Why Baptism is Essential to Salvation

LoveofTruth said:

But interestingly when Jesus told the disciples in Acts 1 that John baptized [past tense] with water, but ye shall be [future tense] baptized with the Holy Ghost. They seemed to still follow Johns water baptism as we see Peter did in Acts 10 with Cornelius. But if you read Acts 11 where Peter reverses the event with a Gentile Cornelius because he knew he was going to meet the circumcision group of believers he says that at that time Jesus reminded him that John baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. It was as if Jesus was showing him that he (Peter) did not need to water baptism the gentles. This would make sense because water baptism was part of Israels program in the old covenant.

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Being baptized by the Holy Ghost does not preclude water baptism.

manoffiji said:

Your statements are not supported by every single baptism in the book of Acts and 1 Peter 3:21 pretty clearly states water baptism saves you twice. Thanks!

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the book of Acts shows the Jewish reformation from the old covenant to the new and the work of God among them. It also shows the coming in of the Gentiles.

"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8:13 KJV) This had not yet happened even when the book of hebrews was written. In fact right up until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, there may have been a continuance in the law and temple worship etc. with some.

"8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."(Hebrews 9:8-10 KJV)

If some say, "well, I don't care about the facts I believe what i do, they did something in Acts so we should to"

Well, I ask them, "do you sacrifice animals again as the Jewish believers in Christ did in Acts 21 in the temple? In fact why don't you have an animals sacrifice as a figure of the reality of Christ one sacrifice." But you don't why? Im not saying that you should. Just that the reasoning for continuing an old diverse washings outward form from John the baptist in the old covenant would be a similar thinking to continuing the sacrifices again added to the faith in the one sacrifice of Jesus.

By the way John baptized in water for repentance, not for salvation.

I also would ask, "do you still believe that Jewish believers should be circumcised and keep the law and customs of the Jews as the Jewish believers in Jesus did for a time in Acts 15, 16, and Acts 21 etc.?

"Do you go to the temple as Peter and others did all through acts? where sacrifices , high priest, Levites and many rituals of the law were done constantly? Do you follow the dietary laws as Peter did in Acts 10?If not why not. If you use the thinking that says, Well, they did it in Acts so we should also"

FireDragon76 said:

Being baptized by the Holy Ghost does not preclude water baptism.

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Now there is "one baptism" in the new covenant that is saving and that saving baptism is into the body of Christ by the Spirit. For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. This is a spiritual work by the Spirit into the body of Christ. Then when we are in Christ he will baits with the Holy Ghost as John said and as we see in many examples in scripture.

FireDragon76 said:

Being baptized by the Holy Ghost does not preclude water baptism.

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Acts accounts would show you wrong. Even Peter said that it Acts 10 that the Holy Spirit feel on all those who believed and now who can deny that we baptize them because they were saved just like we were.

FireDragon76 said:

Being baptized by the Holy Ghost does not preclude water baptism.

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Paul said

"...besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."( 1 Cor. 1:16,17 KJV)

here we see that Paul did not practice water baptism as a part of his regular ministry. Yes he did condescend to the weakness of others as he idid when he circumcised Timothy because of the circumcision believers in Acts 16.

Paul said that water baptism is not part of the gospel as clear as day for those who have eyes to see. He redefined that very saving gospel to them in the 15th chapter, lets read ( look for water baptism, sacraments, circumcision, mosaic law, the Lords supper etc etc etc in this gospel, you wont find it for salvation)

The saving Gospel

"1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
"(1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV)

If any man adds anything to this gospel for salvation they preach another gospel. If they add water, circumcision, sacraments, the mosaic law sabbaths, the Lord's supper etc etc they add to the gospel and preach another gospel. Clearly then, Water baptism is not part of the gospel, and it is not for salvation.

Paul warned

"8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."(Galatians 1:8,9 KJV)

Cat Loaf You said:

I agree with what you said , my post about God who can't save kids in africa was sarcasm response to somebody because it's just plain stupid that water would stop God from saving somebody .

I understand how these kids feel so i'm helping them last time when mudslide happend .
Happy New Year to you too .

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Okay, got where you are coming from.

Actually, man can not bodily survive without water. Their demise, is oppression by and through failed "leadership", for centuries.

