Is God's love unconditional?

ClementofA · Jan 8, 2018

discipler7 said:
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PSALMS.5: =
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.

"In Psalm 5:5 we read that: “The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.”

Does God hate sinners? I thought he loved everyone?

A response:

A first look seems to suggest that the author, David, is implying that God hates sinners, but is that necessarily God’s view? For instance, we see Psalm 137:9 the author’s hatred of the Babylonians for their capturing of the Jews: “How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.”

Would that be God’s view? Does God condone dashing “little ones against the rock(s)”? No, the author is simply speaking his mind, and if that is the case there is no reason to suppose that David in Psalm 5:5 is not speaking his.

Second, there is a writing device called metonymy. This is a figure of speech that replaces the name of a thing with the name of something else with which it is closely associated. For example, when I say that “I really hate Shakespeare”, I do not mean that I hate his personality, I mean I hate his work, his poems.

A Biblical case in point would be when we read that God hates “a false witness who speaks lies” (Proverbs 6:19), if metonymy is deployed, then God hates the lies and the one who is doing the lying (the cause) is put in place of the lies (the effect). In Proverbs 6:17 God hates “a lying tongue.” Would that mean that God hates physical tongues? No, obviously not, it means God hates the sin that a tongue can perform.

It is crucial to bear in mind that the Bible writers often used figures of speech when they write. So, in this case (Psalm 5:5) God hates sin, but loves sinners, the figure of speech known as metonymy clears up the confusion. Just as God does not hate physical feet or tongues, he does not hate sinners. These nouns are put in the place of the things they cause – sin. It would also defy explanation to suggest that God hates sinners which is the very reason he had Jesus die on a cross."

Does God hate sinners (Psalm 5:5)?

mkgal1 · Jan 8, 2018

I'd originally posted this:

MKgal said:
mkgal1 said: ↑
Fire and brimstone PURIFIES....not destroys....making ALL things new.

....and then you responded with all these passages referring to brimstone and fire. I'm not sure what you understand purification to be?

In order for their to be resurrection of new life, there needs to be death....so, to my mind, if we stop at the physical death (for instance.....when we're looking at Jesus' death)....we miss the whole message of resurrection. Jesus conquered death.....death doesn't mean our destruction.

discipler7 said:
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GENESIS.19: =
23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. 24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
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MATTHEW.13: = 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
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REVELATION.9: = 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.
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REVELATION.20: = And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

....with Sodom and Gomorrah....we see in Ezekiel 16 that those cities will be restored:

As for your sisters, Sodom and her daughters and Samaria and her daughters will return to their former state. You and your daughters will also return to your former state. ~Ezekiel 16:55

SBC · Jan 8, 2018

98cwitr said:
This is a good explanation of what I mean (better word might be apathetic):

What Is The Opposite Of Love? A Bible Study

Apathetic....Yes, in some respects.
He loves them, even blesses them, yet can ignore them, and even has created a place for them....oops.

God Bless,
Hope your New Year is off to a Year of Blessings,
SBC

SBC · Jan 8, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Fire and brimstone PURIFIES....not destroys....making ALL things new.

Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.~Romans 13:10

Everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if salt becomes insipid, with what will you restore its flavor? Keep salt in yourselves and you will have peace with one another (Mark 9:49-50).

From this article: http://blog.adw.org/2016/07/jesus-mean-says-will-salted-fire/
Everyone will be salted with fire. Two images of salt and fire come together here, but the result is the same: purification. We have already seen how salt purifies. Fire does the same thing through the refining process. Precious metals come from the ground admixed with iron and many other metals. Subjecting them to fire purifies the gold or silver, separating it from the iron and other metals.

Both salt and fire purify by burning, each in its own way. Hence the Lord marvelously brings those two images together, telling us that we will all be “salted with fire.”

Indeed, it must be so. We must all be purified. Scripture says of Heaven, nothing impure will ever enter it (Rev 21:27). St. Paul speaks of purgatorial fire as effecting whatever purification has not taken place here on earth:

If anyone builds on this foundation [of Christ] using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—yet as one escaping through the flames (1 Cor 3:15-15).

