Homosexuality and Holiness and Peace?

aiki

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Gossipers, adulterers and liars and cheats do not get treated like homosexual.

Like I said, this is because, in part, we don't have gossips, liars, adulterers and cheats literally parading their sin on the street, or forcing others to accommodate their sin.

Even murderers can be forgiven and re-integrated into the Church.

I know of reformed homosexuals who have been integrated into the Church.

They are seen as "the Other" and all of our fears are pinned on them.

Well, I think you ought only to speak for yourself here. I do no such thing with homosexuals.

We all gossip and lie.

Again, speak for yourself. We all sin, but this doesn't mean we all struggle with exactly the same kind of sins.

Our friend was abandoned by her husband and remarried. Liars and cheats can lie and cheat themselves into our church.

Sure. I've met more than a few in my own church. What does this have to do with what I pointed out about the overtness with which homosexuals promote their sin in the culture? I don't condone lying, cheating, adultery and gossip by pointing out the actions of homosexuals at large.
 
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Christie insb

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Like I said, this is because, in part, we don't have gossips, liars, adulterers and cheats literally parading their sin on the street, or forcing others to accommodate their sin.



I know of reformed homosexuals who have been integrated into the Church.



Well, I think you ought only to speak for yourself here. I do no such thing with homosexuals.



Again, speak for yourself. We all sin, but this doesn't mean we all struggle with exactly the same kind of sins.



Sure. I've met more than a few in my own church. What does this have to do with what I pointed out about the overtness with which homosexuals promote their sin in the culture? I don't condone lying, cheating, adultery and gossip by pointing out the actions of homosexuals at large.
They promote their culture because we treat them as if their sin were worse than others. If you say you don't have prejudice, it's sort of like saying you don't have sin.
 
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aiki

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They promote their culture because we treat them as if their sin were worse than others.

And how do you know this?

If you say you don't have prejudice, it's sort of like saying you don't have sin.

Every thinking and moral person is prejudiced toward something. I am highly prejudiced toward spiders and turnips, for instance. Both, as far as I'm concerned, are disgusting! I hold a strong prejudice against murder, and rape, and social progressivism, too. But I hold no such prejudice toward homosexuals. Some are friends of mine. They are lost in sin and darkness, headed for hell, and in desperate in need of the Saviour - just like every other unrepentant sinner.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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You know homosexuality within OT Israel was punished very harshly, don't you? (Lev. 20:13) Did the Israelites do wrong in this? They were following the dictates of their God, after all. According to you, however, they would be guilty of a "flesh reaction."



The "Spiritual perspective"? Paul laid out what it means to be "spiritually-minded" in Romans 8 and he warned that the carnal mind (out of which sin arises) is death. He went on to say that the deeds of the flesh, because they lead to death, ought themselves to be put to death (mortified) by the Holy Spirit. No where, though, does he speak of a mere "perspective" where a fear of sin is divorced from the minds of believers. Scripture warns us that sin always brings to us death of some kind. (Ro. 6:23) We ought then to fear it as one would a poisonous viper, or rabid dog, not because we are as believers still under its power, but because if we are not careful to guard against sin, it will bite or sting us and cause us (and others, often) serious harm.



And what is a "sinful way," exactly? Over turning tables and chasing folks with a whip like Jesus did? Calling religious hypocrites "sons of hell," or "the brood of vipers," or "white-washed tombs" as Jesus did? Giving over a sinning brother to the power of Satan like the apostle Paul did? Pronouncing the death of lying Ananias and his wife Sapphira as Peter did? Did these all "pile sin upon sin"?



One can call out sin without anger or wrath. One must, in fact, if one is to properly proclaim the Gospel to the lost. Repentance from sin was an integral part of the Gospel preached by Christ and his apostles.



This has avoided rather than answered my question.



Yes, they sometimes do. How about yours?


Yes, it is God who saves.

I don't know what you mean by "sanctification in this area."



Well, it would certainly be a different place!



An "unfair degree"? Is any degree of violence against any identifiable group that is not itself violent ever fair?



