Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

razzelflabben said:

seems to me that based on Romans 12:2 it is a duel action.

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Rom 12:1 reasonable service. Period.
Rom 12: 2 and renew you mind.

If a person only accomplishes Rom 12:1,
His reasonable service is accomplished.

If a person sustains for example...
Mortal death, in a coma, brain damage, etc.
His reasonable service was accomplished...

But generally yes, I agree, KEEP feeding ones mind from the spirit in their heart.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

I believe when we are Converted God does not change our Minds.

However He does Give us the Power for "us" to change our Minds.

HIs Power / HS, dwells in our new hearts, with our new born again spirits.

As Jesus was bodily, the Teacher on Earth, He is still the Teacher, Spiritually, in men, born of God.

Spirit to our spirit, He teaches.

Our job is to listen to our spirit, Over the thoughts of our Minds.

Particularly- concerning spiritual things, behaviors, inasmuch how to deal with things.

I simply use my mind for other things like any Carnal Mind, choosing what to cook, doing logic puzzles, what house to buy Etc.

The spirit of man is to renew his Mind.
And the effort is the man transforms his Mind to BE Christ-like, Spirit-Minded.

Rom 12:2

God Bless
SBC

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I agree with what you here say.

I also know, as I am sure you do also, that always the credit goes to God even though we must make the choices which allow our minds to begin to change, for it is his effort born of his compassion toward us that we are responding to when we make such a decision. Else we could remain as the Pharaoh whose heart God allowed to remain hardened for the purpose that He could show His power to all.

We could even say that a man who hits his bottom has no place else to go but up. And while there is an element of truth to that, we see that many who hit their bottom get lost to despair and go onto die. We then clearly need to be willing to discipline ourselves away from feeling so right in the flawed conclusions of our mind and heart that cause us to conclude all is as negative as we believe it is. Else we keep ourselves unable to see the hope which always exists of God's faithfulness in love, despite any self-deceived thing we may be fooling ourselves with by believing the lies of our own mind.

It is we that fail ourselves. Never does God fail us.

razzelflabben said:

funny story...after I made the post about my father and his pride I was telling my husband that I said it because I saw my father's behavior in two posters on this thread. He agreed based on what he knew was going on and said to me that the next thing that would be brought up is the passage my father loved to use to try to justify his sin, that of the woman being saved through childbirth...sure enough, one of the very next posts was about the woman being saved through childbirth...lol but it's all me and made up in my mind.. .sure, keep telling yourself that if that is how you sleep at night eventually you will be face to face with the living God and have to answer for your judgments of others.

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It takes two to tango.

True or False: If we look to see faults we will always find faults, even if those faults are only really in the imagination of our mind.

Does our seeking fault have anything to do with the following words of Jesus? Matthew 6:22-23

Can we be busy searching for darkness and not be ignoring the light?

Buzz_B said:

It takes two to tango.

True or False: If we look to see faults we will always find faults, even if those faults are only really in the imagination of our mind.

Does our seeking fault have anything to do with the following words of Jesus? Matthew 6:22-23

Can we be busy searching for darkness and not be ignoring the light?

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it's possible but then again, when someone (me) comes here expecting the best of the poster and is hit between the eyes with something else, then the possible you talk about here no longer applies.

Here is the painful truth Buzz, unlike the other poster who has shown some disturbing characteristics on this thread I honestly don't think you are trying to be harmful in your speech, you simply aren't reading what you are saying for any kind of meaning. IOW's I think yours is an innocent reminder of how much we need to self examine ourselves with sober thought as scripture says. I could be wrong, you might know exactly what you are saying and are too prideful to repent but I think that in your case you are simply refusing to see with your own eyes what you are saying to others.

For example, there is a huge difference between saying, "you don't understand what that passage says, I have done the research and it doesn't say what you claim" when no claim was offered vs. saying "I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to communicate about the topic". The first is judgmental and insulting and rude and not even close to Love (Biblical Love) the second is kind and compassionate, Loving (Biblical Loving) and seeks to reconcile all the discussion into a pleasing aroma to God. If only you could see for yourself what you are saying so that you could offer effective communication rather than all the insults you have been hurling.

razzelflabben said:

it's possible but then again, when someone (me) comes here expecting the best of the poster and is hit between the eyes with something else, then the possible you talk about here no longer applies.