Fire purifies, like gold in the fire removes all the impurities.

John the Baptist said;
...he shall Baptize you with the Holy Ghost and Fire.

Foreshadowed....when the three went through the fiery furnace and not hurt. And nope, I can't spell their names....lol

God Bless,
SBC

mkgal1 · Jan 8, 2018

SBC said:
And nope, I can't spell their names....lol

he-man · Jan 8, 2018

MostRadicalManEver said:
I keep hearing people say God loves unconditionally and i don't get it.
There are conditions involved!

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.
Belief is a condition. If they don't believe they are condemned already.
God pours out wrath on unbelievers! This sounds like a condition!

So, how does this teaching get so popular? Am i missing something?

here are a few verses on how the Lord is said to hate or abhor people.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5 (KJV)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 11:5 (KJV)

The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Proverbs 15:9 (KJV)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hosea 9:15 (KJV)

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6 (KJV)

For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalms 10:3 (KJV)

Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:40 (KJV)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (KJV)

You do not understand your own question. Do you even know what unconditional love means? If you had a child who was always making the wrong decisions all their life, wouldn't you still love them? When the child died would your love still be unconditional? Why would you think otherwise? Wouldn't you still pray that they might be given a second chance? May God have mercy upon you.

Grip Docility · Jan 8, 2018

ClementofA said:
I believe everyone will be eventually saved through Christ, as per Scripture, though many will have to go to the lake of fire first.

I hope and pray the same... with you.

discipler7 · Jan 9, 2018

he-man said:
You do not understand your own question. Do you even know what unconditional love means? If you had a child who was always making the wrong decisions all their life, wouldn't you still love them? When the child died would your love still be unconditional? Why would you think otherwise? Wouldn't you still pray that they might be given a second chance? May God have mercy upon you.

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DEUT.21: =
The Rebellious Son
18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.
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PROVERBS.13: =
24 He who spares his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
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2TIMOTHY.3: =
Perilous Times and Perilous Men
3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.

discipler7 · Jan 9, 2018

mkgal1 said:
....with Sodom and Gomorrah....we see in Ezekiel 16 that those cities will be restored:

As for your sisters, Sodom and her daughters and Samaria and her daughters will return to their former state. You and your daughters will also return to your former state. ~Ezekiel 16:55

Not true. False Bible interpretation.

To the latter Prophets(circa 800 BC), Sodom refers to the Southern kingdom of Judah(= capital Jerusalem) and Samaria refers to the Northern kingdom of Israel. This is different from the Sodom and Gomorrah of GENESIS.18:20(circa 2000 BC)
... When Babylon captured Judah, King Nebuchadnezzar exiled the Jews to Babylon as slaves. Later, when Persia captured Babylon, King Cyrus returned the Jews back to Jerusalem, who then rebuilt the Temple of God.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

ISAIAH.1: = 1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. ...

10 Hear the word of the Lord,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the law of our God,
You people of Gomorrah:
11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.
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EZEKIEL.16: =
God’s Love for Jerusalem
1 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem: “Your birth and your nativity are from the land of Canaan; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. ...

44 “Indeed everyone who quotes proverbs will use this proverb against you: ‘Like mother, like daughter!’ 45 You are your mother’s daughter, loathing husband and children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children; your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.

46 “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters. 47 You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.

48 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

51 “Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. 52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.

53 “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them.

SBC · Jan 9, 2018

MostRadicalManEver said:
I keep hearing people say God loves unconditionally and i don't get it.
There are conditions involved!

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.
Belief is a condition. If they don't believe they are condemned already.
God pours out wrath on unbelievers! This sounds like a condition!

So, how does this teaching get so popular? Am i missing something?

here are a few verses on how the Lord is said to hate or abhor people.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5 (KJV)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 11:5 (KJV)

The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Proverbs 15:9 (KJV)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hosea 9:15 (KJV)

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6 (KJV)

For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalms 10:3 (KJV)

Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:40 (KJV)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (KJV)

Examine what you are concluding.

IOW - What men DO, has no baring on Gods Love for them.

