Be Thankful for the Coming Pretribulation Rapture

JacksBratt said:

Actually, one, the first, HE only comes in the clouds. Second, the final one, He comes to earth, with His army of Angels and the judged and rewarded saved from the rapture, 7 years earlier.

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RIGHT ON! Good post!

iamlamad said:

This is a true statement, but does preclude His coming in the Clouds on some previous time - which He will as shown in 1 Thes. 4 and 2 thes. 2.

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 & Matthew 24:29-31 is the very same event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ".

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

100% "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day"! John 6:40, John 11:23-24

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

Don't run from this fact of scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

Davy said:

Jesus commanded us to 'watch'. And He told us the signs to be watching. That is HOW we are to watch. It's not about turning that command to watch into some meaning of just being ready in one's own mind.

If you don't watch for the signs He gave, which is what the context is about in that Matt.24 chapter, then you might be deceived.

Matt 24:42-47
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

That "Watch therefore:" connects the signs He was covering in that chapter. Did you read them? do you know them? Are you watching for them?


43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

If His command for us to be watching only means to be ready in our own mind for His coming, then He would not have said that "in what watch the thief would come".

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Good points. Another good point: if someone believes they will see the Antichrist, then how can they be watching for our Lord?

Riberra said:

There are only TWO scriptures who talk about a gathering of the believers ...Both are saying that this will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 tell us the caught up and gathering to meet Jesus in the Clouds in THE AIR will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS with the SOUND OF A TRUMPET.

Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus COMING in the CLOUDS IN GLORY WILL SEND HIS angels AT THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET TO GATHER the elect.

The pre-tribbers have made TWO events out of the ONLY ONE COMING OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS.

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This shows us how much you really know. There is yet a third scripture you left out: 2 Thes. 2. And in this scripture, the "departing" or gathering is the one restraining or holding back the man of sin being "taken out of the way." Note carefully, the departing (of the church) is shown to come before the man of sin is revealed. No wonder you did not want to mention this scripture.

iamlamad said:

This shows us how much you really know. There is yet a third scripture you left out: 2 Thes. 2. And in this scripture, the "departing" or gathering is the one restraining or holding back the man of sin being "taken out of the way." Note carefully, the departing (of the church) is shown to come before the man of sin is revealed. No wonder you did not want to mention this scripture.

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2 Thes. 2 talk about A DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH[APOSTASIA] NOT A DEPARTURE FROM THE EARTH....

Truth7t7 said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 & Matthew 24:29-31 is the very same event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ".

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No, you only imagine they are the same event. They cannot be. The Matthew 24 gathering gathers from heaven. and Paul's gathering must come before the man of sin is revealed.

Truth7t7 said:

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17? "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day"! John 6:40, John 11:23-24
Don't run from this fact of scripture.

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Right and wrong. Yes, there will be a resurrection on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week, but that will be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. The resurrection of the dead in Christ, according to Paul, will come just before the 6th seal and just before the man of sin is revealed.

Truth7t7 said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

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You are putting two verses together as if they fit - which they don't. We must "rightly divide" the scriptures. These are two different gatherings for two different people groups.

You can search and find, as I have said before, scripture and comentaries on scripture that will back both of these heated and battled views.

I like this one: – Jesus will come “with all His saints.” Who are all these saints?

Here are some pieces. It is a very well laid out and documented piece.


First Thessalonians 3:13 says Jesus will come “with all His saints.” Who are all these saints? “Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another, and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”1 Thessalonians 3:11-13

That the Lord would return to this earth with thousands of His saints to execute judgment on the ungodly had already been prophesied by Enoch long before the Flood (Gen. 5:22-24; Heb. 11:5; Jude 14-15). The Flood in Genesis 6-8 obviously was not the fulfillment of this prophecy, nor can we point to any other time or event in history indicating that this prophecy has been fulfilled. It still awaits fulfillment.