Africa is one of the Oldest Continents with some of the oldest countries in the world, meaning people have lived there since very ancient times. The land itself is some of the richest land in the world, full of gold, minerals, air, sunshine, fertile soils, trees, plants, animals, water.....everything God Himself provided for a man to sustain his bodily life.....YET....without doubt, full of some of the poorest, ill health, ignorant, helpless people, suppressed BY...corrupt leaders, corrupt governments....Truly sad.

God Bless to you and yours.
SBC

iwbswiaihl said:

You were right on the mark, until---------------you slipped off the edge to your personal view of the KJ which has no scriptural support, even the writer had mentioned in his page before the actual bible text started that his was only a translation, and many more would probably follow after his, but otherwise I would give your scriptural remark In fact one can see on a google search that about 96% of it reads just like Geneva translation before it. To each their own as long as they do not require everyone to follow in their personal views, then each tub sits on its own bottom.

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one time I taught a message in our home meetings way back about why I use the KJV. I did it rather unusually. I stood on a chair and used the New versions to preach deliberate heresy to them. I told them i was going to teach heresy and can you correct me. I did not believe what I was preaching but I used the new versions to show that Jesus was not God and that Christ did not come in the flesh and that the blood was not important, that jesus was in danger of judgement,and that Jesus had a human father therefore making him not God, that there is no way to get rid of certain kinds of devils, that the scripture writers were in error by things they said etc etc etc. And every time the only ones who could correct me were those with the KJV. It was a different way to approach it but the effect was real and helpful.

One consideration about the topic of the KJV is the early so called ante nicene fathers. here are quotes from them way back that we have in our KJV. Verses that were later taken out in the so called oldest manuscripts but that are in the manuscripts for the KJV. Just a thought there. This shows that the verses we have in the KJV were there all along.

A quick example is the end of mark 16. many corrupt versions say this is all doubtful the last part of that chapter. But the early so called "fathers" quoted it different places in their text way back before the so called oldest versions existed.

Boaz308 said:

Ok, so you said Peter was an apostle, of which no longer exist today. What Scripture do you have for that?

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Apostles do exist today and prophets. We read of the 12 and then another added in Acts who had to see the life of Jesus as a witness from John and on. But the apostles that were given AFTER the resurrection are mentioned in Ephesians 4:8-11. We read of Paul and apostle, Barnabas was a prophet or teacher then called to be an apostle in Acts 13, and 14 he was said to be an apostle with Paul. We read of Timotheous and Silvans as apostles in Thessalonians. We also read of Titus as an apostle, and other messengers of the churches these messengers were apostles as the greek shows.

Nowhere does it say they end. The apostles after the resurrection had a different ministry somewhat than the original 12 witnesses. The ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers is mentioned in Ephesians 4:11-14 and on

To all:

The doctrine of baptisms has been greatly misunderstood by many over the centuries, who have gone into their natural mind and have often not understood spiritual things and espescially the saving baptism. This has caused a great deal of confusion in the church, and brough great divisions and controveries into many gatherings.

A whole host of wrong ideas have developed around baptism, with a wide variety of thought, from the forms of baptism, with sprinkling, or pouring with water to the full imersion in water, to the baptising in water for salvation or not for salvation. The various forms of baptising in Jesus name or in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, infant baptism, believers baptism and replacing circumcision in the old testament with baptism, etc.

Jesus said that God seeks those to worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24). Jesus emphaisis in the new covenant was not one of forms and rituals, or diverse washings and carnal ordinances, but a spiritual one, for God is a Spirit. The saving baptism is a spiritual one, by one Spirit into the body of Christ and it is not a baptism in water.

I will seek, by the grace of God, to show that the true and saving baptism is not water baptism, but rather a baptism into Christ and where we put on Christ. That this is a spiritual work and not a outward ritual. And that water baptism is not needed in the new covenant.

Jesus said “preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believes and is baptised shall be save” Mark 16:15, 16, and 1 Peter also speaks of this saving baptism when he says “even baptism doth also now save us” 1 Peter 3:21. This baptism is a pure and spiritual baptism and is not an outward washing in water but an inward baptism as Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body” 1 Cor 12:13.

Paul had further shown the Corinthians that water baptism is not part of the gospel when he says, “besides [this talk of baptism], Christ sent me not to baptise, but to preach the gospel” 1 Cor 1:16?. Paul separeates the two and shows clearly that water baptism is not part of the saving gospel, nor are any other sacraments (so called), the Lord supper, circumcision, sabbaths or the Mosaic law, to be added to the gospel for salvation. If water baptism was part of the gospel, then Paul would never have said that he was NOT sent to do it, he would have magnified it.