Here is the painful truth Buzz, unlike the other poster who has shown some disturbing characteristics on this thread I honestly don't think you are trying to be harmful in your speech, you simply aren't reading what you are saying for any kind of meaning. IOW's I think yours is an innocent reminder of how much we need to self examine ourselves with sober thought as scripture says. I could be wrong, you might know exactly what you are saying and are too prideful to repent but I think that in your case you are simply refusing to see with your own eyes what you are saying to others.

For example, there is a huge difference between saying, "you don't understand what that passage says, I have done the research and it doesn't say what you claim" when no claim was offered vs. saying "I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to communicate about the topic". The first is judgmental and insulting and rude and not even close to Love (Biblical Love) the second is kind and compassionate, Loving (Biblical Loving) and seeks to reconcile all the discussion into a pleasing aroma to God. If only you could see for yourself what you are saying so that you could offer effective communication rather than all the insults you have been hurling.

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Whatever razzal.

I do not agree with you and I reckon that is just how it is going to have to stay. I could go onto critique why but I see no point in it. You would only be deeply offended by what I would have to say.

Point being that really, honestly, and truly I do not have the slightest clue what you were even offended by and so all I could comment on is what you said about recovering from what your father did to you. For I do not feel that you have recovered as completely as you think and that this is why you take things so intensely personally in highly imaginative ways; ways that seem quite mysterious to others. You know that I too went through extreme trauma in my life. I have told you a little about it. Imagine if I would see everyone as potentially being like those molesters. If I did that I could not really then say I recovered. And people would be very puzzled at me when I treated them as reflections of those who had harmed me, resisting their words and always finding the negative about what they speak.

I do not know what else to tell you except that suddenly feeling you have to be perfect in knowledge and power is not the solution. And that sort of consciousness is not what God gives.

Buzz_B said:

Whatever razzal.

I do not agree with you and I reckon that is just how it is going to have to stay. I could go onto critique why but I see no point in it. You would only be deeply offended by what I would have to say.

Point being that really, honestly, and truly I do not have the slightest clue what you were even offended by and so all I could comment on is what you said about recovering from what your father did to you.

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let me first say I said nothing at all about recovering from anything my father did...I said that it taught me to humble myself before the Lord and before man so that I did not follow in his footsteps....in fact, many of your accusations go against the lessons that God has been teaching me about only taking upon myself what is mine. You see, I have told you several times that one of the areas I struggle with it taking responsibility for things that are not mine to take responsibility for. For example you brought up my father....he taught me that everything is my fault no matter what it is. I learned from a very young age that if someone was upset it was somehow my fault. I took so much upon myself that I began looking for a way to kill myself at the age of 6 so that I couldn't hurt anyone ever again. The story goes on but the key to what I am telling you is that through all of that God taught me that not everything is my fault and that I need to examine myself in honesty and humility with sober thought and in that take hold of only what is mine, only what is truth and dismiss all the lies that I have been taught. The end result of that is that I did examine what you and Gene accused me of and found it to be lies so I did what God taught me and threw it away as lies....to which you tried to tell me that it was wrong for me to do what God taught me to do....you know, to hold to truth and discard lies...you asked me for heaven's sake to sin against God by taking what is not mine and in doing so driving me once again into despair that I cannot be "good" enough to not harm people who are offended because they didn't like the truth of God.

Now...if you want to show me where I have scripture wrong, I have begged you to do so throughout this thread and the best you have to offer is blanket "your wrong" without even knowing what I believe which is judgment and needs to stop.

For I do not feel that you have recovered as completely as you think and that this is why you take things so intensely personally in highly imaginative ways; ways that seem quite mysterious to others.

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lol and yet others see what I am saying about you and why it is offensive to me....isn't that strange, your claim is that others question what you said that was offensive whereas I have others telling me that they know exactly why and agree with me that you are out of line. Lol it really is amazing how completely mankind becomes deceived when their pride is held so tightly that they refuse to accept what is theirs.

You know that I too went through extreme trauma in my life. I have told you a little about it. Imagine if I would see everyone as potentially being like those molesters. If I did that I could not really then say I recovered. And people would be very puzzled at me when I treated them as reflections of those who had harmed me, resisting their words and always finding the negative about what they speak.

