Davy

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Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

If this was post trib it would be rather well announced!

It is well announced, even by Jesus who gave that warning of Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial that He comes "as a thief".

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV


If Jesus is still warning His Church on earth at the 6th Vial timing like that is showing, then the "day of the Lord" when He comes to gather His Church doesn't happen until the 7th Vial is poured out. That because Paul showed the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5). Peter showed that timing too (2 Pet.3:10).

That's enough info Jesus gave there to let us know for sure that His return and gathering of His Church on earth is after the tribulation. Hey... didn't He show His return and gathering of the saints would be 'after the tribulation of those days'? Yes, He did, in Matthew 24.
 
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DavidPT

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So which of the following below are meaning the 2nd coming, and whichones are meaning the Pretrib rapture and why? Everyone of these either says--the coming, thy coming, whose coming, or His coming---so how can one possibly derive more than one coming out of all of these?

IOW, how does one twist the coming to be meaning the comings, since that's what it would have to mean if there is more than one coming involved in all of the below? The same for thy coming, whose coming, and His coming, as well. So why doesn't any of the text below say something such as---at one of the comings, rather than the coming? An example---we which are alive and remain unto one of the comings(parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. It doesn't say that though. That is a good example of reading one's doctrine into the text.


1----we which are alive and remain unto the coming(parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(1 Thessalonians 4:15)

2----the coming(parousia) of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(2 Peter 3:12)

3----and what shall be the sign of thy coming(parousia), and of the end of the world?(Matthew 24:3)


4----the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him---be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand(2 Thessalonians 2:1-2)

5----the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming(parousia): Even him, whose coming(parousia) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders(2 Thessalonians 2:8-9)

6----Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord(parousia)---for the coming(parousia) of the Lorddraweth nigh.(James 5:7-8)

7----For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:27)

8----But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:37)

9----And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:39)

10----the resurrection of the dead----in Christ shall all be made alive---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(parousia)(1 Corinthians 15:21-23)

11----Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming(parousia)?(1 Thessalonians 2:19)

12----To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness---at the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints(1 Thessalonians 3:13)

13----I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:23)

14----abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming(parousia)(1 John 2:28)
 
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Choose Wisely

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I watched the video and thought it was outstanding. It was well presented, logical, factual, used scripture well and drew pointed conclusions.

However the fact that his argument would hold up well against someone using the standard pretrib model does not make it correct. When you put the harvests in place based on the feasts his argument doesn't stand up and we are back to the true breaking point which is Verse 1 But of the times and seasons, brethren..........

Not........ but of the time and season, brethren

When you understand the harvests and know there is more than one.........that changes everything. I did think the video was excellent though.
 
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Choose Wisely

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IOW, how does one twist the coming to be meaning the comings, since that's what it would have to mean if there is more than one coming involved in all of the below? The same for thy coming, whose coming, and His coming, as well. So why doesn't any of the text below say something such as---at one of the comings, rather than the coming? An example---we which are alive and remain unto one of the comings(parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. It doesn't say that though. That is a good example of reading one's doctrine into the text.
Here is the only place I know of where He says something like that. This is GOD we are talking about. You have to understand that he tells you that you are not going to know when. The bridegroom is going to come in an hour you think not...........HE TELLS YOU THAT. You have to open your spiritual eyes and understand that. He does not want you to know. So if you think you have it all figured out and think it's post trib.......you would be wrong.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

So which of the following below are meaning the 2nd coming, and whichones are meaning the Pretrib rapture and why? Everyone of these either says--the coming, thy coming, whose coming, or His coming---so how can one possibly derive more than one coming out of all of these?
1----we which are alive and remain unto the coming(parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(1 Thessalonians 4:15)
Pretribulation rapture.....because it ties to.....
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



2----the coming(parousia) of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(2 Peter 3:12)
This happens at the end when new heavens..............

3----and what shall be the sign of thy coming(parousia), and of the end of the world?(Matthew 24:3)

This coming is the gathering. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. The harvest is the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth.....but not Israel....the protected remnant. Church is already gone pretrib. The 144,000 from each tribe is the first fruits of the harvest. Going to heaven for the marriage supper. Wrath of God for those on earth.

