Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

David Kent said:

The same as those we read in the scripture, the king of the Jews who would come and restore the kingdom to Israel.

But I would have been wrong as all those Jews were, including the apostles.

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Would you have been wrong to believe that Jesus is the promised great King of Israel, though ? The disciples were not wrong ahead of time on that account.

The point is David, "the" messiah pertains to being the great promised King of Israel. For the person to become the Antichrist - Anti-messiah - it applies to being the promised King of Israel, Anti - instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.... Anti-messiah does not applied to being the head of Jesus's Church, the called out ones. Anti-messiah applies to someone the Jews will receive as their King of Israel. Another, instead of Jesus, and being somone that God did not send to be their King.

The person who becomes the Antichrist does not claim to be Jesus - head of the church - but will be instead of and against Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, and will be speaking against the church, who follow Jesus as Lord and Savior.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people "still" believe that God in so interested in propping up geographical nations, assuring they have a particular piece of earth, or that some plot of ground is holy. despite all the Biblical information to the contrary. Israel is not the holy nation, it is not waiting for its Messiah and God owes nothing to the people.

1st Kings 8:56

• "Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant."

God owes the nation of Israel nothing. And His covenant with them concerning the land was conditional, not unconditional. The only unconditional Promise was of Christ and the Spiritual promised land.

So why are there many people who believe that God would send all the forces of evil of the world against the nation of Israel?

It is to support TV Evangelism, Premillennialism, Dispensationalism, Private Interpretations? ...naaaa. Why might it "appear" that way? To confound the wicked? Maybe.

Douggg said:

Would you have been wrong to believe that Jesus is the promised great King of Israel, though ?

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• Acts 1:6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Notice that Jesus did not answer the question in the way they wanted. The kingdom was instituted at Pentecost.

• Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ

Notice that tribulation and the kingdom apply to John's brothers in Christ.

• John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

TribulationSigns said:

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people "still" believe that God in so interested in propping up geographical nations, assuring they have a particular piece of earth, or that some plot of ground is holy. despite all the Biblical information to the contrary. Israel is not the holy nation, it is not waiting for its Messiah and God owes nothing to the people.

1st Kings 8:56

• "Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant."

God owes the nation of Israel nothing. And His covenant with them concerning the land was conditional, not unconditional. The only unconditional Promise was of Christ and the Spiritual promised land.

So why are there many people who believe that God would send all the forces of evil of the world against the nation of Israel?

It is to support TV Evangelism, Premillennialism, Dispensationalism, Private Interpretations? ...naaaa. Why might it "appear" that way? To confound the wicked? Maybe.

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God owes us nothing either. It is by grace we are saved, not by works.

So why are there many people who believe that God would send all the forces of evil of the world against the nation of Israel?

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God brings the nations to battle. God is going to defend Israel - that God is bringing them to Him, which they will be judged,

David Kent said:

I find most of you postings are a mish mash and so mixed up they cannot be considered, Luther said "Nonsense is incapable of refutation."

However I believe that our forefathers were correct in recognising that the Papacy was the Antichrist.

I know that Nero was the last of the Caesars. But when John delivered the book of Revelation, the 6th was still ruling, he was an emperor. And the seventh, and the eighth?

The historicist teaching that I follow, says The five fallen were Kings, 1st republic. 2nd republic, triumverate, dictators, The ruling were emperors, the seventh was the Christian Emperors, The eighth who was not of the seven is the papacy, who is also the beast who is not and yet is.

All the previous kings were dynasties and the eighth, Papal Antichrist is also a dynasty. The Pope calling himself Vicar of Christ is also calling himself Antichrist because they both mean the same, someone in place of Christ, or Vice Christ.

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The 1st and 2nd century Church fathers didn't recognize a pope as the Antichrist, and I align pretty closely with them, especially the 1st century fathers before the Amil craze hit.

Douggg said:

God owes us nothing either. It is by grace we are saved, not by works.

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?? Your point is?

God brings the nations to battle. God is going to defend Israel - that God is bringing them to Him, which they will be judged,

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Not if you understand nations as you think they are. God defined nations as Gentiles, the heathens. Same goes with Israel. It's not national Israel, but covenant Israel. Big different. God is bringing Gentiles (unbelievers) INTO church with lyings signs and wonders to deceive professed Christians within. This is the spiritual battle of Armageddon, not a physical battle over a plot of land.

