God Protects The Believer During The Great Tribulation

1stcenturylady · Jan 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
I know that - hence my response

I would love to believe in a Pre-trib rapture, but it seems to me that it is pretty clear in scripture that the rapture is at the second coming. This is clear:

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

BTW, you boys are being a little nasty to each other. We are not suppose to provoke. So play nicely!

JacksBratt · Jan 6, 2018

DavidPT said:
Pretribbers expect someone else to have to face these things coming upon the earth, just not them. What should we make of that, especially the fact Pretrib is a false teaching?

So.... with that logic... All Christians, that will have eternal life, in paradise, in the presence of their Lord and Savior.....are, again, by that logic, expecting someone else to endure hell, "just not them".

That, my friend, is false logic.

JacksBratt · Jan 6, 2018

DavidPT said:
You're the one that lacks the maturity to admit that you are wrong, not I. I'm usually not 100% convinced about anything, but I am 100% convinced Pretrib is a false teaching though.

I'm not 100% about some scripture, and the timing of the Rapture is one of them that I cannot say that I am rock solid correct on.

What I am 100% certain of is that Christ is the Messiah and my personal Lord and savior.

With that said..... and the debates and commentaries that I have read, that are written by those far far more capable to debate this topic, than we are......I can totally conclude that there is no body who is certain of the timing and there will be no way of knowing until it happens.

Riberra · Jan 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
You mean the book called the Holy Bible that you left behind while seeking a false doctrine.
This is absolute foolishness , you don't really believe that nonsense do you ? Maybe if you believe amil is true then you follow that nonsense

Jesus tells us that the Abomination will take place before the GT and the Man of lawlessness will be the person that breaks the peace treaty ,
As soon as the 7 year covenant is confirmed then you know what will come next.

If Jesus said that you should be able to show the verses from the Holy Bible where Jesus said that ....

Riberra · Jan 6, 2018

JacksBratt said:
With this type of thinking... you are changing our salvation from a salvation due to the grace of God... to a salvation of "works" as we will have to be "tested" by the tribulation.

I agree, some, in this age, are put to that test. Why? I am not the one to ask as only God knows why each person is given the trials and persecutions, for His name sake, in their respective lives.

I do not hold to the belief that billions of Christians, who just happen to be born at the time in history, in which the GT takes place, will be forced to either endure the GT or take the number and mark of the beast.

This, in no way, meshes with "believing or calling on His name" to be saved.

This is, in every way, a salvation that could could have you, potentially "snatched from His hand"

Being SAVED does not mean that you will be taken out of the Earth before the Tribulation.
Being SAVED mean that you will not end into the lake of fire like the unrepentant sinners Revelation 20:15.

JacksBratt said:
Are you saying that some innocent young 14 year old girl who has prayed every night,since her salvation at 10 years old... who trusts Christ to never leave her or forsake her, is going to be forced to either be beheaded, watch her mother, father, brother, sister be beheaded in front of her....or take the mark....seriously?

You think that Christ is going to put the "baby Christians" to this test?

No, this is for those that refused to believe by faith, before the rapture, and now, now that they have seen the flight of the church and all the signs that it encompasses... have now, for some reason, seen through the "great deception" that will follow the rapture, and, by some miracle of Christ, still hold to faith in His name and will choose death... due to their eternal faith in their Savior, will not take the mark but will be martyred for their faith.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Matthew 24:13
13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Oldmantook · Jan 6, 2018

DavidPT said:
Unfortunately it doesn't matter what Revelation 13:9-10 says when one is not even interpreting the saints in Revelation 13 to be meaning the church. Clearly, and I have had numerous discussions with Pretribbers over the years, they simply do not take the saints to be meaning the church. To do so would mean that their Pretrib rapture theory is out the window, thus shown to be false. These saints apparently become saints from the left behind ones following the alleged Pretrib rapture.

For the sake of argument only, let's assume that's true. What would that logically mean? It would mean that once they become saints they are now officially part of the NT church, thus the NT church obviously goes through the great trib afterall. No matter how one looks at it, it's one contradiction after another if Pretrib is supposed to be Biblical.

Agreed that the pretrib teaching is unbiblical as they have to manufacture the term "tribulation saints" - a phrase found nowhere in Scripture in order to sustain their view. Many in the church will be martyred for the faith; others will fall away but Jesus referred to the faithful who compose the Church of Philadelphia whom he will keep/protect from the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole earth.

seventysevens · Jan 6, 2018

Oldmantook said:
they have to manufacture the term "tribulation saints"

They manufacture a term ? ^_^

what does the invoice say on how many tribulation saints need to be manufactured ^_^

You seem to be saying there will not be saints in the tribulation

Where is Lawrence Welk when ya need him

seventysevens · Jan 6, 2018

Riberra said:
you should be able to show the verses from the Holy Bible where Jesus said that ....

Seriously ? you need to start in Daniel , then Matthew , Mark , when you have accomplished that then we can educate you further

DavidPT · Jan 6, 2018

JacksBratt said:
So.... with that logic... All Christians, that will have eternal life, in paradise, in the presence of their Lord and Savior.....are, again, by that logic, expecting someone else to endure hell, "just not them".

That, my friend, is false logic.

It's not false logic if the time of the beast follows after they had already died. Not their fault they were not here to experience any of it. But when the time of the beast does come, and that one expects to be raptured off the planet just prior to this, so that others, just not them, get to go through the hell on earth right around the corner, that is different altogether.