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lol and yet I don't see my offenders in everyone, only in those that are repeating the same behavior....maybe I have been praying for you wrong...maybe I should be praying you receive healing rather than just that you open your eyes to see truth....You apparently are seeing me as some molester which I assure you I am not. In fact, as I think about it, your posts do show fear and aggression rather than Love and peace. Maybe you have stumbled upon the problem with your posts and judgmental nature.

I do not know what else to tell you except that suddenly feeling you have to be perfect in knowledge and power is not the solution. And that sort of consciousness is not what God gives.

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lol lol lol oh my...throughout this whole thread I have asked you all to show me where I have it wrong and you all refuse only to accuse me of feeling I am "perfect in knowledge and power"....lol oh my that is funny...sad that you would project your feelings onto me when I have demonstrated the opposite but funny none the less.

As I said before, all it would have taken is a simple discussion of the context of the passages in question and we would have been fine, but you refused in exchange for all kinds of lies and what is really disturbing is your encouragement to me that I sin against God by taking on myself your sins.

Let me tell you a story about deceptions and how completely Satan wants to deceive us.

We know a man who had an affair. Actually multiple affairs but his wife kept taking him back and forgiving him. Eventually he divorced his wife all the while living with the mystress. As time went by, he not only was living with the woman but encouraging his young daughters to do the same with their boyfriends. By the time the divorce was final he married his mistress and throughout the entire thing he claimed he was living out the righteousness of Christ because he was justified to divorce his wife because he no longer loved her.

Now this is a man that is obviously living in sin and yet proclaiming himself and believing he was being righteous. That is massive deception right there. Now, we could take his word for it, as you want us to do here for you all, or we can look at the evidence which I suggest we do and discover that the man is living in sin whether he had a reason to divorce his wife or not. The evidence shows you are wrong...which means at this point it is between you and God and you need to let go of your problem with me and deal with your problem before the Living God who knows you better than you know yourself.

razzelflabben said:

let me first say I said nothing at all about recovering from anything my father did...I said that it taught me to humble myself before the Lord and before man so that I did not follow in his footsteps....in fact, many of your accusations go against the lessons that God has been teaching me about only taking upon myself what is mine. You see, I have told you several times that one of the areas I struggle with it taking responsibility for things that are not mine to take responsibility for. For example you brought up my father....he taught me that everything is my fault no matter what it is. I learned from a very young age that if someone was upset it was somehow my fault. I took so much upon myself that I began looking for a way to kill myself at the age of 6 so that I couldn't hurt anyone ever again. The story goes on but the key to what I am telling you is that through all of that God taught me that not everything is my fault and that I need to examine myself in honesty and humility with sober thought and in that take hold of only what is mine, only what is truth and dismiss all the lies that I have been taught. The end result of that is that I did examine what you and Gene accused me of and found it to be lies so I did what God taught me and threw it away as lies....to which you tried to tell me that it was wrong for me to do what God taught me to do....you know, to hold to truth and discard lies...you asked me for heaven's sake to sin against God by taking what is not mine and in doing so driving me once again into despair that I cannot be "good" enough to not harm people who are offended because they didn't like the truth of God.

Now...if you want to show me where I have scripture wrong, I have begged you to do so throughout this thread and the best you have to offer is blanket "your wrong" without even knowing what I believe which is judgment and needs to stop. lol and yet others see what I am saying about you and why it is offensive to me....isn't that strange, your claim is that others question what you said that was offensive whereas I have others telling me that they know exactly why and agree with me that you are out of line. Lol it really is amazing how completely mankind becomes deceived when their pride is held so tightly that they refuse to accept what is theirs. lol and yet I don't see my offenders in everyone, only in those that are repeating the same behavior....maybe I have been praying for you wrong...maybe I should be praying you receive healing rather than just that you open your eyes to see truth....You apparently are seeing me as some molester which I assure you I am not. In fact, as I think about it, your posts do show fear and aggression rather than Love and peace. Maybe you have stumbled upon the problem with your posts and judgmental nature. lol lol lol oh my...throughout this whole thread I have asked you all to show me where I have it wrong and you all refuse only to accuse me of feeling I am "perfect in knowledge and power"....lol oh my that is funny...sad that you would project your feelings onto me when I have demonstrated the opposite but funny none the less.

As I said before, all it would have taken is a simple discussion of the context of the passages in question and we would have been fine, but you refused in exchange for all kinds of lies and what is really disturbing is your encouragement to me that I sin against God by taking on myself your sins.

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Philemon 1:25 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."

