Genesis 6:1-4 and Jude 6&7 what do these passages mean? Why should we care?

Postvieww said:

This type of union will not produce “Giants” or “mighty men”. One Godly and one ungodly parent will produce nothing but a child that may or not turn into a “mighty man”.

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This is a legit point. But let's do a little comparing with what Jesus said in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Apparently Jesus is meaning literally when He says----marrying and giving in marriage---that this was taking place upon the earth just prior to the flood coming upon them.

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


This seems to be speaking of marrying and giving in marriage. One is to actually believe that there were marriage ceremonies taking place between demons and earth women at the time? Imagine being at one of those marriage ceremonies and that you are the one performing them, and then you ask, Do you, you hideous looking demon creature, take this beautiful earth woman to be your lawful wedded wife? Granted, they probably didn't say things like that back then during the wedding ceremonies, but I think you should get the idea as to how bizarre this would be if demons were literally marrying earth women at the time.

DavidPT said:

This is a legit point. But let's do a little comparing with what Jesus said in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Apparently Jesus is meaning literally when He says----marrying and giving in marriage---that this was taking place upon the earth just prior to the flood coming upon them.

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


This seems to be speaking of marrying and giving in marriage. One is to actually believe that there were marriage ceremonies taking place between demons and earth women at the time? Imagine being at one of those marriage ceremonies and that you are the one performing them, and then you ask, Do you, you hideous looking demon creature, take this beautiful earth woman to be your lawful wedded wife? Granted, they probably didn't say things like that back then during the wedding ceremonies, but I think you should get the idea as to how bizarre this would be if demons were literally marrying earth women at the time.

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I am sure that you have seen the problem on this subject . Two words sum it up....."I THINK".

As close as I can understand the Scriptures they apply to the fallen Angels and demons as the same:

Revelation 12:7-9 .....
"And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

That does not say that those Angels are Demons, However; other Scriptures do lead us to understand they are:

Luke 11:18.......
"If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub."

The Scriptures refer to Satan's helpers as both angels and demons:

Matthew 25:41.......
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

compared to:

Revelation 16:13......
"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Even though I cannot give you any verses which say that Demons are fallen Angels these Scriptures taken together along with the description of the Angel opening the gate to the bottomless pit leaves little doubt in my mind that they are reference to the same.

Now, IMO, when this thought that demons or fallen angels, giants, Nephllian or Sons of God or what ever those who believe in these nonsense want to call them, sooner or later when it is given enough room to expand you will get something like this that is all over the inter-net...............

1. Aliens change their stories to delude man into believing their lies. One example of this is that before man had been to outer space or sent satellites there, aliens would claim to be from planets such as Jupiter in our solar system. As time went on and man learned more about our planets, we realized that no one could live on a planet like Jupiter, so aliens changed their story. Now they claim to be from other solar systems and star clusters such as Andromeda and Pleiades.
2. Though aliens are said to be advanced, it seems they need us for their survival just as fallen angels need human beings to prey on. There are various accounts of aliens taking tissue samples from humans, probing them, or impregnating women. This is the origin of the entities known as incubus and succubus.

From.......10 Reasons Why Aliens Are Actually Fallen Angels or Demons.

I am sure that you have seen the problem on this subject . Two words sum it up....."I THINK". post 704

Even though I cannot give you any verses which say that Demons are fallen Angels these Scriptures taken together along with the description of the Angel opening the gate to the bottomless pit leaves little doubt in my mind that they are reference to the same. post 704

Postvieww said:

Correct it does not, nor anywhere else, just as Genesis 6 does not say “sons of God” are Godly sons of Seth.




Opinion. Let’s look at the relevant scriptures.



Luke 11:18 does not mention fallen angels but only demons. It is true both fallen angels and demons fall under the label “evil” or under the “leadership” of satan but nowhere in scripture does it say that they are the same. I will list some of the reasons for my belief. I will just not offer opinion and move on.




IMHO taking Luke 11:18 which mentions demons and not angels and then taking Mathew 25:41 which mentions angels but not demons and trying to mesh them together is shaky exegesis at best. Now here is why.

1. Throughout scripture we find verses that refer to angels both fallen and Gods angels and other verse that refer to evil spirit, demons, or unclean spirits but never both in the same passage.

