Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

DavidPT · Jan 4, 2018

iamlamad said:
I think ONLY YOU know this. John surely did not know it, nor the Holy Spirit causing John to write. You are rearranging Revelation to fit your personal theory. Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology in Revelation will be immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong!

The days of GT that Jesus spoke of will come after the abomination. Jesus said it and Daniel 9:27 said it. The 70th week in Revelation goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16, IN THE RIGHT order. The midpoint of the week is marked by the 7th trumpet. In other words, the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven marking the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god.

Therefore, Rev. 6 and the 6th seal, where it is written that the Day of His wrath (Same as the Day of the Lord) begins. So the DAY begins some 3 1/2 years before the midpoint and days of GT even BEGIN.

Next, anyone and everyone that studies Revelation should know that no trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are opened - so that the book can be opened. You are trying to open the book and get to the days of GT (which comes after the 7th trumpet) before all the seals are opened - which is absurd because it is impossible. No trumpet will sound until all seven seals are opened because the trumpets are INSIDE the book.

All you are showing us is that you don't understand John's chronology. Most of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis. Up to verse 6 is John's chronology. But then, as a parenthesis, John takes us on a side journey down the last half of the week showing us what the Beast and False Prophet will be doing later on in the week. But when John writes of the 42 months of authority, that verse is very close to the midpoint in Chronology. In other words, Rev. 14 is still a midpoint chapter. It will be just shortly after the abomination and daily sacrifices stopped. Logic? Sorry, but you have used none. You cannot open the book before all 7 seals are opened! Have you ever tried to get out a DVD before removing that crazy thin plastic it is wrapped in? IMPOSSIBLE! Have you ever tried to read a book without opening it? IMPOSSIBLE! Stop trying to rearrange a book written in perfect chronology! There is no need! Please allow me to make a suggestion: dump your present theory of Revelation into file 13, and start over, forming your theory without rearranging the book!

This is just more nonsense and failed logic.

The 42 month reign of the beast is meaning the 2nd half of the 70th week. Revelation 13 shows some of the things taking place during that time. Some of which are, the world unites with the beast and worships it, the saints are made war against by it, and overcome. During the 6th seal it depicts men hiding in the rocks of the mountains, etc. Obviously then, and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, the events in the 6th seal are meaning after the events of the 42 month reign of the beast.

iamlamad · Jan 4, 2018

John Prewett said:
The Inquisitors who (after labeling them "heretic") demanded the torture and death of Jesus's people
were Trinitarians.
Trinitarian doctrine is the fundamental of the "doctrines of demons"
Trinitarians don't believe-heed scripture. They believe their interpretations of scripture.

The religious entity that iamlamad calls "THE CHURCH" is in fact the Great harlot family of cults.

"come out of her MY people"

You are lost in false doctrine. The argument of the trinity has been ongoing for centuries, but is current and proper doctrine of the true Church for centuries. One church council agreed that Jesus was God. Another and later council agreed that the Holy Spirit was God. They were right on both counts. I don't think anyone has ever argued that Father God seated on the throne is not God!
Do you have any idea what "the body of Christ on earth" is?

iamlamad · Jan 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
The 42 month reign of the beast is meaning the 2nd half of the 70th week. Revelation 13 shows some of the things taking place during that time. Some of which are, the world unites with the beast and worships it, the saints are made war against by it, and overcome. During the 6th seal it depicts men hiding in the rocks of the mountains, etc. Obviously then, and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, the events in the 6th seal are meaning after the events of the 42 month reign of the beast.

Rocket scientists know rocket science. But good bible students know you cannot open a book without first removing the seals that is keeping the book sealed.

claninja · Jan 4, 2018

John Prewett said:
Your obliviousness to the significance of the Vatican is astounding.

ps: The Great harlot riding the Beast is a great clue to the identity of the supreme Beast, so your failure to see the Vatican as the Great harlot contributes to blinding you as to the identity of the supreme Beast.

Then You are going to have to provide scripture that the great city is defined as something else, specifically between revelation 12 and 16.

Otherwise, the great city is defined in revelation 11:8.

Why would the definition of the great city change, if no other definition is given?

GUANO · Jan 4, 2018

iamlamad said:
It is easy to determine that the woman in chapter 12 is referencing Israel. The Messiah came out of Israel. And it was those living in Judea that Jesus told to flee when they saw the abomination. Mary was a Jew. God put Virgo in the sky to tell the story of Mary as a virgin giving birth to the King of Kings. There can be no doubt, the Dragon, the devil, was behind King Herod's attempts to kill the child before it could become a king.