I hope nothing but the best for you.

But I also know: "He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls." Proverbs 25:28

Buzz_B said:

Philemon 1:25 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."

I hope nothing but the best for you.

But I also know: "He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls." Proverbs 25:28

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see, more judgement without cause....this is the problem you and other posters are having, you pretend to be judge and jury when God alone is judge.

razzelflabben said:

see, more judgement without cause....this is the problem you and other posters are having, you pretend to be judge and jury when God alone is judge.

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That is not judgment dear woman.

You need to rethink such negative views. No one can help you until you do.

Kaylaherin said:

This is a very hot topic that I am sure many have noticed. Both in Christendom and also outside of it as well. I have a stance on this, and I know there are many different stances. I know of people personally, that are believers that feel that we should have weapons in our home for defense, and also those that do not believe we should defend in a way that brings bodily harm to anyone? It seems that this is a topic that is extremely controversial.

I am interested to know if there are any other believers that feel as if they would not own a gun or a weapon in self defense, and why. I am also interested in knowing from the other perspective, those that are for owning them and do own guns and weapons, and why? Or even if you desire to not own any for that purpose, but are not against someone owning them?

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I don't understand why this should ever be an issue. Trouble with many Christians is being passive. It's kinda like facing a firing squad believing you won't get hurt.

Maybe the thread is really a phishing scheme to find gun owners.

bugkiller

brinny said:

Did the gun do this on its own?

(asking for a friend)

Coffee?

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Nice coffee! Just doesn't look all that strong.

bugkiller

tulc said:

...the one and only time a follower of Jesus uses a sword in the New Testament Jesus rebuked the guy using it and healed the person he struck. I think if you want to use the Bible to support us owning a weapon then we'd have to follow Jesus example and do like He did. I'd also ask: where did Jesus ever mention His followers owning guns in the Bible?
tulc(would be interested in that last bit most of all)

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Thosevery verses ran through my reasoning the other night as a told myself I needed to get my hand gun permit before its too late.
Before I was forced to retire (kinda cancer led to a heart & kidney transplant) I worked for the state. As part of the job description, transportation officer, we were required to carry a weapon. In reality we were not encouraged to use it. Better to lose state”property”, what you are when incarcerated, than to endanger yourself or others. And NY city being what it is there were several neighborhoods we entered (funeral trips) where I felt it put a huge flouresent target on my back.
In order to keep the job all correction officers must qualify annually. Thats alot of trained citizens, at least in NY. As the elected officials in Albany dont want citizens to own any firearms at all I feel the need to do so. I believe citizens should be able to arm themselves to the same level as their local police agencies.
In reality though, especially with their militarization in the last 15yrs, and in spite of the second amendment, it seems to be a loosing proposition. The state wants an unarmed peasentry.
Thats one angle. The second is how far do I trust His example in the garden. Was that a situational responce, as He knew He had to be sacreficed? And if I give you my cloak does that mean I must turn over my daughters life or body? No, Im not predisposed to do that. If thats a lack of faith Ill carry that burden. It is my role to protect my family from outside harm. Bottom line. If the way I do it is a sin Gods blood already has me covered. Not as license to sin but protection from, even my own.
As an aside I and my extended family were all raised with guns as just a part of life. People would freak out upon seeing a gun in the house. They are just tools. Id counter “you left the key in your car, your hammer on the porch or nailgun in the yard”. Nor can it be operated without shells or a bolt. In NY city everyones afraid of people legally owning guns while knowing everyone has one illegally and thats culturally “cool” and acceptable.
Just like tobacco use, people say its not in the Bible. But sorcery is and we are told not to let any thing master our lives, ie; nicotine addiction. That sentence was worded wrong. Backwards start. You get it. God Bless

RaymondG said:

I do not wish to die by the gun, therefore I shall not live by it. I fear that me trying to protect myself will shed light on the doubt i would have in the protection of the one who sees all and knows all. And who knows, Maybe God will step back and let me have a go at protecting myself.....and if I fail, He will step in again.......as long as my failure is not to the death.

That being said...I dont think it is wrong for other to protect themselves if they desire to. And I personally like Guns and would consider owning one if I had access to a shooting range......never got around to going to one.....but maybe i will get to one day.

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You can rent them at some ranges and shops. My new local gun shop will let you try out one of the guns on their range. You can also bring your own. Thought it was a great concept for a gun shop.