The NT church can't be both in heaven and upon the earth at the same time. That is a contradiction. Some even claim the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world at this time. If that is the case, and assuming Pretrib, how would any of those left behind manage to become saints during the GT without the Holy Spirit's involvement?

Riberra · Jan 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
Seriously ? you need to start in Daniel ,

Daniel 9:27 have been fulfilled by Jesus.

The CONFIRMATION of the COVENANT have been made by Jesus but the Jews have rejected it ....by killing Jesus in the middle of the 70 TH Week.

Your gurus who promote the pre-trib rapture claim that will be the antichrist who will fulfill Daniel 9:27 prophecy ....proof that you have been fooled by false prophets....Matthew 24:11
Matthew 24:11
11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.

Oldmantook · Jan 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
They manufacture a term ?
what does the invoice say on how many tribulation saints need to be manufactured
You seem to be saying there will not be saints in the tribulation
Where is Lawrence Welk when ya need him

If you understood my comments, you would know that there are saints in the tribulation i.e., the church as the church is not raptured before the tribulation as pretribbers claim. There is no Greek equivalent in the text that translates to "tribulation saints" as that is a figment of the pretribbers' imaginations.

seventysevens · Jan 6, 2018

Riberra said:
Daniel 9:27
The confirmation of the COVENANT have been made by Jesus but the Jews have rejected it ....by killing Jesus in the middle of the 70 TH Week.

Your gurus who promote the pre-trib rapture claim that will be the antichrist who will fulfill Daniel 9:27 prophecy .

Wrong amil thinking is as wrong as it gets Jesus did NOT confirm any covenant of peace , Jesus was cut off(died on cross) before the covenant you speak of happened - 70th week is the LAST 7 years of human government !

seventysevens · Jan 6, 2018

Oldmantook said:
If you understood my comments, you would know that there are saints in the tribulation i.e., the church as the church is not raptured before the tribulation as pretribbers claim. There is no Greek equivalent in the text that translates to "tribulation saints" as that is a figment of the pretribbers' imaginations.

I never use a term of "tribulation saints" that is where you make assumptions as foolish as what you say now

Riberra · Jan 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
Wrong amil thinking is as wrong as it gets Jesus did NOT confirm any covenant of peace , Jesus was cut off(died on cross) before the covenant you speak of happened - 70th week is the LAST 7 years of human government !

You seem to forget that Daniel talk about the CONFIRMATION of A COVENANT that God have made with their fathers ....Abraham ...Isaac..

The Jews by causing that Jesus was put to Death have rejected the Covenant .

The prophecy of Daniel 9:23-27 have been entirely fulfilled in the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

seventysevens · Jan 6, 2018

DavidPT said:
I

The NT church can't be both in heaven and upon the earth at the same time. That is a contradiction. Some even claim the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world at this time. If that is the case, and assuming Pretrib, how would any of those left behind manage to become saints during the GT without the Holy Spirit's involvement?

If there is no more people to receive salivation and be "saved" as post tribbers teach what purpose would there be for the Holy Spirit to do if the temple of the Holy Spirit dwells in a believer and not unbelievers.
You seem to have a mixed up doctrine as there are born again believers in heaven now , makes no sense at all to think that all NT believers must all be at the same place at the same time , as martyrs die they go to be with the Lord , they do not all die at the same time

seventysevens · Jan 6, 2018

Riberra said:
You seem to forget that Daniel talk about the CONFIRMATION of A COVENANT that God have made with their fathers ....Abraham ...Isaac..

The Jews by causing that Jesus was put to Death have rejected the Covenant .

The prophecy of Daniel 9:23-27 have been entirely fulfilled in the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

You seem to to accept that the abomination Jesus refers to has not yet happened , your amil doctrine is not accepting all facts of scripture - you pick and choose what you want and don't want which is why it fails

Riberra · Jan 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
makes no sense at all to think that all NT believers must all be at the same place at the same time , as martyrs die they go to be with the Lord , they do not all die at the same time

The point is that only when you die [car accidents ...heart attack]your soul go to Heaven to be with the Lord ....you will not be taken to Heaven when you are ALIVE as your pre-trib gurus makes you believe.The idea that a whole generation of believers will be snatched to Heaven WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE exist only in sci-fi "religious" books like Tim Lahayes books.

seventysevens · Jan 6, 2018

Riberra said:
The point is that only when you die [car accidents ...heart attack]your soul go to Heaven to be with the Lord ....you will not be taken to Heaven when you are ALIVE as your pre-trib gurus makes you believe.The idea that a whole generation of believers will be snatched to Heaven exist only in religious sci-fi books.

You should try reading the bible , you might learn something
Jesus the pre-trib guru - yep

Riberra · Jan 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
You seem to to accept that the abomination Jesus refers to has not yet happened , your amil doctrine is not accepting all facts of scripture - you pick and choose what you want and don't want which is why it fails

The abomination who caused the DESOLATION was when the ROMANS destroyed Jerusalem and the TEMPLE and killed millions of Jews in 70 AD.

Doulosiesou · Jan 6, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I would love to believe in a Pre-trib rapture, but it seems to me that it is pretty clear in scripture that the rapture is at the second coming. This is clear:

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

BTW, you boys are being a little nasty to each other. We are not suppose to provoke. So play nicely!

Maybe trumpets are needed to wake people up.

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