Gah. Virgo was never recognized by the early Hebrews and astrology is expressly forbidden throughout the scriptures. =P

claninja · Jan 4, 2018

Postvieww said:
1. Utterly burned with fire Revelation 18:8

Jerusalem and it’s temple were burned by the Roman armies during the Jewish roman war.

Postvieww said:
Babylon is thrown down and shall be found no more at all Revelation 18:21

The people of Israel who were in the old covenantal relationship with God and were unfaithful, are no more. The temple is no more and has been gone for 2000+ years

Postvieww said:
The voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more in thee Revelation 18:23

In the old covenant, God was the husband of Israel: Isaiah 54:5.

Israel, but not Judah had been divorced from God: Hosea 1:6-8, Jeremiah 3:8. Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians: Micah 1

Judah then went into captivity by the Babylonians and would be trampled by gentiles from the time of the Babylonians until Rome

Faithless Judah was divorced from God and destroyed by the Romans in 70ad. Hence the voice of a bridegroom/bride is no longer heard.

Postvieww said:
How can we square that with Zechariah 14?

1. The Lord will smite the people who have fought against Jerusalem. Who is coming against a Jerusalem destroyed by fire?

2. Zechariah 14:11 tells us Jerusalem will be safely inhabited. That is in direct contrast with Revelation 18:8,21, & 23

3.Zechariah 14:16-17 tells us those left of the nations that come against Jerusalem will come to Jerusalem to worship the King, How can we square that with Revelation 18?

Jerusalem is not the Babylon of Revelation 18!

I would suggest Mecca, a much better fit.

I’m order to have a proper understanding, it’s important to know the difference between the slave woman (physical Jerusalem) and the free woman (heavenly Jerusalem)

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Galatians 4:25-26

David Kent · Jan 4, 2018

iamlamad said:
Question: how many times has Jerusalem been destroyed in scripture? More than once, I am sure.

Josephus gives a Short History of Jerusalem. He lists the number of times the city had been taken, but only two when it was desolated, once by Nebuchadnezzar and once by Titus. I can't look it out as I gave my copy to my grandson.

BABerean2 · Jan 4, 2018

David Kent said:
Josephus gives a Short History of Jerusalem. He lists the number of times the city had been taken, but only two when it was desolated, once by Nebuchadnezzar and once by Titus. I can't look it out as I gave my copy to my grandson.

You can download eSword for free online.
After that you can download the writings of Josephus in the "Resources" section.

.

DavidPT · Jan 4, 2018

iamlamad said:
They are deceived by not accepting their Messiah, Jesus Christ, the first time He came. They are still expecting His FIRST coming. The Beast will come in the place of Christ to give them their second deception: that HE IS THEIR MESSIAH.

Matthew 24:23 Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The elect in the above couldn't possibly be meaning the unbelieving Jews. The text is nonsensical if we insert them into the passage like such.

Then if any man shall say unto the unbelieving Jews, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very unbelieving Jews.

Since you claim to recognize nonsense when you see it, the fact you claimed my reasoning was more nonsense, failed logic, you should have no problem recognizing the nonsense in the above passage if the elect are meaning the Jews, the unbelieving ones.

They already don't believe the real Messiah is the real Messiah. That condemns them right there unless they change their minds about that. Something else to keep in mind, the text says false Christs, not false Messiahs, though obviously both are referring to the same thing. But to an unbelieving Jew they wouldn't be. They are looking for the coming of the Messiah, not the coming of Christ, since they already reject that coming.

David Kent · Jan 4, 2018

iamlamad said:
All you are showing us is that you don't understand John's chronology. Most of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis. Up to verse 6 is John's chronology. But then, as a parenthesis, John takes us on a side journey down the last half of the week showing us what the Beast and False Prophet will be doing later on in the week. But when John writes of the 42 months of authority, that verse is very close to the midpoint in Chronology. In other words, Rev. 14 is still a midpoint chapter. It will be just shortly after the abomination and daily sacrifices stopped. Logic? Sorry, but you have used none. You cannot open the book before all 7 seals are opened! Have you ever tried to get out a DVD before removing that crazy thin plastic it is wrapped in? IMPOSSIBLE! Have you ever tried to read a book without opening it? IMPOSSIBLE! Stop trying to rearrange a book written in perfect chronology! There is no need! Please allow me to make a suggestion: dump your present theory of Revelation into file 13, and start over, forming your theory without rearranging the book!

This is just more nonsense and failed logic.

