Christianity's ability to improve lives

2PhiloVoid

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Eh, I'm not sure I why I should be tolerant of societies that treat women like property or execute people for stealing a loaf of bread. I'm not going to wax nostalgic about the good old days before the evils of British colonialism when Indian widows jumped on their husbands' funeral pyres.

Secularism is a self-contradictory mess. It does have some totalitarian tendencies, it's true, which when combined with its relativism, is pretty much incoherent. I'm not sure why some Christians defend the "right" to treat one another as terribly as possible, though. It's not like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights didn't come straight out of Catholic natural law. Thank you, Jacques Maritain.

Finally. Something we can disagree on. :rolleyes: ...I don't think UDHR came "straight out" of Catholic natural law. It may have been informed by it to some extent, but I don't think we should assume that the philosophical pathways are pure in this case. If anything, the UDHR represents a Western idea as to how the rest of the world should proceed "post-Holocaust," and it does this "without God" as a conceptual anchor. In which case, I have to say to all those who think the UDHR is a dream come true...."Good Luck!"
 
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Liza B.

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"You don't let me express my racism/fascism/homophobia in words and action against others? That means you are INTOLERANT, you hypocrite!"

No, it's Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance.

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

In short, if people try to invoke "freedom of religion" to support their unconstitutional discrimination against others based on race, sex, or orientation, they are violating one of the minimum requirements of an open, pluralist society.

Who are you talking to? Are you talking to me? Where did I advocate for "unconstitutional discrimination"?

If you care to dialogue with me, read carefully what I said and please do not just knee jerk to whatever quotes. It makes the dialogue so much easier when I'm speaking back to your ideas about what I actually said, and not what you imagine....whatever.
 
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Liza B.

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The problem is that one of the philosophies that will no longer be the default is the liberal values of Western Democracy itself. If you think it's just one approach among many, equally valid ones, you're already on shifting sands. Goodbye Catholic natural law, goodbye human rights.

It'll take a long time for the influence of Christianity to fade, but if and when it actually does, the West will fade with it.

This.

It's not so much that the secular Progressives are biting the hand that feeds them--though some are. They're starving the body of the hand that feeds them, and when that's done, they'll look around, mouths agape, and say "What happens"?

Nothing exists in a vacuum. Something else will fill it in. It won't be Utopia.
 
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Liza B.

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Perhaps the increasing culture of acceptance of suicide in Europe is an indication of where people are headed when they part with the facade of even a secular humanism. After all, for Camus, he accepted suicide as a serious option for the reality of human life. As you point out, Sartre was bleak about humanity's plight, and he didn't believe in sugar-coating that, whistling past the graveyard.

The sort of Untermensch that exists among the elites of Europe and the US is not up for creating a new humanity from the ashes, instead they prefer to go on pretending that human life is still inherently valuable and worth living. After you commit deicide, it's deeply inauthentic to pretend the values nurtured by religion really matter all that much.

Indeed. When "God is dead", the laws of the jungle will follow in very short order.
 
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Silmarien

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Finally. Something we can disagree on. :rolleyes: ...I don't think UDHR came "straight out" of Catholic natural law.

Well, "straight out of" in that I have discovered Jacques Meritain and I am in love.:flat4:

Very Catholic, very big on the relationship between Christianity and Western democracy, apparently very involved in the drafting of the UDHR.

It's always the French philosophers for me. I'm annoyed that I didn't grab anything by him and the other Thomistic personalists when I was in France!
 
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FireDragon76

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Absolutely not. It's called--wait for it--tolerance.

I can live with you living the way you do because I recognize that not everyone must live, believe, think and worship as I do. I might even think you're ethical, or not, but what of it? As long as I don't impose my views on your or don't impede your life, what's the difference?

But that's not the modern Puritan Secular Mob. The poster mentioned, for example, women's rights, prison systems, etc. If you don't line up with their belief systems, you are, at the very least, a Heretic. And being a Heretic, you deserve to have the mob ruin your life.

Puritans, just without the black dresses and white caps. It might be coming, however
.

The puritans never died completely. They just stopped going to church.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well, "straight out of" in that I have discovered Jacques Meritain and I am in love.:flat4:

Very Catholic, very big on the relationship between Christianity and Western democracy, apparently very involved in the drafting of the UDHR.