Perhaps a Natural example might help you understand.

Say you are a parent. Do you love your children?

And IF they - ignore you, misbehave, you punish them, you scold them, you withhold doing special things for them, you take away their phone, you "ground" them, you separate them from going to hang out with their friends, you separate them from you, sending them to their room, when they do well, do as you ask, you reward them, you want them near you, you give them special things....
Get the idea?

What in all of that has to do with NOT LOVING THEM? Nothing. You love them without condition. They can disappoint you, make you mad, even make you not like them, (which HATE, is a strong dislike), you can separate yourself from them, go for a drive, go to another room, But you don't STOP Loving them.

LOVE IS - doing what is RIGHT for the other person, regardless of the Consequences.

What a child is separated, is reprimanded, is scolded, is punished.....It is not for the JOY of the parent....it is DOING what is RIGHT for the child....that he learn what is RIGHT, so He has a foundation, for when he goes out into the World, and daddy is not there....he will know what is RIGHT, to AVOID, being scammed, corrupted by Others influence, WHO DO NOT LOVE HIM.

And the consequence of the Parent who Loves His child, and corrects His child?

Well... a kid will hate the parent, be mad, be angry, feel his parents are unfair, call the parent names, talk bad about his parents, feel like the parent just wanted to embarrass the kid, feel like the parent can't stand him... all the general things, that any kid might dream up.....BECAUSE the parent was diligent in correcting the child....BECAUSE he Loves him......Because the parent ALREADY KNOWS by experience, the World is cruel, corrupt, sneaks, lies, cheats......and the Parent is preparing the Child HOW TO DEAL with that, without BECOMING THAT.

God is no different, as we take our teaching FROM HIM.

God Loves ALL, and WANTS all to receive the wonderful gifts He has.....yet MANY of His gifts ARE reserved for those WHO DO RIGHT, ie Righteous. And gifts for poor behavior are withheld.

Just like a parent who may be planning and arranging to take his child to Disneyland...
That is time consuming, expensive, but yet the parent may really want to do something special for his child......

And say the child, sneaks out, gets drunk, is laying on the neighbors lawn in the morning.....and what? The parent now wants to take the kid on a special trip of a lifetime, that was to become a great memorable event for the kid with his family? Yeah...in a kids mind, rewarded for bad behavior.

It is about perspective, and what Love really means.

God Bless,
SBC

mkgal1 · Jan 9, 2018

discipler7 said:
This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you

You honestly see that as being descriptive of God's Love? Do you have children?
This sounds to me like you believe God is the god of the Islamist extremists.

Like I posted earlier, people can look at the same thing and see different images:

---the Bible is no exception.

I'll repeat what I quoted from Fr Richard Rohr:

--------->In my forty-five years as a priest, I have found that one of the best things we can do to remove people’s ingrained inability to experience grace and mercy is to first clear away their toxic image of God. As I see it, there are two major obstructions that need to be removed. One is theological and one is more psychological.

Poor theology has led most people to view God as a sometimes benevolent Santa Claus or as an unforgiving tyrant who is going to burn us in hell for all eternity if we don’t love him. (Who would love, or even trust, a god like that?) Psychologically, humans tend to operate out of a worldview of fear and scarcity rather than trust and abundance. This stingy, calculating worldview makes both grace and mercy unimaginable and difficult to experience. We’ll spend several days looking at these impediments to receiving grace.

Love is the only thing that transforms the human heart. In the Gospel we see Jesus fully revealing this divine wisdom. Love takes the shape and symbolism of healing and radical forgiveness—which is just about all that Jesus does. Jesus, who represents God, usually transforms people at the moments when they most hate themselves, when they most want to punish themselves or feel shame and guilt. Look at Jesus’ interaction with the tax collector Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10). He doesn’t belittle or punish Zacchaeus; instead, Jesus goes to his home, shares a meal with him, and treats him like a friend. Zacchaeus’ heart is opened and transformed.

