Michael Horton's thoughts on relationship with God.

Sola1517

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"As covenant creatures by nature, everyone has a relationship with God." (p.10, Introducing Covenant Theology by Michael Horton)

Do you agree or disagree?

I understand that God is everyone's creator, but it's one thing for someone to conceive a child and it's entirely different to father a child. If this statement is consistent is it not saying that God can be an illegitimate father to his creation?
 

msortwell

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Not knowing the context, I do not know if I agree with Dr. Horton's meaning. But it does seem that the Scriptures only leave room for two different "camps." Key to belonging to either camp is a person's relationship to God.

Romans 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. KJV

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us. KJV

Another way of phrasing it would be to acknowledge that a man is either a covenant breaker (that of the Covenant of Works as a personal transgressor and a descendant of Adam) or he is a covenant keeper (through Christ's perfect obedience, if indeed he is in Christ by faith in the gospel).
 
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"As covenant creatures by nature, everyone has a relationship with God." (p.10, Introducing Covenant Theology by Michael Horton)

Do you agree or disagree?

I understand that God is everyone's creator, but it's one thing for someone to conceive a child and it's entirely different to father a child. If this statement is consistent is it not saying that God can be an illegitimate father to his creation?

Dr. Horton is absolutely correct. Everyone is in covenant relationship with God with the associated blessings and curses. God upholds the life of all and his mercy is over all that he has made. And all his creatures are obliged to worship him and give thanks to him and obey him.
 
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Doug Melven

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"As covenant creatures by nature, everyone has a relationship with God." (p.10, Introducing Covenant Theology by Michael Horton)

Do you agree or disagree?

I understand that God is everyone's creator, but it's one thing for someone to conceive a child and it's entirely different to father a child. If this statement is consistent is it not saying that God can be an illegitimate father to his creation?
God is the Creator of our fleshly body, when we are born again our spirits are made new.
God is concerned with every aspect of our being, but it is only our spirit that is in complete contact with God. 1 Cor 6:17
 
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Sola1517

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Not knowing the context, I do not know if I agree with Dr. Horton's meaning. But it does seem that the Scriptures only leave room for two different "camps." Key to belonging to either camp is a person's relationship to God.

Romans 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. KJV

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us. KJV

Another way of phrasing it would be to acknowledge that a man is either a covenant breaker (that of the Covenant of Works as a personal transgressor and a descendant of Adam) or he is a covenant keeper (through Christ's perfect obedience, if indeed he is in Christ by faith in the gospel).
It says over the course of the book it would be further explained. I just thought it sounded really weird.
 
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Sola1517

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Dr. Horton is absolutely correct. Everyone is in covenant relationship with God with the associated blessings and curses. God upholds the life of all and his mercy is over all that he has made. And all his creatures are obliged to worship him and give thanks to him and obey him.
But you realize that none of those things are what it means to have a personal relationship with God?
 
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Tree of Life

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But you realize that none of those things are what it means to have a personal relationship with God?

Sure they do. Everyone has a personal relationship with God.

Believers personally acknowledge God, put their trust in him, pray to him, etc. God personally blesses them and cares for them.

Unbelievers personally despise and reject God. They ignore him. They refuse to trust him. God personally chastises, rebukes, and punishes them. But he also mercifully upholds their lives and gives them opportunities to repent.

All of this is very personal.

Now, even though unbelievers know God, they don't know him properly or in a saving way. They know him as a tyrant and as someone to be rebelled against. This is not true knowledge of God. But their relationship with him is indeed very personal.

It's not that some have a relationship with God and others don't. It's that some have a good relationship with God (friendship) and others have a bad relationship with God (enmity).
 
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Sola1517

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Sure they do. Everyone has a personal relationship with God.

Believers personally acknowledge God, put their trust in him, pray to him, etc. God personally blesses them and cares for them.

Unbelievers personally despise and reject God. They ignore him. They refuse to trust him. God personally chastises, rebukes, and punishes them. But he also mercifully upholds their lives and gives them opportunities to repent.

All of this is very personal.

Now, even though unbelievers know God, they don't know him properly or in a saving way. They know him as a tyrant and as someone to be rebelled against. This is not true knowledge of God. But their relationship with him is indeed very personal.

It's not that some have a relationship with God and others don't. It's that some have a good relationship with God (friendship) and others have a bad relationship with God (enmity).
The relationship between enemies is hardly a personal relationship at all. Why does Jesus say in the Gospels, "I never knew you;" [Matthew 7:23] if he had a personal relationship with them?
 
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Sola1517

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Wouldn't you agree that the Joker has a personal relationship with Batman?

That's what unbelievers' relationship is like with God. Very personal, although they are bitter enemies.
This is not a normal enmity, sinners are separated from God. Some permanently.
 
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The relationship between enemies is hardly a personal relationship at all. Why does Jesus say in the Gospels, "I never knew you;" [Matthew 7:23] if he had a personal relationship with them?

Why does he say "I never knew you" if he is the omniscient God?

His meaning is that he never knew them as his own - he never had a saving relationship with them.
 
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Tree of Life

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This is not a normal enmity, sinners are separated from God. Some permanently.

What do you mean that sinners are separated from God?

They are separated from his love and blessing. But they very much depend on God every moment for life and everything. "In Him we live and move and have our being."

By virtue of the Creator/creature relationship, it's not possible to be separated from God. We all have to do with Him. All things are from him, for him, through him, and to him. This just means that sinners are in an even more terrible situation, being dependent upon a God whom they hate and whose wrath they are constantly under.
 
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Sola1517

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Why does he say "I never knew you" if he is the omniscient God?

His meaning is that he never knew them as his own - he never had a saving relationship with them.
Okay, so what about this?
Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
That's the word for "knew" used in Matthew 7:23.
 
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What do you mean that sinners are separated from God?
Condemned to eternal separation in hell. In case you want to cite that one verse in Psalms, sheol=/=hell it's the grave.
 
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I'm very familiar with the word haven taken 3 semesters of Greek. What significance do you think this has here?
Okay. I think it means to literally have knowledge of, or else why would the translators translate it into that.
 
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Condemned to eternal separation in hell. In case you want to cite that one verse in Psalms, sheol=/=hell it's the grave.

I agree that sinners are condemned apart from Christ and that they are dead in their sins.

But they are still intimately connected to God. They are made in his image. They cannot escape his presence - even if they make their bed in Sheol (Psalm 139). His presence always makes itself known in their thoughts - even though the thought of God is torturous to sinners. He upholds their lives and they can do nothing without his permission. He watches over them for harm and destruction. Ultimately they will suffer for eternity in hell, being deprived of all good. But at least while they are on earth they are intimately connected to God. They cannot escape him, although they try with all their might.
 
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Okay. I think it means to literally have knowledge of, or else why would the translators translate it into that.

It can mean many things. To know personally, to have sex with, to be aware of. It's a very common word. Don't do theology at the word level. Do it at the concept level. Jesus' meaning is that he never had a saving relationship with these people.
 
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