Paul seems to have condescened to the Practice of water baptism, which had lingered from the time of John and possibly from other traditions among the Jews such as the Halkah law. But when Paul preceived the abuse of it he told them that he was not sent to baptise but to preach the gospel. He even had to remind the same church what the gospel is that he preached, for they may have been in danger of confounding the very gospel itself, he wrote,“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. And as we can see, no water baptsim was added to this gospel, to do so would be to make another gospel.

The Galatians were in danger of added works to the gospel, such as circumcision and in doing so that would make it another gospel. Circucmcision is an outward sign of an inward work, which some say water baptism is, and yet Paul says if they be circumcised Christ shall profit them nothin. Buy adding circmcision to the gospel, they would be debtors to do the whole law.

The saving baptism is a baptism into the body of Christ through faith in the gospel, and this is a work of the Spirit into the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:13. And it is a baptism INTO Christ and putting on Christ, not going into water and putting on water, “For as many of us as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ “ Galatians 3:27. This baptism is not a water baptism, but a far greater and spiritual baptism.

Jesus himself did not come to water baptise, and John said of Jesus when defining both of their ministries. “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” Matthew 3:11. And John said he must decrease ( or his ministry) and jesus must increase, (or his ministry). Jesus baptised none in his earthly ministry.

Jesus confirms that Johns water baptism was to cease in Acts after his resurrection showing that John baptised [past tense] with water, when he says, “For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” Acts 1:5. The saving baptism is a baptism into the death of Christ and burrial and ressurection, this is a spiritual reality in believers, and Paul taught this having revelation of the salvation in Christ “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”Romans 6:3. This baptism is as a spiriual inward circumcision made without hands, which no outward washing could do, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” Colossians 2:11,12.

The Jews for a time, after Christ death, followed many traditions and old covenant things such as circumcision, sacrifices, oaths, and the Halakah law for Gentiles, which required the converts to wash in water and be circumcised. This is clearly seen all through the book of Acts. But all the “ diverse washings and carnal ordinances were imposed upon them until the time of reformation” Hebrews ?? These diverse washings do refer to specific washings that the Jews did in the OT, but it also covers any washings of ordinances, in the outward form.

God in his mercy and grace allowed a transition from the old covenant to the new covenant for the Jews. But when the Gentiles came in Paul had to make issue and they were not to be under the old types and shadows of the diverse washings as John’s was. The early church even thought to circumcise the Gentile converts and bring them under the law again, but Paul and Peter and others rightly withstood this. Scripture teaches many baptism, “the doctrine of baptisms” Hebrews 6:2, And yet there is “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” Ephesians 4:5. So then the one baptism, must be the saving baptism into Christ by one Spirit and a putting on of Christ at the new birth, through the grace of God. This one baptism cannot be that of water rather than the baptism into Christ by One Spirit, for the two are different baptisms

An apostle is one sent forth, the 12 and Paul were sent forth by Jesus, and when
Judas was replaced the ones considered to replace him had to have witnessed the event of Jesus. Others can be sent by the church but they are not Apostles in the sense of those Jesus chose.

manoffiji said:

No sir, 1 Peter 3:21 says baptism saves you twice. Might need to open that one up again. Thanks!

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I don't see the "twice'" thingy.

iwbswiaihl said:

An apostle is one sent forth, the 12 and Paul were sent forth by Jesus, and when
Judas was replaced the ones considered to replace him had to have witnessed the event of Jesus. Others can be sent by the church but they are not Apostles in the sense of those Jesus chose.

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yes but the apostles sent by the church as in Acts 13 and 14 were called apostles still. And the apostles after the resurrection are called apostles Eph 4:8-11 KJV. Also in 1 Cor 12 I think Paul says God set some in the church firstly apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers.

Paul did not neglect baptism in his theology. How else would we make sense of Galatians 3:27? Paul left the obligation to baptized to others, for the most part. That doesn't mean he was somehow an anti-sacramentalist.

manoffiji said:

Thanks! I read most of the article and will pay better attention when I get home today. I especially liked when he said, "
When we read in the Bible about people becoming Christians, they believed, repented, confessed Christ Jesus as Lord – and they were baptized. This causes me to say that a person isn’t really finished becoming a Christian – they haven’t ‘sealed the covenant’ – until they’ve been baptized.