What the message of God is to the lost in our world has nothing whatever to do with how nations generally treat LGBT people. The Gospel does not exist in relation to how certain sinners are treated by other sinners.



John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Acts 3:19
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...


Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Good. We have discussed it, we disagree, but we have explained our point of view.

"I don't know what you mean by "sanctification in this area.""

This is the area that examines motives and finds otherwise okay interpretations and finds sin in them. It's best left for self examination as God's involvement in this area depends on what you have prayed in regards to self transformation and whether you meant it or not, some pretty dangerous prayers people sing on Sunday .. sometimes.

"An "unfair degree"? Is any degree of violence against any identifiable group that is not itself violent ever fair?"

Violence against a group is never right, I'm glad you agree on this point. I was reflecting on how the worldly system treats some groups worse than others, and how this carries over to the church. Since the church will have wheat and tares until the harvest, it is important to weed out the fleshly with a form of godliness.

I appreciate your dedication, I have several interpretations all on the go at once, I appreciate your disagreement as the church isn't really the church without the voice that you have expressed.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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And the end of chapter one and the start of two are one thought. I thought you would quote both.
[This is on Romans 1, er 1 and 2.]
One thought, huh? Too bad you didn't say what that "one thought" is. Perhaps you would do so now?
It would appear the last verse of Romans 1, "Who, knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them,"
and the second verse of Romans 2, "But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things," are PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THING. Perhaps that is what was being pointed to?

On the other hand, a fair amount of Chapter two seems devoted to a somewhat different idea, including 2:1. That men judging must be very wary that they themselves not be doing themselves what they are busy being concerned about in the other.

This of course is not the same as the strictures against sexual perversion given in Chapter One, but rather that our own actions be in conformity with the law of God, our duty being to ensure that they are and we are not merely hypocritical but actual doers of the law.
 
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aiki

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Good. We have discussed it, we disagree, but we have explained our point of view.

Uh, yeah, not really.

This is the area that examines motives and finds otherwise okay interpretations and finds sin in them. It's best left for self examination as God's involvement in this area depends on what you have prayed in regards to self transformation and whether you meant it or not, some pretty dangerous prayers people sing on Sunday .. sometimes.

??? Most of this makes little sense to me. Otherwise okay interpretations are not okay if there is sin found in them.

God involves Himself with us whether we like it or not and whether we have prayed for Him to be involved or not. And thank goodness He does! We'd all be in serious trouble if He waited on us to want His involvement. (see Eph. 2:1-3)

Does the parable tell us to weed out the tares? I don't recall it saying that...
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Uh, yeah, not really.



??? Most of this makes little sense to me. Otherwise okay interpretations are not okay if there is sin found in them.

God involves Himself with us whether we like it or not and whether we have prayed for Him to be involved or not. And thank goodness He does! We'd all be in serious trouble if He waited on us to want His involvement. (see Eph. 2:1-3)

Does the parable tell us to weed out the tares? I don't recall it saying that...
I used to be a Baptist myself, but that being said ... I did try to explain anyway because I would have wanted an explanation back then as well.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Jesus was surely the most "whole" person who ever lived but he experienced tremendous pain and brokenness. How accurate, then, is your description of wholeness?


Why does suffering pain for the sake of Christ, as many Christian martyrs have, require a loss of wholeness? And why is wholeness (whatever that means) even important? The Bible says Christians are "complete (aka "made whole") in Jesus Christ (Co. 2:8-10). This is as true in suffering as it is in comfort and ease.



Oh? Where do you read this in Scripture?



Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


Self-denial is fundamental to the Christian life. Jesus says here that one cannot be his disciple without self-denial.
Mat 9:22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said, Daughter, be of good cheer; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Jesus sacrificed His wholeness. Took our brokenness and gave us His wholeness or peace.

In scripture, Jesus used healing ministry to draw in faith and show them His compassion and God's will. The good news encouraged them. Just hardship as a call by itself and no healing and just words about peace in the next life and how many would begin to follow Jesus? Would you?

Something brings about an initial conversion.

The hope of peace immediately rather than just the promise of it much later is desirable. The Jews were hoping for the Messiah to come quickly and give them peace and security.