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

Nice coffee! Just doesn't look all that strong.

bugkiller

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LOL!

Buzz_B said:

That is not judgment dear woman.

You need to rethink such negative views. No one can help you until you do.

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lol so the second passage was you talking to yourself...cool, would have been more effective communication if you had said you were talking to yourself rather than quoting me as if you intended it for me....

Ovlov90 said:

Thosevery verses ran through my reasoning the other night as a told myself I needed to get my hand gun permit before its too late.
Before I was forced to retire (kinda cancer led to a heart & kidney transplant) I worked for the state. As part of the job description, transportation officer, we were required to carry a weapon. In reality we were not encouraged to use it. Better to lose state”property”, what you are when incarcerated, than to endanger yourself or others. And NY city being what it is there were several neighborhoods we entered (funeral trips) where I felt it put a huge flouresent target on my back.
In order to keep the job all correction officers must qualify annually. Thats alot of trained citizens, at least in NY. As the elected officials in Albany dont want citizens to own any firearms at all I feel the need to do so. I believe citizens should be able to arm themselves to the same level as their local police agencies.
In reality though, especially with their militarization in the last 15yrs, and in spite of the second amendment, it seems to be a loosing proposition. The state wants an unarmed peasentry.
Thats one angle. The second is how far do I trust His example in the garden. Was that a situational responce, as He knew He had to be sacreficed? And if I give you my cloak does that mean I must turn over my daughters life or body? No, Im not predisposed to do that. If thats a lack of faith Ill carry that burden. It is my role to protect my family from outside harm. Bottom line. If the way I do it is a sin Gods blood already has me covered. Not as license to sin but protection from, even my own.
As an aside I and my extended family were all raised with guns as just a part of life. People would freak out upon seeing a gun in the house. They are just tools. Id counter “you left the key in your car, your hammer on the porch or nailgun in the yard”. Nor can it be operated without shells or a bolt. In NY city everyones afraid of people legally owning guns while knowing everyone has one illegally and thats culturally “cool” and acceptable.
Just like tobacco use, people say its not in the Bible. But sorcery is and we are told not to let any thing master our lives, ie; nicotine addiction. That sentence was worded wrong. Backwards start. You get it. God Bless

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as I was reading this post another passage came to mind that we could apply to this topic, actually several passages


Romans 13:1-5 - Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (Read More...)

Titus 3:1 - Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

1 Peter 2:13-17 - Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; (Read More..

In the US gun ownership is part of the law, NOT that we have to own guns but that guns are legal to own, so why then would a believer who is following scripture want to change the law rather than allow the law to dictate what people own in the case of guns? IOWs scripture does not forbid the ownership of guns why would a believer try to ban them if they are adhering to these passages? Just food for thought nothing more or less.

Buzz... I think I need to apologize to you....at this point your denial of the evidence is so bad that I began to laugh at you and play with your pride rather than have empathy and compassion and that is wrong of me. So I officially apologize for playing games with you as to the point of your obvious problems with seeing how you judge others. I will go back to ignoring you since you refuse to be civil and simply pray you have eyes to see. I joined back in because it seemed like you wanted to talk about the topic at hand but apparently I was wrong to assume that from your post.

razzelflabben said:

as I was reading this post another passage came to mind that we could apply to this topic, actually several passages


Romans 13:1-5 - Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (Read More...)

Titus 3:1 - Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

1 Peter 2:13-17 - Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; (Read More..

In the US gun ownership is part of the law, NOT that we have to own guns but that guns are legal to own, so why then would a believer who is following scripture want to change the law rather than allow the law to dictate what people own in the case of guns? IOWs scripture does not forbid the ownership of guns why would a believer try to ban them if they are adhering to these passages? Just food for thought nothing more or less.

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I believe the right to defend oneself is God given. IDK if those who want to ban firearms are believers or not. But my guess..... If they are banned then Id have to choose; become unarmed or become an “out law”. I know some will take that term the wrong way. But either choice theyre in Gods hands.

RaymondG said:

I do not wish to die by the gun, therefore I shall not live by it.

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Then, don't become a criminal who lives by the gun.

That is what the term meant at the time the Bible was written. Criminals lived by the sword.
Jesus was not condemning self defense. And, note. He did not tell Peter to throw away that sword. He told Peter to put it back in its holder, and stop behaving like a criminal.