4----the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him---be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand(2 Thessalonians 2:1-2)
Same as gathering as above


5----the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming(parousia): Even him, whose coming(parousia) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders(2 Thessalonians 2:8-9)
When God returns with his saints on white horses


6----Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord(parousia)---for the coming(parousia) of the Lorddraweth nigh.(James 5:7-8)
I think this is referring to the gentiles and the 12 tribes that are scattered across the world.
James 5
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.


7----For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:27)
Same gathering as above. It is context of seeing Him and it is for the 12 tribes of the future


8----But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:37)
Pretrib rapture...........Noah is in the ark 7 days before flood.

9----And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:39)
Pretrib as above

10----the resurrection of the dead----in Christ shall all be made alive---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(parousia)(1 Corinthians 15:21-23)
The gathering..............It occurs at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets

11----Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming(parousia)?(1 Thessalonians 2:19)
Would apply to any coming

12----To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness---at the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints(1 Thessalonians 3:13)
Coming on white horses

13----I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:23)
The context of the chapter is the gathering

14----abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming(parousia)(1 John 2:28) [/QUOTE]
The gathering. Has to be because only those that are raptured will see Him pretrib, and they won't be ashamed.
 
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Truth7t7

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No such thing as a pre-trib rapture or a 1000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jesus hangs out with mortal humans dying physical death.

Jesus will return in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in Verse 34

"Eternity Begins" at the return of Jesus Christ.

There will be no pre-trib rapture or 1000 year kingdom on this earth.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7
Here is the only place I know of where He says something like that. This is GOD we are talking about. You have to understand that he tells you that you are not going to know when. The bridegroom is going to come in an hour you think not...........HE TELLS YOU THAT. You have to open your spiritual eyes and understand that. He does not want you to know. So if you think you have it all figured out and think it's post trib.......you would be wrong.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


1----we which are alive and remain unto the coming(parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(1 Thessalonians 4:15)
Pretribulation rapture.....because it ties to.....
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



2----the coming(parousia) of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(2 Peter 3:12)
This happens at the end when new heavens..............

3----and what shall be the sign of thy coming(parousia), and of the end of the world?(Matthew 24:3)

This coming is the gathering. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. The harvest is the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth.....but not Israel....the protected remnant. Church is already gone pretrib. The 144,000 from each tribe is the first fruits of the harvest. Going to heaven for the marriage supper. Wrath of God for those on earth.

4----the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him---be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand(2 Thessalonians 2:1-2)
Same as gathering as above


5----the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming(parousia): Even him, whose coming(parousia) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders(2 Thessalonians 2:8-9)
When God returns with his saints on white horses


6----Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord(parousia)---for the coming(parousia) of the Lorddraweth nigh.(James 5:7-8)
I think this is referring to the gentiles and the 12 tribes that are scattered across the world.
James 5
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.


7----For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:27)
Same gathering as above. It is context of seeing Him and it is for the 12 tribes of the future


8----But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:37)
Pretrib rapture...........Noah is in the ark 7 days before flood.

9----And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:39)
Pretrib as above

10----the resurrection of the dead----in Christ shall all be made alive---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(parousia)(1 Corinthians 15:21-23)
The gathering..............It occurs at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets

11----Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming(parousia)?(1 Thessalonians 2:19)
Would apply to any coming

12----To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness---at the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints(1 Thessalonians 3:13)
Coming on white horses

13----I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming(parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:23)
The context of the chapter is the gathering

14----abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming(parousia)(1 John 2:28)
The gathering. Has to be because only those that are raptured will see Him pretrib, and they won't be ashamed.
 
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BABerean2

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I watched the video and thought it was outstanding. It was well presented, logical, factual, used scripture well and drew pointed conclusions.

However the fact that his argument would hold up well against someone using the standard pretrib model does not make it correct. When you put the harvests in place based on the feasts his argument doesn't stand up and we are back to the true breaking point which is Verse 1 But of the times and seasons, brethren..........

