What we Need to Be Saved From

Tree of Life · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I think I see what you're saying....that all the author listed are symptoms of sin (is that correct?). But the way I see it.....he's just getting more descriptive in describing sin. I think too often we try to separate ourselves from the word by thinking SIN is some giant trespasses we'd NEVER commit.

I don't mind his description of sin, but it's only one way to describe sin. Sin is much more complicated and nuanced than that one description communicates. So to isolate that one description would be to neglect huge dimensions of sin that are equally real.

Tree of Life · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
.....and you're getting that from where?

Deuteronomy 27:26 - “‘Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’

also

Galatians 3:13 - 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

FireDragon76 · Jan 11, 2018

Sounds like overly therapeutic claptrap.

Sin, pain, and suffering are going to be around till the end of the world.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I don't mind his description of sin, but it's only one way to describe sin. Sin is much more complicated and nuanced than that one description communicates. So to isolate that one description would be to neglect huge dimensions of sin that are equally real.

Feel free to expand on his description. ISTM that all sin can be placed under the umbrella he described. For instance.....if a close friend stole from me when I had her over for dinner....that would be a hurt and betrayal. If my son got killed by a drunk driver....I could feel betrayed by our civil laws....I'd obviously be hurt. Can you think of something that falls outside his parameters?

Tree of Life · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Feel free to expand on his description. ISTM that all sin can be placed under the umbrella he described. For instance.....if a close friend stole from me when I had her over for dinner....that would be a hurt and betrayal. If my son got killed by a drunk driver....I could feel betrayed by our civil laws....I'd obviously be hurt. Can you think of something that falls outside his parameters?

Well he doesn't mention sin as rebellion against God. He doesn't mention sin as false worship. He doesn't mention sin as unbelief. He doesn't mention sin as hatred of God and hatred of neighbor. He doesn't mention sin as self-love.

All of these are equally important dimensions of sin.

Each of the 10 commandments is describing a different dimension of the same sin that resides within all of us.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Deuteronomy 27:26 - “‘Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’

also

Galatians 3:13 - 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

It doesn't make sense that God would curse us and rescue us. The curse has to have a different origin (to my mind). That sounds a lot like the psychological disorder Munchausen by Proxy. There's a contrast between "the law" and His grace in Scripture. We are cursed under the law.

Tree of Life · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
It doesn't make sense that God would curse us and rescue us.

Take it up with the Bible.

There's a contrast between "the law" and His grace in Scripture. We are cursed under the law.

Indeed. All of us are born under God's Law. We have all failed to obey God's Law. And so all of us have merited the curse of God's Law. We are cursed by virtue of the Law. But thanks be to God that he has provided a way of escape from this curse in Jesus Christ.

FireDragon76 · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
It doesn't make sense that God would curse us and rescue us. The curse has to have a different origin (to my mind). That sounds a lot like the psychological disorder Munchausen by Proxy. There's a contrast between "the law" and His grace in Scripture. We are cursed under the law.

You are missing the bigger picture, with is glorification or deification.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
Sin, pain, and suffering are going to be around till the end of the world.

I'm sorry. That just sounds like a hopeless cop-out. Shouldn't we attempt to do better? Love better? Imitate Christ more?

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Take it up with the Bible.

I have no problem with the verses you posted...only the interpretation that puts God as the origin of the curse (the text doesn't suggest that). In going back to Genesis.....God never cursed Adam or Eve.

FireDragon76 · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I'm sorry. That just sounds like a hopeless cop-out. Shouldn't we attempt to do better? Love better? Imitate Christ more?

Sure, but not necessarily because we can transform the world. That's above our pay grade.

FireDragon76 · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I have no problem with the verses you posted...only the interpretation that puts God as the origin of the curse (the text doesn't suggest that). In going back to Genesis.....God never cursed Adam or Eve.

But God did set down the conditions for that curse to happen, so in some sense, it's part of his plan.

Tree of Life · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I have no problem with the verses you posted...only the interpretation that puts God as the origin of the curse (the text doesn't suggest that). In going back to Genesis.....God never cursed Adam or Eve.

You can read all about how God curses sinners in Deuteronomy 28. Here's an excerpt:

Deuteronomy 28:20-24 - 20 “The Lord will send on you curses, confusion, and frustration in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me. 21 The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And the heavens over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will make the rain of your land powder. From heaven dust shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
You are missing the bigger picture, with is glorification or deification.

Are you suggesting God cursed us in order to rescue us? For His glory?

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
But God did set down the conditions for that curse to happen, so in some sense, it's part of his plan.

It's all a part of His plan....in the way that sin didn't catch Him by surprise. But.....He also had a plan to reverse that even before it happened.

FireDragon76 · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Are you suggesting God cursed us in order to rescue us? For His glory?

Sin will be swallowed up in victory. It will be a perspective that completely transcends our present condition.

Maybe spending time with Julian of Norwich or some of the other great mystics of the Church could help you get a big picture.

Marvin Knox · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I thought this was an interesting take on what it is we need saving from:............Your thoughts? Arguments?

There are any number of things we need to be saved from. All of them have to do in some way with sin and it's effect on our existence.

Ultimately though - to get to the bottom line - what we need to be saved from is God Himself. His wrath is being revealed against the world even now and it will reach a crescendo at the great white throne judgement.

Thanks be to the Lord that we can be saved from the wrath of God to come through faith in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary on our behalf.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2018

Tree of Life said:
You can read all about how God curses sinners in Deuteronomy 28. Here's an excerpt:

Deuteronomy 28:20-24 - 20 “The Lord will send on you curses, confusion, and frustration in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me. 21 The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And the heavens over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will make the rain of your land powder. From heaven dust shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

That's old covenant....the law. We have to keep reading....the Bible doesn't end there (that's like reading a mystery with a plot twist and stopping at the climactic point---in my view). There's a plot twist to the Bible....the great reversal (but I don't take it literally that God cursed us).

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
Sin will be swallowed up in victory. It will be a perspective that completely transcends our present condition.

Maybe spending time with Julian of Norwich or some of the other great mystics of the Church could help you get a big picture.

I don't disagree with any of this. Incidentally....I doubt the author of this article would either...as it was through him that I learned about Julian of Norwich.

Tree of Life · Jan 11, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's old covenant....the law. We have to keep reading....the Bible doesn't end there (that's like reading a mystery with a plot twist and stopping at the climactic point---in my view). There's a plot twist to the Bible....the great reversal

Jesus is the way we escape from the one covenant into a new covenant. Without Jesus, people are still trapped under the law and under the wrath of God and in need of salvation.

(but I don't take it literally that God cursed us).

How then do you take it? It sounds like the Bible doesn't fit your theology. So you're rejecting the Bible.

What we Need to Be Saved From

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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