The Sabbath Day: Saturday or Sunday?

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food4thought

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BobRyan, I can see that you firmly believe that we should be keeping the Sabbath, and I quite honestly don't have the endurance and motivation to answer everything you have posted.

I simply pray that your faith is in Jesus Christ, not in your keeping of the Law of Moses. Go in peace.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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wrong.

In Matthew 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments" and He is asked "which ones" at which point we find the same list from the TEN as you find in Romans 13 given by Paul.

Nothing there about not taking God's name in vain.
Or loving God with all your heart..

Yet in Matthew 22 Jesus said that Loving God with all your heart also applies.

This shows the repeated efforts to "downsize" the Word of God - the Commandments of God - have failed.

Did you even read what I wrote? Nobody "downsized" anything...He SUMMARIZED the 10...meaning the first 4 are how to love God and the last 4 are how to love your neighbor!
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan, I can see that you firmly believe that we should be keeping the Sabbath,

Almost everyone here has "firm beliefs" -- also true during the Protestant Reformation and true at the time that the Christian church was launched from within the Jewish church.

I agree with you on that point. it is a "given".

The point is to take a look at the "Bible details" for as long as your doctrine will tolerate it because then everyone gets to see the comparison and when "the Bible details" are too much for a given POV.

Which is true in general of all of these topics.. Sabbath or not.

Everyone has free will.. they can choose for themselves.
 
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BobRyan

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Did you even read what I wrote? Nobody "downsized" anything...He SUMMARIZED the 10...meaning the first 4 are how to love God and the last 4 are how to love your neighbor!

Sorry about that ..

Yes first 4 are love for God.
Last 6 are the duty that we have to our fellow man. Including our parents.

It is the last 6 that keep getting repeated by NT authors.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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No one did this, this was made up by the Seventh Day Adventists to confuse and threaten people into joining them. It is a strawman argument. It is a question based on a false premise that requires you to accept the premise to answer the question. That premise is that Christians worship on Sunday because it is the Sabbath. NO. That's completely made up. They want you to think if Saturday is the Sabbath, you must worship with all Christians on that day

No one negated the Sabbath. Christians met on Sunday. They always have. Ancient writings record this. When pockets of Christians were discovered they worshiped on Sunday.
So who gave you authority to make holy the first day of the week and to disregard God's Holy day?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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But as gentile NT saints we are not enjoined to keep the 10 commandments as Law, or any part of the Law of Moses as Law. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 7:6; 2Corinthians 3:6), and He will obviously lead us to be loving, good, moral people

Is that why we are told we are also Abrahams seed to whom the covenant was given? That we are GRAFTED INTO the covenant given to the Israelites? That Gentiles all through the Bible were enjoined into the congregation of the Israelites and worshiped as they were Commanded?

I feel sorry for you that in your rebellion, you can't see that all of God's children are the same from Adam to the present and that God does not change in how He has asked us to honour Him...
 
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dreadnought

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In Genesis 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11 the Bible makes it clear that the Sabbath is on the 7th day of the seven day week. We have a seven day week, starting on Sunday and ending on Saturday as the seventh day... so OBVIOUSLY Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Where does the Bible say that Saturday is the last day of the week?
 
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Original Happy Camper

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The Word of God does not command Christians to gather on Saturn's Day. The Books of Acts, every historical Christian writing, and every isolated Christian group does without a doubt prove that Christians gathered together on Sunday. It's not like you belong to Christian sect that resorts to convincing people Christians must worship on Saturday. Like, that's all they have. They can't talk about how great their sect is. They just obsess about this single issue over and over... because, they literally named themselves after their one bad argument. To the point of making arguments about how other Christians think Sunday is the Sabbath when no one says that. They don't make cut and pastes of made up, unverifiable sources.. such as Albert Cobbler in 1885 said the Catholic Church replaced the Sabbath.. or "We doth hold upon ourselves the changers of the Sabbath" Unium Sanctius Hora Lectio Apostolia, Rerum XVI, Tantum Ver 9, pars i. As if any person would think, well gee golly, you got me now, that sounds legit.

Cut and pasted from the internet

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Exodus
20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lordwill not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.


12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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He SUMMARIZED the 10...meaning the first 4 are how to love God and the last 4 are how to love your neighbor!

So explain to me how your faith deals with the first 4 in light of relics, icons, veneration and sunday worship
 
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Yekcidmij

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Is this what you are trying to get at??

What I'm getting at is asking if you follow the ten commandments as found in Exodus 34. In Exodus 34:1-4, Moses is commanded to write down what God tells him and in Exodus 34:27-28 we're told that Moses wrote down what God told him - the 10 commandments. However, the commands given in between vss 4 and 27, though they are called the "10 commandments" are not identical to the commandments in Ex 20 (nor are either of those lists identical to the commands in Deut 5). And interestingly enough, the commands in Ex 34 are explictly called "the ten commandments" while the one's in Ex 20 are not. And I doubt you observe these ten commandments listed in Ex 34.