I have shown that the 70 weeks was completed in the time of Christ. 7 Weeks from the publishing of the decree by Cyrus to the completion of the temple. 62 weeks from then to the Baptism of Christ, that is the Anointing of the Most Holy, ½ week to his baptism, and the last ½ week while the gospel was exclusively to the Jews by the disciples. You have never given a scripture to show that the 70 weeks is future, just following on from those who teach Jesuit doctrines.

David Kent · Jan 4, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You can download eSword for free online.
After that you can download the writings of Josephus in the "Resources" section.

.

Yes I have a copy on my online bible, but that doesn't give an index like the hard copy.

DavidPT · Jan 4, 2018

iamlamad said:
I think ONLY YOU know this. John surely did not know it, nor the Holy Spirit causing John to write. You are rearranging Revelation to fit your personal theory. Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology in Revelation will be immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong!

The days of GT that Jesus spoke of will come after the abomination. Jesus said it and Daniel 9:27 said it. The 70th week in Revelation goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16, IN THE RIGHT order. The midpoint of the week is marked by the 7th trumpet. In other words, the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven marking the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god.

Therefore, Rev. 6 and the 6th seal, where it is written that the Day of His wrath (Same as the Day of the Lord) begins. So the DAY begins some 3 1/2 years before the midpoint and days of GT even BEGIN.

Next, anyone and everyone that studies Revelation should know that no trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are opened - so that the book can be opened. You are trying to open the book and get to the days of GT (which comes after the 7th trumpet) before all the seals are opened - which is absurd because it is impossible. No trumpet will sound until all seven seals are opened because the trumpets are INSIDE the book.

All you are showing us is that you don't understand John's chronology. Most of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis. Up to verse 6 is John's chronology. But then, as a parenthesis, John takes us on a side journey down the last half of the week showing us what the Beast and False Prophet will be doing later on in the week. But when John writes of the 42 months of authority, that verse is very close to the midpoint in Chronology. In other words, Rev. 14 is still a midpoint chapter. It will be just shortly after the abomination and daily sacrifices stopped. Logic? Sorry, but you have used none. You cannot open the book before all 7 seals are opened! Have you ever tried to get out a DVD before removing that crazy thin plastic it is wrapped in? IMPOSSIBLE! Have you ever tried to read a book without opening it? IMPOSSIBLE! Stop trying to rearrange a book written in perfect chronology! There is no need! Please allow me to make a suggestion: dump your present theory of Revelation into file 13, and start over, forming your theory without rearranging the book!

This is just more nonsense and failed logic.

I do at least give you more credit than the Amils I typically encounter. At least you actually attempt to debunk what someone has submitted when you disagree with their conclusions. Doesn't mean you have actually debunked anything though, at least not as of yet. But I do give you an A for trying. And since I'm not the prideful type, and in the event you actually do debunk some of what I submitted, I will readily admit it and agree that your arguments are stronger than mine. But in the meantime I will just keep using what I feel is just plain common sense, that this or that can't precede this or that because of this or that, regardless of what order they are presented in the book of Revelation. Just because chapter 6, as an example, comes before chapter 13, that doesn't mean everything in chapter 6 precedes all of the events in chapter 13.

Truth7t7 · Jan 4, 2018

Douggg said:
Truth7t7, in Zechariah 14:5 when Jesus stands on the Mt of Olives and splits it in half - Zechariah expressing his awe of God says...

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

So the rapture must have taken place before the Mt. of Olives is split in half. Jesus will be coming with all the saints.

The Jews in Jerusalem who Jesus is returning to rescue there in verse 5, will be Christians at time, saying blessed is he who come in the name of the Lord. They escape by scurrying through the valley. They are not raptured - because the rapture will have taken place before then.

After Jesus has returned to earth, then he sends His angels out to gather the children of Israel, generically called Jews, back to Israel, in Matthew 24:31.

Well douggg, Zechariah 14

verses 1-4 show the battle of Armageddon abd "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ.

At This "Exact Point In Time" 2 Peter 3:10-13 takes place, as the heavens and earth are dissolved, the "New HeavenAnd Earth" are being revealed.

verses 6-8 eternal light, eternal river of life. Also seen in Revelation 22:1-5

verse 9 The "New Creation" is being revealed in the "New Jerusalem" Revelation 21:1-5
Notice "The Kings Winepress" the earth was reaped and the clusters thrown into the winepress of Armageddon "Past Tense"!

Verse 12 you see the last day judgment by fire, intense heat dissolves tongues, eyes, etc also seen in Revelation 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10-13

douggg the only survivors that are left have "Passed Through The Fire In Judgment" The Righteous.