David Kent said:

Matthew, Mark and Luke were all speaking of the same thing but they use different language to describe those events, they was speaking of the temple then standing and Jerusalem then standing.

"The days of vengeance" which as you say was a quote from Isaiah, and refers to the vengeance n that generation for crucifying their Messiah thus filling up the measure of their fathers. Matthew 23:32

When people say, "This is going to Happen then that will happen" don't believe them, very little prophecy ever was like that it was mostly understood only after it was fulfilled.

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Afraid not. He was specifically talking about the day of God's vengeance at the end of this world:

Luke 21:22
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

That is why that phrase, "that all things which are written may be fulfilled" is included with that "days of vengeance". It helps mark the timing of that being the end of this world.

This is why a couple of verses later He said this:

Luke 21:25-28
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

Those who think that was about 70 A.D. are sorely misguided and I feel sorry for them.

TribulationSigns said:

?? Your point is?

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Ezekiel 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. see Matthew 24:31 Ezekiel 39:28

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Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Not if you understand nations as you think they are. God defined nations as Gentiles, the heathens. Same goes with Israel. It's not national Israel, but covenant Israel. Big different. God is bringing Gentiles (unbelievers) INTO church with lyings signs and wonders to deceive professed Christians within. This is the spiritual battle of Armageddon, not a physical battle over a plot of land.

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You are getting that from Zechariah 14? What lying signs and wonders in Zechariah 14?
There are no lying signs and wonders in Zechariah 14. God is gathering all nations against Jerusalem for battle, which in verse 2, God fights against those nations.

I have sat in church sermons where the preacher takes and reads a verse - and then after reading that verse, launches into a thirty minute sermon on whatever he wants to talk about, no connection at all to the verse he read.

What background possibly leads into the thought process you have? Could be please explain?

David Kent said:

Avoiding the point.

Do you believe the saints will be raised on the last day, which you say is after the tribulation? John 6:39,40,44,54. John 11:24 ?

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"Absolutely Yes"

"Jesus Returns After The Tribulation"
Matthew 24:29-31

There is one future resurrection of the believer at the return of Jesus Christ as shown in Matthew 24:29-31, gathering the elect dead in Christ.

"Immediately After The Tribulation"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man"

This resurrection takes place on "The Last Day" when Jesus Returns.

When Jesus Returns its "The Last Day" of earths existence, as it will be dissolved by the Lords fire. 2 Peter 3:10-13, 1 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, Luke 17:29-30

Davy said:

The 1st and 2nd century Church fathers didn't recognize a pope as the Antichrist, and I align pretty closely with them, especially the 1st century fathers before the Amil craze hit.

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Of course they didn't, popes didn't exist in their day.
What the did believe and teach was that the let and hindrance in 2 Thessalonians 2 was the roman emperor and the Emperor, and that when the empire was removed the empire would be overthrown by ten kings, then would be the antichrist.

So let us refer to History, The Roman Empire and Emperor were removed (taken out of the way) by Constantine. And shortly after, overthrown by ten Gothic kings.
Then the papacy arose.
The early church writers could not see all of that, only the outlines given in scripture. (I don't call them fathers because Jesus said, "Call no man father")

They also said the temple in Revelation was the Church. Do you agree with them in that? I do.

Douggg said:

Ezekiel 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. see Matthew 24:31 Ezekiel 39:28

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Ezekiel was writing at the time the Jews were exiled, and notice he is using the past tense. He is speaking about his time and the Lord would return them from that exile. Fulfilled.

Douggg said:

The person who becomes the Antichrist does not claim to be Jesus - head of the church - but will be instead of and against Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, and will be speaking against the church, who follow Jesus as Lord and Savior.

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I don't see what you mean, you seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Israel and the church are One. WE have become part of the commonwealth of Israel,

• Ephesians 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
• 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
• 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
• 14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
• 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
• 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The man of sin sits in the Temple of God, the Church.

• 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
• 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
• 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

David Kent said:

I don't see what you mean, you seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Israel and the church are One. WE have become part of the commonwealth of Israel,

• Ephesians 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
• 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
• 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
• 14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
• 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
• 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The man of sin sits in the Temple of God, the Church.

• 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
• 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
• 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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I disagree, the man of sin will be a future literal human man, just as the false prophet will be.

Daniel 11:36-37

He, His, Him, Himself

Daniel 7:11

The little horn/ beast will be slain "Die" and "His Body" given to the flame.