I think this is worth noting because you think others should observe all of the 10 commandments as written, but when you come across a list of "10 commandments" you don't seem to follow them. Here are a few in the list I suspect you don't follow:

34:12 Be careful not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it become a snare among you. 34:13 Rather you must destroy their altars, smash their images, and cut down their Asherah poles.

34:18 “You must keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

34:19 “Every firstborn of the womb belongs to me, even every firstborn of your cattle that is a male, whether ox or sheep. 34:20 Now the firstling of a donkey you may redeem with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, then break its neck. You must redeem all the firstborn of your sons.“ No one will appear before me empty-handed.

34:22 “You must observe he Feast of Weeks – the firstfruits of the harvest of wheat – and the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year. 34:23 At three times in the year all your men must appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel

34:25 “You must not offer the blood of my sacrifice with yeast; the sacrifice from the feast of Passover must not remain until the following morning.

34:26 “The first of the firstfruits of your soil you must bring to the house of the Lord your God.

So you have a few interpretive options to get around this problem, all of which seem to have to center around arguing that this isn't really the 10 commandments or somehow isn't applicable, but everything in Exodus 20 is. I think it takes a little gymnastics to reconcile the view that everyone is required to observe Ex 20, but not Ex 34.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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So explain to me how your faith deals with the first 4 in light of relics, icons, veneration and sunday worship

What is to explain? Jews had and still have relics...nothing wrong with icons since they are not worshiped and Sunday is the day on which Yeshua rose from the dead and Christians have historically met on that day since Pentecost...but of course you wouldn't know that because your church is how old?. And the Sabbath is STILL on Saturday!
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I've asked over and over where the Bible says that Saturday is the last day of the week. I am still waiting for an answer.

I have asked over and over when will you stop asking dumb questions...I'm still waiting for an answer...
 
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BobRyan

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What I'm getting at is asking if you follow the ten commandments as found in Exodus 34. In Exodus 34:1-4, Moses is commanded to write down what God tells him .

Not True - in Ex 34:1 GOD writes the same Ten already spoken and already written before. Not Moses. All Moses does is "get the blank stones" -- Moses writes commandments in Ex 34 .. and God writes the Ten on stone.

1. God writes the Ten Commandment according to 34 vs 1 as already pointed out.

And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

You keep skipping over that verse for reasons I can't explain

2. God also spoke the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20.

3. Moses writes commandments in Ex 34 but they are never called "The Ten" Commandments in scripture. I notice that you keep doing that ... not sure why.

However, the commands given in between vss 4 and 27, though they are called the "10 commandments" are not identical to the commandments in Ex 20

The commandments in Ex 34:4-27 are never called "the Ten Commandments" in the Bible and never written on stone.


Ex 34:28
So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

It is the spoken list that we have in Exodus 20 that are called the "TEN Commandments" spoken by God and Exodus 34:1 - written by God.

Deuteronomy 4:13
"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.


Deuteronomy 10:4
"He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.

Deut 5

19 " You shall not steal.
20 " You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
21 " You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field or his male servant or his female servant, his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.'


Deut 5

22 ""These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

23 ""And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near to me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders.
24 ""You said, "Behold, the LORD our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he lives.


The spoken list of Exodus 20 also repeated in Deut 5 include almost all commands about our duty to our fellow man - not found in Ex 34 list that you keep pointing - a list not written by God in stone, not spoken by God, not called the Ten Commandments.

11 ‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

12 ‘Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

16 ‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, that your days may be prolonged and that it may go well with you on the land which the Lord your God gives you.

17 ‘You shall not murder.
18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.
19 ‘You shall not steal.
20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field or his male servant or his female servant, his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.’

Moses Interceded
22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.



Deuteronomy 4:13
"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.


Deuteronomy 10:4
"He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.


Paul says of them "Honor your father and mother for this is the FIRST COMMANDMENT with a promise" Eph 6:2.

It does not even show up in the list you focus on "instead"

Christ said "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones" in Matt 19 -- the list he gives is found in the TEN but not in the few that Moses wrote in Ex 34.

Paul also quotes from the commandments of God in Romans 13 -- none of which are found in the list you are diverting to - and almost all of which are in the TEN Commandments spoken by God and written by God in stone.

================
John Gill's Commentary Ex 34:27
write thou these words; expressed in the preceding verses, from Exodus 34:11, as he before had written in a book all those laws, contained in Exodus 21:1 called the book of the covenant, Exodus 24:4 and which perhaps might be destroyed, as well as the two tables were broken; and therefore upon the renewal of the covenant here, there is a repetition made of the principal laws before given, which are ordered also to be written in a book, which may very well be called by the same name, since it follows:


John Gill's commentary - Ex 34:28
and he wrote on the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments; not Moses, for these were tables of stone, which he could not write or engrave upon without proper instruments, which it does not appear he had with him on the mount; but it was God that wrote them, who, in Exodus 34:1 says he would write them, and from Deuteronomy 10:2 we are assured he did.
 
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