As Isaiah says of God, “My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways” (Isaiah 55:8). Yet I am afraid we largely pulled God down into “our thoughts.” We think fear, anger, divine intimidation, threat, and punishment are going to lead people to love. Show me where that has worked. You cannot lead people to the highest level of motivation by teaching them the lowest. God always and forever models the highest, and our task is merely to “imitate God” (Ephesians 5:1).~https://cac.org/retributive-justice-and-restorative-justice-2016-01-26/

"Looking at which Scripture passages Jesus emphasizes (remember, the Hebrew Bible is his only Bible!) shows he clearly understands how to connect the “three steps forward” dots that confirm the God he has met, knows, loves, and trusts. At the same time, Jesus ignores or openly contradicts the many “two steps backward” texts. He never quotes the book of Numbers, for example, which is rather ritualistic and legalistic. He never quotes Joshua or Judges, which are full of sanctified violence. Basically, Jesus doesn’t quote from his own Scriptures when they are punitive, imperialistic (“My country and religion are the ‘only’!”), classist, or exclusionary. In fact, he teaches the exact opposite in every case. This is hard to miss. And our job as Christians is to imitate Jesus!"

Jesus knows there is a bigger arc to the story, one that always reveals a God who is compassionate, non-violent, and inclusive of outsiders. (Such passages are already found in the Hebrew Bible!) ~
https://cac.org/jesus-used-scripture-2015-02-09/

mkgal1 · Jan 9, 2018

More on finding the "golden thread" throughout Scripture (to preserve theology):

--------->Woven throughout the Bible are what I called "the great themes of Scripture" in my very first cassettes in 1973. If you do not discern the great themes, you will confuse individual trees for the great big forest. You will cut the golden thread into disconnected strands and tie it into impossible knots.

It is vital to realize that no single passage of the Bible can be taken in isolation from the others. In one sense, the first books of the Bible were not completed until the last book was written. Each book has to be read in the context of all the others to be properly understood. If we do not do that, we inevitably sink into fundamentalism, basing far too much on single phrases and isolated sentences. Almost every church has done this to prove its preferred points. The fact is, if we simply go searching after "proof texts," we can assert anything we want from the Scriptures. In order to interpret each passage properly, the whole trajectory of the Bible must be honored. And surely this takes time, study, and experience. Heady seminarians (soon to be ministers) who have not yet loved or lost are hardly the best interpreters.

Franciscan theology teaches us that love must precede knowledge. We truly know only that which we also love. When we stand back analyzing and coolly calculating things, we will normally distort their meaning to serve our small egoic purposes. It is only in stepping beyond and outside ourselves and allowing another person (or text) to change us that authentic and new revelation can happen. Otherwise all that gets in is what we already agree with, and all growth stops. Overly defended people do not change, grow, or "realize" anything that does not confirm their illusions. What a terrible recipe for death!

Either you allow Holy Scriptures to change you, or you will normally try to use it to change--and clobber--other people.
~Google Groups

he-man · Jan 9, 2018

discipler7 said:
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DEUT.21: =
The Rebellious Son
18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.
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PROVERBS.13: =
24 He who spares his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
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2TIMOTHY.3: =
Perilous Times and Perilous Men
3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.

Luke 11:11; Luke 15:26-32; You mean you would not even give a piece of bread?

Grip Docility · Jan 9, 2018

“Greater Love hath no man, than He lay down His life for His friends”

He died for all of us! He counts all His friends and even when we act like His enemy!

Love makes all occur and God is the source of that love!

mkgal1 · Jan 9, 2018

Exactly!

---------->“You killed the Author of life, but God raised Him from the dead.” –The Apostle Peter, Acts 3:15

Golgotha is where the great crimes of humanity — pride, rivalry, blame, violence, domination, war, and empire — are dragged into the searing light of divine judgment. At Golgotha we see the system of human organization that we blithely call “civilization” for what it is: an axis of power enforced by violence so corrupt that it is capable of murdering God in the name of what we call truth, justice, and liberty.

Golgotha is also the place where the love of God achieves its greatest expression. As Jesus is lynched in the name of religious truth and imperial justice he expresses the heart of God as he pleads for the pardon of his executioners. At the cross we discover that the God revealed in Christ would rather die in the name of love than kill in the name of freedom. Our savior is Jesus Christ, not William Wallace.