2. Why does scripture clearly call demons, demons (or other variations) and angels, angels. “I believe” it is because they do not, do the same things and are not the same entities.

Now let’s look at what each does in scripture

FALLEN ANGELS

1. Fallen angels in scripture seem to be of a higher order and responsibility in satan’s evil kingdom.

2. The one prince of the Kingdom of Persia in Daniel 10 required two angels of God to overcome his power and authority.

3. Some fallen angels that sinned are held in chains 2 Peter 2:4 while some are not Daniel 10:13. So I believe it is reasonable to say the sin that some committed is something other than the original rebellion or they would all be in chains. Just my opinion.

4. Revelation 9:11 Abadon is called an “angel of the bottomless pit” He is in charge of the creatures released by the angels of God in Revelation 9:1-2.



EVIL SPIRITS, UNCLEAN SPIRITS, DEVILS, FOUL SPIRIT, SPIRIT OF AN UNCLEAN DEVIL (“Demons” is not used in KJV which is what I refer to, but other versions do use the term.)

1. All of the references to evil spirit or spirits are Luke 7:21, Luke 8:2, Luke 11:13, Acts 19:12, Acts 19: 13, Acts 19:15, Acts 19:16,

2. The term “unclean spirit” is much more common in scripture. Matthew 10:1, Matthew 12:43, Mark 1:23, Marl 1:26, Mark 1:27, Marl 3:11, Marl 3:30, Mark 5:2, Mark 5:8, Mark 5:13, Marl 6:7, Mark 7:25, Luke 4:33, Luke 4:36, Luke 6:18, Luke 8:29, Luke 9:42, Luke 11:24, Acts 5:16, Acts 8:7, Revelation 16:13

3. I will not list all of the examples of the rest but the one common theme is that usually when a person is possessed and in need of deliverance they are possessed by multiples and not just one evil spirit.

4. I find no scripture to support multiple fallen angels possessing or seeking to possess anyone, they have their own spiritual body that can manifest in different ways and have no need to inhabit a human body.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

There are celestial beings with celestial bodies, unclean spirits have no body of their own.

5. Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

These “devils” 1. Recognized verbally Jesus was the Son of God and asked to be cast into the swine (in my opinion) because they had no body of their own. They also recognized there was a time they would finally be tormented . Their place of domain is not torment in hell or in chains at this time.

6. New Testament scripture gives believers in Christ authority over evils spirits to cast them out no such authority is found in scripture over fallen angels.


This is part of why I believe fallen angels and evil spirits are not the same entities. I have laid out many reasons I do not just declare it so and move on. Feel free to disagree, many do, no problem. But I prefer a sound scriptural basis not just verse or two as proof text with little or no reasoning.

Major1 I don’t expect you to ever agree with me on any of this. I just post my beliefs with the WHYS and let people decide for themselves what they want to believe.

I have posted this before and will do so again:

A preacher friend told me once when discussing this very issue “I cannot with scripture disprove anything you have said but I CHOOSE not to believe it”

I believe that is where we are. I respect you and your beliefs I just think you are wrong on this just as you think I am wrong. God bless

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I believe that is where we are. I respect you and your beliefs I just think you are wrong on this just as you think I am wrong. God bless.

Correct and I agree !

Major1 said:

I believe that is where we are. I respect you and your beliefs I just think you are wrong on this just as you think I am wrong. God bless.

Correct and I agree !

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Wonderful. I hate arguments.

Postvieww said:

I use the word “argument" in this context not as being combative but making a point.

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I understand. It was not thought of by me in a negative way.

On another thread, talking with someone else on a completely different subject, I posted this to the person I was involved with.

I post it again for you only to give you an idea, or something to think about on these cold days and not to correct you in any way.

May I say to you that I came to the conclusion a very long time ago on this subject of Bible interpretation that No-one is ever completely unbiased. MOST ALL people approach Scriptures with a pre-conceived agenda looking for a way to validate that agenda in the Scriptures. Then if they do not find what they want, they MAKE the Scriptures say what they want them to say.

That IMHO is the reason we see so much bickering and arguing over things that seem to be clear to some and not so clear to others.

IMO the best interpretation of Scripture is to allow Scripture to interpret themselves.

Therefore, the goal of interpretation is not to come up with the most unique interpretation which by the way are usually wrong, but to discover the original intended meaning of a passage the way the original audience understood it. The task of discovering the original intended meaning is called exegesis and I am sure you already know that.