Not........ but of the time and season, brethren

When you understand the harvests and know there is more than one.........that changes everything. I did think the video was excellent though.

The man who produced the video is the son of a preacher.
His name is Steven Straub.

At one time he believed in the pretrib doctrine but later changed his mind because he could not get the doctrine to match up with his Bible.

He wrote a book titled "Changed", which explains why he later changed his mind.
At one time the book was available online for free.


.
 
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Truth7t7

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 has a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ", Jesus clearly teaches this resurrection takes place on "The Last Day" in John 6:40, John 11:23-24

You disregard this fact of scripture, and wander about with a teaching thats not found in the bible, as you teach in error of a different resurrection of " The Dead In Christ".

I will follow Jesus in "The Last Day" resurrection of "The Dead In Christ".

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7
Hi Truth,
I'm sure you are confusing your verses. I think you are referring to this verse which regards the resurrection on the last day.

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


They are everywhere.

You should do a little honest research instead of passing along the same tired untruth.

Pretty sure it's the old wise virgin, unwise virgin story.

Amen
 
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John Prewett

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I believe brother Moore is on to something ....

" .... enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat ..........

Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where did the weeds come from?’

28 “He said to them, ... 'Let both grow together until the harvest,

and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds

first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”"

I submit during the soon coming New World Order,

the weeds and wheat will be permanently separated.

Weeds will worship Beast/image and take his "mark."

Wheat will not worship Beast/image and will not take his "mark".

Leading to beheading of the saved of our era.

"I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and the authority to judge was given to them.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded

for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshipped the

beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years

Revelation 20:4

I submit every Christian should and will aspire to "reign with Christ"

.... that's as good as it gets.

We should not be waiting to be "raptured".

We should be waiting to be empowered. as per Isaiah 40:28-31

We should be waiting for OUR day of Pentecost.

We should aspire to serve Jesus during the reign of the Beast right through the day of beheading. .... and we should look forward to the day of beheading ....


Russell Moore: We Are Living in a Pre-Christian, Not Post-Christian Society
 
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JacksBratt

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Ahhh.

Another thread of Pre Tribbers vs non pre tribbers.

I cannot say for certain either way.

I understand the scripture and how it is used for both.

I, myself, believe, based on scripture, that we will be taken just before the Anti Christ is announced and makes his phony peace agreement... or about that time.

Having said that.. and outside of scripture..... Nobody has told me

1/ What the Christians of this world are going to do for those seven years... with the reign of the anti Christs.... to survive... without the mark...

Can someone give me one (1) plan that they have in place for survival if they, we, are here?

2/ How many people would there be included in those that are raptured after the dead in Christ..in order to be instantly transformed and meet in the sky with Christ and the resurected previously dead?

How many do you think are going to survive those seven years without taking the mark?

I'm thinking they would fit on a small bus or in a mini van. If any.
 
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iamlamad

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The Lord Jesus Will Return "Immediately After The Future Tribulation" Matthew 24:29-31
This is a true statement, but does it preclude His coming on the clouds at some previous time - which He will - as shown in 1 Thes. 4 and 2 thes. 2.
 
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iamlamad

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Ahhh.

Another thread of Pre Tribbers vs non pre tribbers.

I cannot say for certain either way.

I understand the scripture and how it is used for both.

I, myself, believe, based on scripture, that we will be taken just before the Anti Christ is announced and makes his phony peace agreement... or about that time.

Having said that.. and outside of scripture..... Nobody has told me

1/ What the Christians of this world are going to do for those seven years... with the reign of the anti Christs.... to survive... without the mark...

Can someone give me one (1) plan that they have in place for survival if they, we, are here?

2/ How many people would there be included in those that are raptured after the dead in Christ..in order to be instantly transformed and meet in the sky with Christ and the resurected previously dead?

How many do you think are going to survive those seven years without taking the mark?

I'm thinking they would fit on a small bus or in a mini van. If any.