All men will be judged by this "Last Day" fire as seen in Zechariah 14:12, 2 Peter 3:10-13, 1 Corinthians 3:13, Malachi 3:2, Revelation 20:9

Hope that helps, Zechariah 14 shows the final battle of Armageddon, The second advent, the last day fire in judgment, the eternal kingdom revealed.

David Kent · Jan 4, 2018

CHAPTER 10. THAT WHEREAS THE CITY OF JERUSALEM HAD BEEN FIVE TIMES TAKEN FORMERLY, THIS WAS THE SECOND TIME OF ITS DESOLATION. A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF ITS HISTORY. 1.

AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul]. It had been taken five times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventy seven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem
Josephus Wars of the Jews Book VI

Postvieww · Jan 4, 2018

iamlamad said:
None of these "great cities" are written of in the book of Revelation. Why would you go to another book when we find the symbolism explained in the same book by the same altar? Is that wise?

Why would you that say Sodom and Egypt is the same as Babylon?

iamlamad said:
Yes, the dragon is explained as the devil. Agreed. But the "great city" is also. You just don't want to believe it.

Only if you force Revelation 11:8 “Sodom and Egypt” to mean the Babylon of Revelation 18. John does call Jerusalem “Sodom and Egypt” but does not call it Babylon.

iamlamad said:
Question: how many times has Jerusalem been destroyed in scripture? More than once, I am sure.

How many times has Jerusalem been destroyed when scripture said ”utterly burned with fire” “shall be found no more at all”

iamlamad said:
Please tell us, if you were going to come before, in the place of the real Messiah, as if you were the real Messiah, to deceive the Jews, what city would you go to? There can be only one right answer.

Where does scripture say antichrist will present himself as Messiah to the Jews?

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Does this description in Daniel sound like antichrist is posing as the Messiah?

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Doesn’t sound like one posing as Messiah to me.

Tell me how does Jerusalem reign over the kings of the earth Revelation 17:18? Jerusalem is that cup of trembling, hated by most of the world. Jerusalem does not reign over kings anywhere.

Tell me how does Revelation 18:3 apply to Jerusalem?

How does Revelation 18:7 apply to Jerusalem?

Israel imports far more that it exports. Revelation18:11-13

You ignore or explain away all of this evidence for the phrase “great city” ? There is much more .

I am trying to understand your reasoning here but I cannot.

DavidPT · Jan 4, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Verse 12 you see the last day judgment by fire, intense heat dussolves tongues, eyes, etc also seen in Revelation 20:9

The fact I'm Premil this means I obviously disagree with you here. But I would be lying if I didn't at least admit that what you conclude here has crossed my mind a time or two in the past.

Truth7t7 · Jan 4, 2018

John Prewett said:
The Inquisitors who (after labeling them "heretic") demanded the torture and death of Jesus's people
were Trinitarians.
Trinitarian doctrine is the fundamental of the "doctrines of demons"
Trinitarians don't believe-heed scripture. They believe their interpretations of scripture.

The religious entity that iamlamad calls "THE CHURCH" is in fact the Great harlot family of cults.

"come out of her MY people"

John get off your false claims that everybody that does not believe as you do in "Dispensationalism" is a Roman Catholic Inquisitor torturing what you believe are the true christians.

Debate with scripture, not false non-scriptural claims.

There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.

There is no 1000 year kingdom on this earth in scripture.

The Church is Israel, Children Of The Promised Seed, Romans 9:6-8

Postvieww · Jan 4, 2018

claninja said:
Jerusalem and it’s temple were burned by the Roman armies during the Jewish roman war.

So you are saying Revelation 18 is past history? I don't think so, it is yet future.

Postvieww · Jan 4, 2018

claninja said:
The people of Israel who were in the old covenantal relationship with God and were unfaithful, are no more. The temple is no more and has been gone for 2000+ years

Revelation 18:21 is not talking about the temple it is talking about the city called Babylon whatever that may be. I see no real evidence other than the words “great city” to support that it is Jerusalem.

Postvieww · Jan 4, 2018

claninja said:
In the old covenant, God was the husband of Israel: Isaiah 54:5.

Israel, but not Judah had been divorced from God: Hosea 1:6-8, Jeremiah 3:8. Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians: Micah 1

Judah then went into captivity by the Babylonians and would be trampled by gentiles from the time of the Babylonians until Rome

Faithless Judah was divorced from God and destroyed by the Romans in 70ad. Hence the voice of a bridegroom/bride is no longer heard.

You are in the past Revelation 18 is yet future.

Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

Well-Known Member

Lamad

Lamad

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Continuing Historicist

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Continuing Historicist

Continuing Historicist

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Continuing Historicist

Believer

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Believer

Believer

Believer

Similar threads