The key to doing good exegesis is reading the text very carefully, paying close attention to the details it describes, and asking the text the right questions. This is critical to finding the correct interpretation. Bad interpretation results directly from bad exegesis.

I hope that gives you some thought as to where I am coming from on these sensitive issues and why at times I am so hard headed on some things.

Postvieww said:

Great Article!

Demons are the earthbound spirits of the dead giants [nephilim]

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The idea that the demons are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim is only drawn from the book of Enoch, which goes into great detail regarding the Nephilim.

That being the case, we have to remember that, while the book of Enoch is NOT a Biblical truth and is more Occultic than it is anything else and it is not the inspired, inerrant, and authoritative Word of God.

We should never base a belief exclusively, or even primarily, on extra-biblical literature. So, with no need to explain the existence of demons outside of the fallen angels, and with no clear evidence in Scripture for the spirits of the Nephilim continuing on Earth, there is no solid basis on which to identify the demons with the spirits of the Nephilim. While the idea is possible, it cannot be derived explicitly from Scripture, and therefore should not be considered the best explanation of the origin of the demons.

Recommended Resource: Angels: Elect & Evil by C. Fred Dickason

Postvieww said:

You have been very clear about your belief on this overall topic, but not as clear when the difference between fallen Angels and demons has in detail been pointed out on this thread and you hardly address it.

You are 100% correct there is no scripture that clearly states the “disembodied spirits of the Nephilim” are demons but on the other hand there is no scripture that says fallen angels are the same as demons. What we do find in scripture is wealth of information on characteristics of demons which cannot be connect by scripture to the information we have about angels both fallen and good.

Your statement:

“So, with no need to explain the existence of demons outside of the fallen angels, and with no clear evidence in Scripture for the spirits of the Nephilim continuing on Earth, there is no solid basis on which to identify the demons with the spirits of the Nephilim.”

Your above statement is entirely opinion and requires your explanation of demons to lend credibility to your whole view of the matter. You have no evidence in scripture just the assumption that fallen angels are the same as demons.

We really do not need the book of Enoch to learn about the topic of this thread. Just assuming fallen angels are demons just because one has no better explanation IMHO is very weak given the wealth of information that we do have.

Thanks for your faithful attention to stand against this teaching, my only request is that you answer a few of the questions raised on the differences of angels and demons before you take your victory lap on this thread? Post #706 would be a good place to start.

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An answer to post # 706 is not possible. It is only a very long dissertation on why you believe what you believe on demons and fallen angels and there is actually NO question posed.

If you would like to shorten your request to ONE thing then I would be able to address it.

All I can say to you is that the only reason you have the opinion that you do of demons and fallen angels is because you accept the book of Enoch as Bible truth and I do not.

YOU have accepted the opinions In the book of Enoch "Demons" are explained as disembodied spirits of the Nephilim or hybrids of the fallen angels mixed with the seed of men. While "fallen angels" have their own bodies and do not die as hybrids do/can.

Now if we remove all the bluster and thinking and get right down to the bottom line, that is the only reason you accept Enoch. IT Validates your preconceived, yet unbiblical view of what you and some others who have views of conspiracies theories have.

Now, as best as I can, and without any disrespect to you, I say to you that it will make NO difference to YOU what I say about this, neither will it matter how many Scriptures I post to you. YOU have convinced yourself that what you want to believe is what is truth, so to answer any questions you pose just does not matter. Allow me to prove that you.

Rev. 12:9.........
"And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

This verse states Satan is the devil and the serpent from Gen. 3. Correct?????
He was thrown down to earth with his "angels."
The evil spirits or demons described in the Bible are angels who joined Satan in his rebellion against God.

Another helpful passage is found in Matt.25 where Jesus teaches.....
"Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Those with the devil are called angels, the same beings called demons or evil spirits in other passages. Therefore, we can conclude demons are fallen angels.

Then you asked me when did these angels "fall"? Does that mean you do not know?
Neither do I or anyone else. Al we can do is try to understand what the Bible says as t is the only source of truth.

The timing of their fall is not made exactly clear in the Bible. However, some indications are given. For example, Satan appears in the form of a serpent to Eve in Gen 3.
Since demons are fallen angels who joined Satan when he rebelled, they must have fallen prior to the events in Gen. 3.
Isaiah 14; and Exekiel 28 also mention Satan's fall as a past event.