The cross is both hideous and glorious, simultaneously ugly and beautiful. It’s as hideous as human sin and as glorious as divine love. It is a collision of sin and grace. But it is not a contest of equals. In the end love and beauty win. We call it Easter.

Jesus does not save us from God, Jesus reveals God as savior~Jesus Died for Us...Not for God - Brian Zahnd

discipler7 · Jan 9, 2018

Grip Docility said:
“Greater Love hath no man, than He lay down His life for His friends”

He died for all of us! He counts all His friends and even when we act like His enemy!

Love makes all occur and God is the source of that love!

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MATTHEW.7:6 =
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
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MATTHEW.10: = 16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.
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JOHN.17: =
Jesus Prays for Himself
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. ...

Jesus Prays for His Disciples
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. ...

Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

mkgal1 · Jan 10, 2018

discipler7 said:
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

I'm not sure what you're using this to proof-text...but it supports just what you're arguing *against*.

mkgal1 · Jan 10, 2018

Double

ClementofA · Jan 10, 2018

"The word “hate” in the Bible often expresses priority and preference, not emotional hatred...We know that in biblical idiom to hate can mean to love less...

By three names is this mount known: The mountain of God, ‘Mount Horeb’ and Mount Sinai… Why ‘The mountain of God’? (Exod. 18:5). Because it was there that God manifested His Godhead. And Sinai?

Because [it was on that mount] that God showed that He hates (sane) the angels and loves mankind.

In Hebrew there is a play on words between Sinai and the word for “hate” which is sane’. The footnote in the Soncino edition explains the saying that God hates the angels and loves mankind:

“By giving them His Torah, though the angels desired it.—‘Hates’ is not meant literally, but simply implies that He showed greater love for man.”

—Soncino Exodus Rabbah, p. 571, on the midrash Exodus Rabbah 51:8

But these antonyms, ahavah (“love”) and sin’ah (“hate”), are also used with a special flavor in Deuteronomy 21:15-17 as meaning the loved one and the hated, that is, the less-loved one. In Greek, the same Semitisms are carried over in the antonymic use of agapan/misein with the same special flavor in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13 “where, in dependence on Dt. 21:15-17 and Ex. r., 51 they mean ‘to prefer’ (‘to be faithful to’) and ‘to slight’ (‘to despise’). We have here a Hebraism, as in the requirement for discipleship.” This last reference is to the two parallel lists of requirements for discipleship; Matthew 10:37 uses the formula ho philon huper eme, “He who loves… more than me,” while Luke 14:26 simply parallels it by saying kai ou misei “If any one comes to me and does not hate…”

The reference to Esau, father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters is not one of psychological hatred, but one of preference, temporary disregard for higher purposes, and exclusive separation.

In the case of Jacob and Esau, the love of God signaled an election and call for service (“To be a blessing to all the nations”) that had not come to Esau. But Esau was not hated as God held evil in contempt, for Esau was the object of deliverance in the end times in Amos 9:12 and Obadiah 19-21.

—Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. [President Emeritus of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Massachusetts], Toward Old Testament Ethics (Grand Rapids MI: Zondervan, 1983), p. 252. The original Hebrew and Greek fonts have been transliterated on this page for the web."

Did Jesus teach his disciples to hate their parents? - Jews for Jesus

Grip Docility · Jan 10, 2018

discipler7 said:
.
MATTHEW.7:6 =
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
.

MATTHEW.10: = 16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.
.

JOHN.17: =
Jesus Prays for Himself
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. ...

Jesus Prays for His Disciples
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. ...

Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Matthew 15:27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

I’m getting the Erie feeling you may be “reformed”, or might hold some systematic theology that is similar to Augustine writings...

But... nevertheless...

Go and learn what this means... “He came to save sinners”... “He desires mercy over sacrifice”.., “Mercy triumphs over judgment”... “The one who shows mercy receives mercy”... “He who is forgiven much, loves much”...

Is God's love unconditional?

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

he-man

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

he-man

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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