christ IN POWER
before the Beast emerges and while the Beast reigns.

Christians look forward to the day of beheading,
knowing the instant the blade falls IS the real moment Jesus's Saint is "raptured "

Cease being Christianish. Aspire to be and pray Jesus make you a Christian.
 
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Truth7t7

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Christianish l and hear "Jesus could come today" Come today to whisk His people to heaven. To "rapture" His people out of this world of woe and temptation. It's sounds soooooo good. Only problem is, it is false.

Revelation ch 13 reveals the Beast "wages war on the saints."
WITH NO MENTION of a second batch of "saints" being previously "raptured."

Jesus's "saints" (His real Church) being on earth when the Beast emerges and reigns is really WONDERFUL !

WONDERFUL for Christians. Not for the Christianish.

Christians are NOT waiting to be "raptured."
Christians are "waiting on the Lord" to be EMPOWERED as per Isaiah 40:28-31.

Christians are waiting for OUR day of Pentecost.
Christians aspire to and look forward to serving Jesus Christ IN POWER
before the Beast emerges and while the Beast reigns.

Christians look forward to the day of beheading,
knowing the instant the blade falls IS the real moment Jesus's Saint is "raptured "

Cease being Christianish. Aspire to be and pray Jesus make you a Christian.
John I agree with much you have written however?

I don't think the antichrist is gonna run around killing Christians as many teach.

Revelation 11 thee "Two Witnesses" are gonna have the Antichrist & world tied up in plagues, sorta like a replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.

I see the world being "Tormented", not the church, as Revelation 11:10 clearly shows.

Will there be martyrs, "Yes" those whom God prepares, just as there are martyrs today.
 
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jgr

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Of course, "apostasia" can mean a departure from the faith, but the writer would have to add "from the faith" for that meaning is not included in "aopostasia." All that is included is a departure. From what must be derived from the context or by adding words.

For example, in Acts 21:21 - And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs - the writer had to add "Moses" so the reader would know what was being departed from.

You say Paul did not identify the restrainer. No, you are mistaken!
verse 6:
New International Version
And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

Paul wrote that they would now know who the restrainer is. But this just goes right over most reader's heads. HOW would they now know? It is very simple: Paul JUST TOLD THEM, but wrote this so they were read again very carefully to see who this restrainer is.

Any beginning reader can understand verses 7 & 8: there is a force that is restraining, preventing the man of sin from being revealed until the right time, but that restrainer WILL BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. And THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

Got it? The restrainer is preventing the revealing, but when the restrainer is taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

verse 3:....the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Note carefully what we read here in the NIV: the man of lawlessness IS REVEALED. Then Paul tells us what he will do once he IS REVEALED.

But wait! He cannot be revealed until the one restraining is "taken out of the way!" Paul is telling us that in verse 3a the one restraining IS taken out of the way! It is the church, who will be taken out of the way. And apostasia can certainly mean a spacial depature, where from a whole, a part is taken and moved to a different location.

Here is what STrong's wrote for "APO" Greek, which is the first part of Apostasia:

B. of separation of a part from the whole
i. Where of a whole some part is taken

C. of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

D. of a state of separation, that is of distance
i. physical, of distance of place
ii. temporal, of distance of time

Please answer this question:
when the rapture takes place, with the church "depart?"
Will the church be "separated" by physical distance from earth?
Will their "union" with earth be destroyed?

Of course you know the answer to all these is YES.

So Paul's meaning for apostasia is the one restraining being "taken out of the way." It is THE (again significant) Departing of the church, which will remove the restraining force.

So paul wrote, "and NOW YOU KNOW!"
Paul never identifies the restrainer.

You appear not to have read John Crysostom's explanation of why he didn't, so I'd recommend that you do.

The speculation of apostasia as spatial rather than spiritual departure first appeared in 1895. It was unheard of prior to that time.

Departure as rapture is not found in a single contemporary English Bible translation in existence, including Darby and Scofield.

I contacted the Lockman Foundation, producers of the acclaimed NASB translation.

The NASB translators commented on the article in which Thomas Ice attempts to remake 2 Thess. 2:3 in the dispensational image of spatial departure:

"The online article cited offers arguments which are incorrect. The verb that apostasia comes from has several meanings, but the main meanings include "revolt," "desert," "fall away," and even "become a backslider." The noun apostasia is not automatically capable of having all of the meanings that the verb does. The way the meaning of a word is determined is by examining how it is used, and apostasia is consistently used of revolting, rebellion, and abandoning a belief system. Aside from 2 Thess 2:3 it is only found in Acts 21:21 in the New Testament, where it is used of abandoning the Law of Moses. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it occurs in Josh 22:22, 2 Chr 29:19, and 1 Macc 2:15, and in each verse it refers to apostasy or rebellion.