There is really only one scripture - no, two - that fits this time for believers: they will be overcome. That is God's word on this subject. The best thing then to do, if someone is a new believer at that time, is just turn himself or herself in and tell them, "I am a believer. Take my head, for I will never take your mark."
 
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iamlamad

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I believe brother Moore is on to something ....

" .... enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat ..........

Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where did the weeds come from?’

28 “He said to them, ... 'Let both grow together until the harvest,

and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds

first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”"

I submit during the soon coming New World Order,

the weeds and wheat will be permanently separated.

Weeds will worship Beast/image and take his "mark."

Wheat will not worship Beast/image and will not take his "mark".

Leading to beheading of the saved of our era.

"I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and the authority to judge was given to them.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded

for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshipped the

beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years

Revelation 20:4

I submit every Christian should and will aspire to "reign with Christ"

.... that's as good as it gets.

We should not be waiting to be "raptured".

We should be waiting to be empowered. as per Isaiah 40:28-31

We should be waiting for OUR day of Pentecost.

We should aspire to serve Jesus during the reign of the Beast right through the day of beheading. .... and we should look forward to the day of beheading ....


Russell Moore: We Are Living in a Pre-Christian, Not Post-Christian Society

There are two scriptures that fit, and both say the believers will be overcome.
However, a careful study of Revelation shows us that at the time the Beast will be enforcing the mark, God will be pouring out the vials of His wrath.

Sorry, my friend, but God has not and will not set any appointments for us with His wrath.

Are you going to set your own appointment?
 
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iamlamad

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Agreed. However these tribulations are a different story.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The pretrib rapture will occur and then the seals will begin being opened. The time of JACOBS TROUBLE....which is the 70th week of Daniel. Church is gone. Noah is in the Ark 7 days before the flood.
Your theory is good, but you are mistaken. The 6th seal begins the Day of the Lord and the 7th seal begins the 70th week. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. God is waiting for the full number of the church age martyrs. The believers are waiting for the rapture that will end the church age, and end the number of church age martyrs. These past 20 years had added a great number of martyrs!

The rapture will come soon, then the 6th seal will start the DAY.
 
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iamlamad

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 has a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ", Jesus clearly teaches this resurrection takes place on "The Last Day" in John 6:40, John 11:23-24

You disregard this fact of scripture, and wander about with a teaching thats not found in the bible, as you teach in error of a different resurrection of " The Dead In Christ".

I will follow Jesus in "The Last Day" resurrection of "The Dead In Christ".

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7
There are at least two groups that will be resurrected: the Old Testament saints, and then those IN Christ. Perhaps even another: those beheaded by the Beast. Who has written in the Word that they all happen at the same time? NO ONE. In fact, they will happen at different times.

Indeed, the Old Testament saints - including those living at the time of Christ - will rise up on the last day - the very last 24 hour day of the 70th week of Daniel - at the time marked by the 7th vial. This event will cause the world's worse earthquake - a quake so severe that the mountains will shake down into the earth.

I believe at this same time, and same resurrection, those beheaded will be raised, and at the same time, the two witnesses will be raised.

But before all of this, and before God begins to display His wrath, those "in Christ" will be caught up.
Therefore, you are partially correct, but so are the pretribbers correct. There WILL BE a rapture before the 70th week, but there WILL BE a resurrection at the last day. The scriptures show us both of these resurrections.

If you choose to wait for this "last day" resurrection, you will be overcome as God has said.
 
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iamlamad

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There's no escaping the aforecited tribulations. We're told to glory in them.
Then why did Luke write of God's escape plan - even using the world "escape?" If we have a choice of believing the word of God, versus believing you, I will choose the WORD and I will accept God's escape plan!
 
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iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
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We can give thanks for the spiritual maturity that results from the tribulations that each of us experience, and for the resources that God supplies to see us through them.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You have missed something: in Revelation John shows us that God is pouring out the vials of His wrath, while at the same time, the days of great tribulation are taking place: they are simultaneous.

1 Thes. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If you wish to choose the wrath, rather than His salvation through His escape plan, go ahead! Most of us will rather choose the escape plan and be caught up before His wrath.
 
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