We need to taste God is good before we can really be strong through the bad, the hardship.
Psa 34:7 The angel of Jehovah encampeth round about them that fear him, And delivereth them.
Psa 34:8 Oh taste and see that Jehovah is good: Blessed is the man that taketh refuge in him. ASV

I have heard of a few martyrs for Jesus who never tasted the peace of the Gospel. For they were killed for disobeying orders, Roman soldiers, but it is a Gospel of peace. We should have peace and not have to go straight into persecution.

It is a Gospel of peace, a whole body, soul and spirit, conscience, and having our food and housing... is God's will, but the spirit and conscience come first and for our love of God, for some who are mature, we need to choose love instead of house or keeping our blood, and so take up our cross... hopefully we do not have to do this. Ordinarily we still should in peace time, love God first not pleasures first, not food, films, dates, partying, nice clothes, gems, making love, sports... deny ourselves, take up crosses in self discipline.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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[This is on Romans 1, er 1 and 2.]
One thought, huh? Too bad you didn't say what that "one thought" is. Perhaps you would do so now?
It would appear the last verse of Romans 1, "Who, knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them,"
and the second verse of Romans 2, "But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things," are PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THING. Perhaps that is what was being pointed to?

On the other hand, a fair amount of Chapter two seems devoted to a somewhat different idea, including 2:1. That men judging must be very wary that they themselves not be doing themselves what they are busy being concerned about in the other.

This of course is not the same as the strictures against sexual perversion given in Chapter One, but rather that our own actions be in conformity with the law of God, our duty being to ensure that they are and we are not merely hypocritical but actual doers of the law.
Rom 1:25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
Rom 1:28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

Rom 2:1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.
Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
Rom 2:3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
Rom 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God. ASV
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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As for all unrighteousness, I think it is largely potential, and everyone has a weakness in one area of sin in particular.

Also these people addressed were ancient pagans, and pagan converts to Christ, we need consider what this passage of Romans 1 and 2 meant to them and to discern what it means for us today.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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As for all unrighteousness, I think it is largely potential, and everyone has a weakness in one area of sin in particular.

Also these people addressed were ancient pagans, and pagan converts to Christ, we need consider what this passage of Romans 1 and 2 meant to them and to discern what it means for us today.
Seems "filled with all unrighteousness" could mostly be taken as an introduction to what immediately follows, that "all sorts of unrighteousness was found amongst them."

I am hoping that you have some such discernment and would share what it means for us today. I do wonder how you can speak as though there were only one meaning to all of both chapters - are not quite a number of points made in all of those 61 verses?
 
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aiki

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I used to be a Baptist myself, but that being said ... I did try to explain anyway because I would have wanted an explanation back then as well.

Ah, I see. You've grown beyond your Baptist past. Well done, sir. You're a special breed indeed!
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Seems "filled with all unrighteousness" could mostly be taken as an introduction to what immediately follows, that "all sorts of unrighteousness was found amongst them."

I am hoping that you have some such discernment and would share what it means for us today. I do wonder how you can speak as though there were only one meaning to all of both chapters - are not quite a number of points made in all of those 61 verses?
Gordon Fee wrote, reading the Bible for all it's worth, I must listen to his lectures on Romans for insight. I can revise my study of it with my college too. It will take weeks.
 
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Monk Brendan

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There would be no way to compile statistics on this becasue even knowing the parents for 40 years, the fact that they end up with a same sex living partner is not always proof of sexual activity. I repeat my claim that monogamous sexual activity is invisible to anyone not physically involved.

And that claim, sir, is totally incorrect. As I stated, both of my parents (after a long, long time of observation) are absolutely straight, and yet my brother is strictly homosexual. Neither of my folks had any tendency for the LGBT lifestyle. In my life, I have known several gay men who had straight parents. As a matter of fact, the clinical research has been quite the opposite of what you are stating.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Oh, I don't disagree with any of that. In fact that makes my point well.
The scriptural complaint was not against sexual orientation. It was about
lusting for people (or goats) one is not committed to.