It's always the French philosophers for me. I'm annoyed that I didn't grab anything by him and the other Thomistic personalists when I was in France!

You crack me up, Sil! :rolleyes:

Well, if you're going to trend that way in your thinking, then you should also get acquainted with Charles Malik. I'd think he'd be someone to gain your attention as well. However, in saying this, I still think the UDHR will fail to come through on its directives ...
 
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Silmarien

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You crack me up, Sil! :rolleyes:

Well, if you're going to trend that way in your thinking, then you should also get acquainted with Charles Malik. I'd think he'd be someone to gain your attention as well. However, in saying this, I still think the UDHR will fail to come through on its directives ...

You know me well. ^_^

His wikipedia page reads: Heidegger, Heidegger, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Heidegger. I am very intrigued. (I imagine the UDHR will fail too, though.)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You know me well. ^_^

His wikipedia page reads: Heidegger, Heidegger, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Heidegger. I am very intrigued. (I imagine the UDHR will fail too, though.)

Malik was also trained in the Orthodox-Byzantine tradition. So, I'm sure you'll come to terms with that fairly quickly, won't you? ;)
 
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bhsmte

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Well, in the words of Jean-Paul Sartre: "The existentialist, on the contrary, finds it extremely embarrassing that God does not exist, for there disappears with Him all possibility of finding values in an intelligible heaven. There can no longer be any good a priori, since there is no infinite and perfect consciousness to think it."

The secular West has borrowed its moral values from Christian humanism. If we get to the point where the Christian understanding of human dignity is no longer the default position, we'll have also moved past secular humanism. Though this is assuming that the West really can move past Christianity intellectually--I'm not sure it's feasible. It may be too deeply ingrained at this point.

But basically, the Absurdists are right.

Ok, good ole Jean-Paul is entitled to his opinion, but why should I or anyone else believe it applies in the real world, in regards to how people live and quality of life?

Parts of Europe and Scandinavia have much lower beliefs in Christianity than the United States, and have higher quality of life indexes; lower crime, higher education, lower poverty, healthcare for all, etc..
So, why would the United States, with a much higher number of Christians, be falling behind in these important quality of life indexes?

One would think, likely the most important thing to have in life is good health and the United States overall, doesn't think it is important enough to provide this, for all citizens. But, if you are a life long criminal and on death row, they will make sure you have adequate legal representation.
 
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Silmarien

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Ok, good ole Jean-Paul is entitled to his opinion, but why should I or anyone else believe it applies in the real world, in regards to how people live and quality of life?

If you think he's wrong, you're welcome to explain why.

Parts of Europe and Scandinavia have much lower beliefs in Christianity than the United States, and have higher quality of life indexes; lower crime, higher education, lower poverty, healthcare for all, etc..
So, why would the United States, with a much higher number of Christians, be falling behind in these important quality of life indexes?

One would think, likely the most important thing to have in life is good health and the United States overall, doesn't think it is important enough to provide this, for all citizens. But, if you are a life long criminal and on death row, they will make sure you have adequate legal representation.

You do realize I'm a progressive and a Europhile, right? I don't understand why specifically American problems keep on getting brought up.

Europe has been shaped by 2000 years worth of Christian societies. Not always for the best, it's true, but you can't say that modern Europe has nothing to do with Christianity simply because it's become more secular. You're pretty much tossing around values that came out of Christianity as arguments against the influence of Christianity.
 
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bhsmte

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If you think he's wrong, you're welcome to explain why.



You do realize I'm a progressive and a Europhile, right? I don't understand why specifically American problems keep on getting brought up.

Europe has been shaped by 2000 years worth of Christian societies. Not always for the best, it's true, but you can't say that modern Europe has nothing to do with Christianity simply because it's become more secular. You're pretty much tossing around values that came out of Christianity as arguments against the influence of Christianity.

Typically, it should be you to convince me he is right, vs shifting that burden to me. I can quote anyone I like and say he is right and then push it to you to prove they are wrong.

I didn't say modern Europe had nothing to do with Christianity, I simply stated a fact, that parts of Europe and Scandinavia, that have high quality of life indexes, have much lower belief in Christianity and have for quite some time.
 
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Silmarien

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Typically, it should be you to convince me he is right, vs shifting that burden to me. I can quote anyone I like and say he is right and then push it to you to prove they are wrong.