I disagree. I have shown already that I believe that applies to Herod the King, herod was King of the Jews usurping Christ's place, he came at the right time at the end of the Greek kingdoms and fulfilled all the prophecies, he honoured a strange god, the god of forces or fortresses, the Roman Emperor, who claimed to be divine.
He was troubled by tidings from the east, the wise men, and the North, Rome, he was in trouble with Rome several times. At his demise Michael stood up, the prince of Daniel's people, Christ, then the saints escaped before the destruction of Jerusalem.

David Kent said:

Ezekiel was writing at the time the Jews were exiled, and notice he is using the past tense. He is speaking about his time and the Lord would return them from that exile. Fulfilled.

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Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [David, has that happen yet?}

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

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What do the Jews have to say about Jesus? Do they know that the Lord their God who entered this earth to add to his being God to becoming a man - to die for their and our sins? Not yet, but to be fulfilled.

David Kent said:

I don't see what you mean, you seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Israel and the church are One. WE have become part of the commonwealth of Israel,

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The many many prophecies in the Tanach of the end times regarding Israel are about the literal nation of Israel. The parable of the fig tree is based on the literal city of Jerusalem. That the Jerusalem must say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord - before Jesus returns, is talking about literal Jerusalem.

Can these verses possibly be talking about the church?

Ezekiel 39:
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
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The person, the arch villain of the end times, can only be the Anti-messiah by becoming the King of Israel.

Are you aware that Jews set a place at their table, when they have their passover meal, for Elijah the prophet, believing that he will come before the messianic age begins?

And are you aware they think the messiah will be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet?

And are you aware that there have been only three kings of united Israel - and all three were anointed by a prophet? Saul and David, by Samuel. And Solomon, by Nathan.

So it would seem the "false prophet" will initially at the beginning of the seven years - will be the person who anoints the Antichrist as the King of Israel.

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• Ephesians 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
• 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
• 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
• 14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
• 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
• 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

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To become neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, but a new creation.

The man of sin sits in the Temple of God, the Church.

• 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
• 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
• 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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It is not saying the revealed man of sin, the son of perdition sits in the church in those verses. Paul is making a point by citing the known fact about any man who defiles the temple of God - the literal temple - God destroys those persons.

David Kent said:

I don't see what you mean, you seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Israel and the church are One. WE have become part of the commonwealth of Israel,

• Ephesians 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
• 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
• 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
• 14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
• 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
• 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The man of sin sits in the Temple of God, the Church.

• 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
• 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
• 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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The temple of God Paul was talking about in 2 Thess.2 is not the Church. The Ephesians spiritual temple idea is based on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, with Christ as The Chief Cornerstone and cannot be corrupted by a false one claiming to be God. Any believer that wrongly bows to an idol or false messiah cuts their self off from the spiritual temple (Christ's Church).

Truth7t7 said:

I disagree, the man of sin will be a future literal human man, just as the false prophet will be. Daniel 11:36-37 .................

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The "man of sin" of Paul's era has come and gone around 2000 years ago.
The "man of sin" of OUR era is the supreme "Beast" of Revelation 13->forward.

The Revelation connects the Beast and the Great harlot.

If a person sees the Beast is a man and correctly IDs the Great harlot,
then one is in position to ID the supreme Beast by name.

One man in recent history fits the Revelation description of the supreme Beast.

Some most significant secrets are hidden in plain sight.

John Prewett said:

The "man of sin" of Paul's era has come and gone around 2000 years ago.
The "man of sin" of OUR era is the supreme "Beast" of Revelation 13->forward.

The Revelation connects the Beast and the Great harlot.

If a person sees the Beast is a man and correctly IDs the Great harlot,
then one is in position to ID the supreme Beast by name.

One man in recent history fits the Revelation description of the supreme Beast.

Some most significant secrets are hidden in plain sight.

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The little horn of Daniel 7:11 & Daniel 11:36-37 are one and the same Beast seen in
Revelation 13, a future event to be fulfilled.

Appears you have multiple Antichrists in history?

I disagree

Truth7t7 said:

The little horn of Daniel 7:11 & Daniel 11:36-37 are one and the same Beast seen in Revelation 13,
a future event to be fulfilled. Appears you have multiple Antichrists in history? I disagree

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I consider your point to be pointless.
Of course there have been "multiple Anti-Christs in history."
"Anti-Christ ... anti-God ... anti-God's people" .... all the same