There are LGBT people that simply are BORN that way. (And if God has made them that way, why not take a look at WHY homosexuality is considered a sin?
 
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aiki

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Mat 9:22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said, Daughter, be of good cheer; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

This is speaking of physical wholeness. Is this wholeness you're thinking of?

Jesus sacrificed His wholeness. Took our brokenness and gave us His wholeness or peace.

Yes, Jesus did sacrifice his physical wholeness (and spiritual, too) in order that we might be made spiritually whole. Amen.

In scripture, Jesus used healing ministry to draw in faith and show them His compassion and God's will.

Yes, I think these were elements of Christ's healing work. It seems to me, though, that the main reason he healed was to establish his right to speak with divine authority.

The good news encouraged them. Just hardship as a call by itself and no healing and just words about peace in the next life and how many would begin to follow Jesus? Would you?

The Good News first condemned the lost and then offered them eternal redemption. This was ultimately encouraging, I'm sure, but not at first, I think.

There is not much that is said about those Jesus healed. About only a few do we read of anything beyond their being healed. Most are simply healed and we know nothing more of what happens to them. It doesn't look, then, like healing and salvation necessarily went hand-in-hand. It appears that many people were glad to be physically healed and that was all they wanted from Jesus.

The Bible makes it clear that God has always known who would be His and who would not. It also makes clear that only those God convicts of their sin and whose understanding He illuminates to His saving truth can and/or will come to Him for salvation. It is not surprising, then, that no where does Scripture say that physical healing is necessary, or even helpful, in bringing people to a saving faith in Christ. God saves people through very different means.

Something brings about an initial conversion.

Right. That "something" is the Holy Spirit of God who is convicting, and illuminating, and drawing the lost sinner to salvation.

The hope of peace immediately rather than just the promise of it much later is desirable.

Sure. But the "hope of peace" is not, I think, physical healing, but the Person of Christ who is the Prince of Peace and our Saviour.

We need to taste God is good before we can really be strong through the bad, the hardship.

The Bible says that it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. But is that "goodness" physical healing? I don't see that spelled out in Scripture...The goodness of God is no more clearly and fully displayed than in the redemptive work of Jesus on the cross for lost sinners; that is the "goodness of God that leads men to repentance."

We should have peace and not have to go straight into persecution.

We have peace in and through Jesus Christ. If we have him, we have peace, no matter what our circumstances may be.

Ephesians 2:13-14
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace...


Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

1 Corinthians 1:3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

for some who are mature, we need to choose love instead of house or keeping our blood, and so take up our cross... hopefully we do not have to do this.

"Taking up our cross" is not martyrdom, but a daily dying to the desires of Self. Every disciple of Christ is to live a crucified life of self-denial:

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


Galatians 5:24
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Ordinarily we still should in peace time, love God first not pleasures first, not food, films, dates, partying, nice clothes, gems, making love, sports... deny ourselves, take up crosses in self discipline.

Amen!
 
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aiki

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There are LGBT people that simply are BORN that way.

Actually, the research is showing increasingly that homosexuality and the like are not primarily genetic in origin but psycho-social. Family, personality, cultural and social influences, various life experiences (particularly abusive ones) have more to do with the development of these...peculiar proclivities than anything biological.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Actually, the research is showing increasingly that homosexuality and the like are not primarily genetic in origin but psycho-social. Family, personality, cultural and social influences, various life experiences (particularly abusive ones) have more to do with the development of these...peculiar proclivities than anything biological.

Whose research are you reading? Because if you're reading from things like Charles Socarides, He couldn't make his own gay son straight.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Like I said, this is because, in part, we don't have gossips, liars, adulterers and cheats literally parading their sin on the street, or forcing others to accommodate their sin.

No, we elect them to be senators, governors, and so on, so that they CAN parade their sin on the streets as Grand Marshals of parades.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Gordon Fee wrote, reading the Bible for all it's worth, I must listen to his lectures on Romans for insight. I can revise my study of it with my college too. It will take weeks.
Start a new thread when you have figured it out.

Preferably in Christian Philosophy and Ethics.
 
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