Not all saints are a part of the Church. Ephesians 5:25-33 shows us that the Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church began at Pentecost – when the Holy Spirit baptized 120 believers into one body – and it will be complete at the Rapture


Right after the marriage supper of the Lamb we are presented with Christ’s visible return to this earth to execute judgment, put down evil, and set up His kingdom. He returns “with all His saints” (1 Th. 3:13),

Here is the conclusion:
Let’s sum up this vast subject. At the Rapture all the dead in Christ will be raised, and living Christians will be changed and caught up together with them. No unsaved dead will be included in this company. We believers will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ to give account of how we have lived, and there we will be given rewards for all we have done that has pleased Him. This time will be followed by the marriage supper of the Lamb when we are displayed in glory as the Bride and Wife of the Lamb. During this time the earth will have been reeling under God’s well-deserved wrath, the seven years of tribulation, the second half being called the Great Tribulation. At the end of this period the Lord will return visibly to earth with all His saints (not merely His bride) who had earlier been caught up to be with Him. He will deal with the armies of this world and their leaders. These armies will have united against Him, against this “invasion from outer space,” as they may possibly term it. He will not actually fight but will be completely victorious by the word of His mouth. The Lord Jesus will then judge the nations, set up His kingdom and reign in righteousness for 1000 years. During this time Satan will be bound and powerless to deceive the nations. We will reign with Him for 1000 years.

Riberra said:

2 Thes. 2 talk about A DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH[APOSTASIA] NOT A DEPARTURE FROM THE EARTH....

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I guess you are not very well verses in the early translations into English, or for that matter, well verses in Strongs Greek.
All apostasia tells us is there is a departing, but NOT WHAT IS BEING DEPARTED FROM. You just ad libbed that part, just like the KJV translators did.

The truth is, this departing is the "taking out of the way" of the one who is restraining. Do you imagine a falling away is restraining the man of sin? If anything that would assist him!

No, it is not a falling away, is THE (significant) departing, and in context, can only be one departing: the gathering mentioned as the theme of this passage. It is the one who is restraining being taken out of the way.

JacksBratt said:

Here is the conclusion:
Let’s sum up this vast subject. At the Rapture all the dead in Christ will be raised, and living Christians will be changed and caught up together with them. No unsaved dead will be included in this company. We believers will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ to give account of how we have lived, and there we will be given rewards for all we have done that has pleased Him. This time will be followed by the marriage supper of the Lamb when we are displayed in glory as the Bride and Wife of the Lamb. During this time the earth will have been reeling under God’s well-deserved wrath, the seven years of tribulation, the second half being called the Great Tribulation. At the end of this period the Lord will return visibly to earth with all His saints (not merely His bride) who had earlier been caught up to be with Him. He will deal with the armies of this world and their leaders. These armies will have united against Him, against this “invasion from outer space,” as they may possibly term it. He will not actually fight but will be completely victorious by the word of His mouth. The Lord Jesus will then judge the nations, set up His kingdom and reign in righteousness for 1000 years. During this time Satan will be bound and powerless to deceive the nations. We will reign with Him for 1000 years.

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Well said! I could not have said it better!

iamlamad said:

No, you only imagine they are the same event. They cannot be. The Matthew 24 gathering gathers from heaven. and Paul's gathering must come before the man of sin is revealed.

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2 Thes. 2 talk about A DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH[APOSTASIA] that will precede the revealing of the man of sin....the pre-tribbers interpret the text as meaning a departure from the Earth ----go figure why ?--->pre-tribbers like to twist the meaning of Scripture

Riberra said:

2 Thes. 2 talk about A DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH[APOSTASIA] that will precede the revealing of the man of sin....the pre-tribbers interpret the text as meaning a departure from the Earth ----go figure why ?--->pre-tribbers like to twist the meaning of Scripture

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It is very easy to see why: the departing or rapture or gathering is the THEME for this passage of scripture!

Can you answer this question honestly and correctly?

In 2 thes. 2:3b, is the man of sin revealed - or is he not?

iamlamad said:

It is very easy to see why: the departing or rapture or gathering is the THEME for this passage of scripture!

Can you answer this question honestly and correctly?

In 2 thes. 2:3b, is the man of sin revealed - or is he not?

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The text say clearly that the APOSTASY will happen before the man of sin is revealed.The consequence of the massive departure from the faith from the believers is what will make that God will not restrain the man of sin anymore.

iamlamad said:

This shows us how much you really know. There is yet a third scripture left out: 2 Thes. 2. And in this scripture, the "departing" or gathering is the one restraining or holding back the man of sin being "taken out of the way." Note carefully, the departing (of the church) is shown to come before the man of sin is revealed. No wonder you did not want to mention this scripture.