In fact, it is most likely that this fall occurred shortly before the temptation in the Garden of Eden. Satan would have wasted little time after leaving God's presence to tempt those made in God's image. The best answer is that the angels who rebelled against God became demons/fallen angels sometime between God's creation of the heavens and the earth in Gen. 1:1 and Genesis 3.

During the time of Jesus on earth, much activity took place by demons. Still today, many reports are made of activities by evil spirits. Ephesians 6:12 clearly teaches our battle is against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Demonic spirits will continue to operate during the judgment of the tribulation period as well.

Postvieww said:

If you believe Revelation 12:9 happened back in Genesis we are off to a bad start. I do not believe Revelation 12:9 has happened yet. I am not alone in that nor did I get it fro the book of Enoch.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

How could satan be the accuser of the brethren before God or come before God about Job if this took place in early Genesis?



Yes.




Your opinion!

Please to not fret about disrespecting me. I do not see disagreement as disrespect.

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Wonderful. I just do not like to get involved in arguments and personal encounters and that has already happened here on this thread with someone else.

Consider this fact. Doesn't the name Satan mean “accuser.”????

Now in In Job 1:1 - 2:8 isn't it Satan who appears before God to accuse Job of ulterior motives in his worship of God. That tells us that Satan HAS ACCESS TO HEAVEN.
*(KEY)*.

In Genesis, he visited the Garden of Eden and tempted Eve. Is that not correct????/
Then if it is correct and it actually is, then does that not tell you that the rebellion of Satan had already taken place BEFORE creation.
THAT TELLS US THAT SATAN HAS ACCESS TO THE EARTH.*(KEY*)

Now in Rev. 12:9 it is my understanding that the ACCESS that Satan has to Heaven will be taken away at that future time which IMO will be in the middle of the 7 Year Tribulation period. From that point on Satan and his demons will only have access to the earth which is why there will be so much hell on the hearth.

Postvieww said:

Here is one point to deal with.

Is there not a major difference in the operation and powers of fallen angels some of which are over countries or areas such as in the prince of the Kingdom of Persia in Daniel 10 and the devils who possessed the man in Mark 5 who cut himself with stones?

Actually my dissertation was not very much longer than yours. Looks like we can both be long winded

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I agree with your thought.

But I can not agree that those differences in operations means that they are in some way different beings.

Consider Ps. 106:36
"And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them."

That actually speaks of the people sacrificing their children to demons which in Hebrew is sheddim – that translated into Greek is daimonion.

Liddell and Scott Classical Greek define it as such:

δαιμόνιον , τό , divine Power, Divinity, Hdt. 5.87 , E. Ba. 894 (lyr.), Isoc. 1.13 , Pl. R. 382e , etc.; τὸ δαιμόνιον ἄρ’ ἢ θεὸς ἢ θεοῦ ἔργον Arist. Rh. 1398a15 , cf. 1419a9 ; οἱ θεοὶ εἴσονται καὶ τὸ δ. D. 19.239 ; φοβεῖσθαι μή τι δ. πράγματ’ ἐλαύνῃ some fatality, Id. 9.54 ; τὰ τοῦ δ. the favours of forlune, Pl. Epin. 992d . II inferior divine being, μεταξὺ θεοῦ τε καὶ θνητοῦ Id. Smp. 202e ; καινὰ δ. εἰσφέρειν X. Mem. 1.1.2 , Pl. Ap. 24c , cf. Vett. Val. 67.5 , etc.; applied to the ‘genius’ of Socrates, X. Mem. 1.1.2 , Pl. Ap. 40a , Tht. 151a , Euthphr. 3b .

2. evil spirit, δ. φαῦλα Chrysipp.Stoic. 2.338 , cf. LXX De. 32.17 , To. 3.8 , Ev.Matt. 7.22 , al., PMag.Lond. 1.46.120 (iv A. D.).

The Hebrew word sheddim basically means:
1. havoc, violence, destruction, devastation, ruin

a. violence, havoc (as social sin)

b. devastation, ruin

This definition squares quite well with the meaning of Abaddon and Apollyon – destroyer.
http://www.douglashamp.com/are-demons-the-same-as-fallen-angels/