I find what he says to be self-evidently true. I have trouble defending it because I have no idea how anyone could even disagree with it. It'd be a bit like needing to defend that "2+2=4," so if you think he's wrong, you need to explain why. It is an alien concept to me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Typically, it should be you to convince me he is right, vs shifting that burden to me. I can quote anyone I like and say he is right and then push it to you to prove they are wrong.

I didn't say modern Europe had nothing to do with Christianity, I simply stated a fact, that parts of Europe and Scandinavia, that have high quality of life indexes, have much lower belief in Christianity and have for quite some time.

...Denmark also has one of the highest colorectal cancer rates in the world. I'm sure they're not all that happy about ... that! o_O I wonder if there's a correlation between non-belief and health in Denmark?
 
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FireDragon76

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Countries like Mexico report a great deal of subjective happiness and yet they are not particularly irreligious. I'm not sure materialistic measures of wellbeing are the only ones to consider.
 
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bhsmte

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I find what he says to be self-evidently true. I have trouble defending it because I have no idea how anyone could even disagree with it. It'd be a bit like needing to defend that "2+2=4," so if you think he's wrong, you need to explain why. It is an alien concept to me.

And why do you find what he says to be self-evidently true? How do you verify it is true? Seems odd you struggle to defend it, if it is such an accurate description.

It appears you are saying as Christianity declines, than things will start to fall apart, because people will struggle, if they don't believe in a God.
 
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Silmarien

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And why do you find what he says to be self-evidently true? How do you verify it is true? Seems odd you struggle to defend it, if it is such an accurate description.

Because I think it self-evident that there is no overriding moral imperative if there is no transcendent source of goodness. Values are basically just conventional.

It appears you are saying as Christianity declines, than things will start to fall apart, because people will struggle, if they don't believe in a God.

No, I'm saying that the values of Western society are founded upon a specifically Christian understanding of human dignity and value. Rejecting Christianity means that the foundation of these values gets undermined. People who are raised in a Christian environment still generally hold to a Christian moral understanding regardless of whether or not they believe in God, but I don't know what sort of effect progressive secularization, if it occurs, will have on that. Maybe people will cling to the illusion of morality (at least when it's convenient to do so), and maybe they won't.
 
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umbrabates

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This made me think that Christianity needs to be protected from skepticism. Some people (like me) will naturally lose faith in Christianity, but ideally they should not cause others to lose faith.

I am no longer a Christian and I don't believe in a God that answers prayers or interacts with our world. However, like you, I absolutely cannot deny the life-changing power religions have over the lives of people, often for the better.

The change in peoples' lives are real. People swear off alcohol, beat drug addictions of the worst kind, give up ties to hateful and dangerous gangs. And the change seems to stick in most cases.

To be fair, it's not just Christianity. The recent death of Junaid Jamshed brings to mind his story. He reverted to Islam and ended a lucrative singing career because he believed the lifestyle was ungodly. He even refused future royalties from his work. He turned to an austere life and became one of the beautiful reciters of the Qur'an and an influential speaker before his death.

While I no longer share in the faith of others, I cannot deny the very real impact faith has on the lives of every day people.
 
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bhsmte

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Because I think it self-evident that there is no overriding moral imperative if there is no transcendent source of goodness. Values are basically just conventional.



No, I'm saying that the values of Western society are founded upon a specifically Christian understanding of human dignity and value. Rejecting Christianity means that the foundation of these values gets undermined. People who are raised in a Christian environment still generally hold to a Christian moral understanding regardless of whether or not they believe in God, but I don't know what sort of effect progressive secularization, if it occurs, will have on that. Maybe people will cling to the illusion of morality (at least when it's convenient to do so), and maybe they won't.

How do you know there needs to be a transcendent source of goodness for people to be moral? This may be self evidence to you, but simply stating it doesn't mean it is accurate. I see no reason to believe people can not be moral and be good, without this so called transcendent source you speak of.

It appears you are saying if Christian values are undermined, that is a problem. How do you know there are not values that will not improve upon just Christian values, or be just as positive? I think it also depends on the Christian and the denomination, to determine if something is good or bad.

I understand you have strong feelings about this and that is crystal clear. You could be right, but I don't see anything compelling here to verify what you state to be accurate, outside of what seems to be opinion.
 
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