It is interesting that the writer also cites Liddell and Scott (now LSJM) in support, observing that the first definitions are "defection" and "revolt." He fails to mention that LSJM immediately add, "especially in a religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy," and then go on to cite not only Josh 22:22 but also 2 Thess 2:3. So what the writer states is simply a misleading presentation of the evidence. The argument about the translation shift is irrelevant in view of the evidence for the correct meaning, and this argument is also questionable. "Departure" seems not to have meant simply to leave a place, but to separate from someone or something. For these and other reasons the NASB translators are confident about the meaning "apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:3."


And yes, the Thessalonian church did know. And so do we.
 
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Riberra

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Will there be martyrs, "Yes" those whom God prepares, just as there are martyrs today.
The question is: what makes you think that God have not prepare you to be a martyr if the tribulation was to happen tomorrow ?Refusing to take the mark and refusing to worship the Beast /Antichrist and his image during the 42 months reign of the Beast [Revelation 13:15-16] = Head Chopped Off [Revelation 20:4-6].

-By chance we are not close to that time.-

But there are brethren who are less lucky -than us- in Muslim countries.

They goes through great tribulation ---- The 5 Th Seal Revelation 6:9-11 .
 
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faroukfarouk

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For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

We can give thanks that he will provide the way of escape......The Pretribulation Rapture
Exactly! :)
 
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Riberra

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-Then we which are alive and REMAIN ....

Alive and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS ....that is the same gathering who is mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 WHEN JESUS WILL COME IN THE CLOUDS IN GLORY ...

Do a search about the meaning of the word REMAIN if you are not convinced that it is talking about SURVIVORS BELIEVERS AFTER THE TRIBULATION....


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


re·main
/rəˈmān/

verb

1. continue to exist, especially after other similar or related people or things have ceased to exist:
synonyms: continue to exist, endure, last, abide, carry on, ... more
 
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Truth7t7

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The question is: what makes you think that God have not prepare you to be a martyr if the tribulation was to happen tomorrow ?Refusing to take the mark and refusing to worship the Beast /Antichrist and his image during the 42 months reign of the Beast [Revelation 13:15-16] = Head Chopped Off [Revelation 20:4-6].

-By chance we are not close to that time.-

But there are brethren who are less lucky -than us- in Muslim countries.

They goes through great tribulation ---- The 5 Th Seal Revelation 6:9-11 .
Post scripture reference where the beast kills all christians who refuse or dont take the mark?

post it
 
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faroukfarouk

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-Then we which are alive and REMAIN ....

Alive and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS ....that is the same gathering who is mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 WHEN JESUS WILL COME IN THE CLOUDS IN GLORY ...

Do a search about the meaning of the word REMAIN if you are not convinced that it is talking about SURVIVORS BELIEVERS AFTER THE TRIBULATION....


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Actually I don't see Matthew 24 being about the church.
 
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Riberra

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Actually I don't see Matthew 24 being about the church.
I don't see anything saying that they are NOT the believers of the Church.The Bible say that those whose names are written in the Book of life will not worship the beast ----->thus the elects are survivors believers.
 
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Riberra

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Post scripture reference where the beast kills all christians who refuse or dont take the mark?

post it
The antichrist and his minions will kill ALL those who will refuse to worship him and take the mark

Revelation 20:4-6 is the BIblical proof ...

Only few believers will still be alive and REMAIN unto the coming of Jesus ---->because Jesus will shorten the days of the reign of the Beast for the ELECT sake.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I don't see anything saying that they are NOT the believers of the Church.The Bible say that those whose names are written in the Book of life will not worship the beast ----->thus the elects are survivors believers.
Matthew 24 seems to be about the Great Tribulation, and I don't see that the church will be the object of Divine wrath during it.
 
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Riberra

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Matthew 24 seems to be about the Great Tribulation, and I don't see that the church will be the object of Divine wrath during it.
The WRATH of GOD upon those who will have taken the mark and worship the Antichrist [Revelation 16] will happen AFTER the wrath of Satan [Revelation 13]TO AVENGE THE BLOOD OF THE CHRISTIANS.

We are not appointed to God's wrath ---->but Satan wrath is another matter.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Do a study on "Elect" in the New Testament, you will find its the Church.
The Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and the tribulation principle in John 16 seem to be distinct. One is a unique, specific event, the other affects all Christians, one way or another.
 
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Truth7t7

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The WRATH of GOD upon those who will have taken the mark and worship the Antichrist [Revelation 16] will happen AFTER the wrath of Satan [Revelation 13]TO AVENGE THE BLOOD OF THE CHRISTIANS.

We are not appointed to God's wrath ---->but Satan wrath is another matter.
Post the scripture that states all christians are beheaded who don't take the mark.

Who's gonna be alive and remain?

Lift up you heads your redemption draweth nigh?

You have all the saints remaining with chopped off heads?
 
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Riberra

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The Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and the tribulation principle in John 16 seem to be distinct. One is a unique, specific event, the other affects all Christians, one way or another.
If Jesus have planned "to remove the believers out of the Earth before the Tribulation" He would not had said :
Matthew 24:13
13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
 
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