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No the Church isn't "Departing" from this earth as you add to the scripture.(of the church)

"Apostasia" "Apostasy"

The Church is "Departing" falling away from the faith.

iamlamad said:

It is very easy to see why: the departing or rapture or gathering is the THEME for this passage of scripture!

Can you answer this question honestly and correctly?

In 2 thes. 2:3b, is the man of sin revealed - or is he not?

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Yes the man of sin will be revealed, and the church will be present on earth to witness the event.

"Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means"!

iamlamad said:

I guess you are not very well verses in the early translations into English, or for that matter, well verses in Strongs Greek.
All apostasia tells us is there is a departing, but NOT WHAT IS BEING DEPARTED FROM. You just ad libbed that part, just like the KJV translators did.

The truth is, this departing is the "taking out of the way" of the one who is restraining. Do you imagine a falling away is restraining the man of sin? If anything that would assist him!

No, it is not a falling away, is THE (significant) departing, and in context, can only be one departing: the gathering mentioned as the theme of this passage. It is the one who is restraining being taken out of the way.

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Your now a bible translator, as you correct the KJV translators, "Big Smiles"

Take some time to study the KJV translators "Scholars" I'm sure you will be humbled.

Take some time to study the "Novum Testamentum Graece" The Greek Translation that supports all modern versions NIV, NASB, ESV, ETC.

Committee Members: Kurt Aland, Barbara Ehlers Aland, Carlo Maria Martini.

You will find "Kurt Aland" who left his wife and children for "Barbara Ehlers Aland" his college student, and don't forget the Roman Catholic Jesuit Cardinal, Homosexual Union Supporter, "Carlo Maria Martini"

And you question the authority and ability of the KJV translators "Scholars" "Big Smiles"

iamlamad said:

This shows us how much you really know. There is yet a third scripture you left out: 2 Thes. 2. And in this scripture, the "departing" or gathering is the one restraining or holding back the man of sin being "taken out of the way." Note carefully, the departing (of the church) is shown to come before the man of sin is revealed. No wonder you did not want to mention this scripture.

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2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Let's ask ourselves some questions based on what the text indicates.


for that day shall not come

What day shall not come? the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. That day, IOW the rapture.

Verse 3 is then meaning this----Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Seriously, does it make good sense that the rapture and the falling away are referring to the exact same event? Which would basically make verse 3 meaning the following then----Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a rapture first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Come on now, Paul was a very educated man, not to mention, he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Does anyone actually believe they could construct a sentence this lame, where the sentence is basically saying---Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a rapture first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition?

A 5th grader would likely have better writing skills than that. No reasonable person would say---for the rapture shall not come, except there come a rapture first---but that's exactly what it would be saying if that day and the falling away are meaning the same event. The text clearly tells us that the rapture cannot occur until there is a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
And not that the rapture and the falling away are the same event. That conclusion renders that verse nonsensical, as I have illustrated above.

"DavidPT said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Let's ask ourselves some questions based on what the text indicates.


for that day shall not come

What day shall not come? the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. That day, IOW the rapture.

Verse 3 is then meaning this----Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Seriously, does it make good sense that the rapture and the falling away are referring to the exact same event? Which would basically make verse 3 meaning the following then----Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a rapture first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Come on now, Paul was a very educated man, not to mention, he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Does anyone actually believe they could construct a sentence this lame, where the sentence is basically saying---Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a rapture first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition?

A 5th grader would likely have better writing skills than that. No reasonable person would say---for the rapture shall not come, except there come a rapture first---but that's exactly what it would be saying if that day and the falling away are meaning the same event. The text clearly tells us that the rapture cannot occur until there is a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
And not that the rapture and the falling away are the same event. That conclusion renders that verse nonsensical, as I have illustrated above.

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Your Human Reasoning Paid Off On This One Dave.

The rapture will not come, unless the rapture takes place?

"Big Smiles" to that truth!

Pretty Simple, And They Will Still Argue In Support Of This Oxymoron.

Choose Wisely said:

I guess that can be your option if you choose to ignore what the scriptures say. That's about the only way you can arrive at the conclusion that there will not be a pretrib rapture...........just ignore the facts.

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It seems that the clear majority of the true Church apologists for 18 centuries ignored them as well.