If someone is trying to find a way to justify notbeing baptized (perhaps finding a ‘loophole’ by pointing to other passages that state that we are ‘saved by faith’) and subsequently decides not to be baptized, I don’t think they – to use the word in a slightly different way – are acting in ‘good faith.’ For whatever reason, they are looking for something that is analogous to a legal loophole."

Thanks!

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Glad to be helpful.

LoveofTruth said:

yes but the apostles sent by the church as in Acts 13 and 14 were called apostles still. And the apostles after the resurrection are called apostles Eph 4:8-11 KJV. Also in 1 Cor 12 I think Paul says God set some in the church firstly apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers.

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That is true what you are saying about the original Apostles would still be the original Apostles, I did not say they were no longer called Apostles, I was only telling that those others sent would be apostle of the church, those sent forth.

iwbswiaihl said:

That is true what you are saying about the original Apostles would still be the original Apostles, I did not say they were no longer called Apostles, I was only telling that those others sent would be apostle of the church, those sent forth.

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and to the lost. Paul was an apostle, not of men or by man. I believe the gifts are for the church but also for the lost. God gives the gifts not man.

I think we are close on this

FireDragon76 said:

Paul did not neglect baptism in his theology. How else would we make sense of Galatians 3:27? Paul left the obligation to baptized to others, for the most part. That doesn't mean he was somehow an anti-sacramentalist.

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It is on your part to prove that Paul was speaking of "water" baptism in Galatians 3:27. I believe he was not but instead speaking of being baptized ( immersed) into Christ and putting on Christ. Paul said,

"26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."(Galatians 3:26,27 KJV)

Notice that they had to have faith in Jesus Christ. By Faith Christ dwells in our hearts "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;..."(Eph 3:17 KJV) and we "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Eph 4:24 KJV).

To have this faith where Christ dwells in our hearts and we in him and where we put him on, is to be baptized INTO Christ, not into water. No amount of dunking under water can attain to this.

I believe when pPaul speaks of baptism he is speaking, not of water but of a spiritual life in Christ where all believers are baptized ( immersed) into the body of Christ by the Spirit, We read this here

"13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,..."(1 Cor 12:13 KJV)

This would be the "one baptism" that saves. Not the water baptism of John. Which the Jewish believers practiced after Christ death as they also did many other aspects of the law and ordinances, even animal sacrifices all through Acts. The Jewish believers were coming out of the old into the new covenant, but it took time. God was gracious and the time of reformation was slow. We see this clearly in the book of Acts.

But when Paul uses baptism in Galatians and Romans I do not believe he is speaking of "water".

also Paul says that Christ sent him not to baptism but to preach the gospel. The interesting thing is what he said next. He said

"not with the wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect". Many try to use all sorts of human arguments to justify why water baptism saves and is part of the saving gospel, when it clearly is not. When Paul says lest the cross of Christ should be made of nine effect. That means that there is no works we can do to add to the work of Jesus on the cross and in his death burial and resurrection. Paul used the same warning in Galatians about some who wanted to circumcise them again. He says

"12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ."(Galatians 6:12 KJV)

compare with

"17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

This principle is the same as water baptism, no work of man can save us, and to add circumcision and water baptism to the gospel make the cross of Christ of none effect. The cross puts to death all works in the flesh.

an interesting study might be to take verses where circumcision is mentioned in the New testament after Christ resurrection and put the words "water baptism" in there and see how it sounds. They are similar in meaning ti many. Some say circumcision is a sign of the reality, and water baptism is a sign of the reality in Christ.

Lets see how they sound

Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ."


""12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be water baptized; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ."(Galatians 6:12 KJV)



Acts 15:1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.(Acts 15:1 KJV)

Acts 15:1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be water baptized after the manner of John, ye cannot be saved."


Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is water baptized, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Romans 4:12
And the father of water baptism to them who are not of the water baptism only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet not water baptized."

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither water baptism availeth any thing, or no water baptism; but faith which worketh by love.



or in the positive it works also

Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are baptized with the baptism made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

iwbswiaihl said:

This conclusion is not accurate, the baptism of the Holy Spirit applies to every believer at their new birth experience; 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. And Paul adds to this in Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. This is what happened those two times in Acts which showed the Holy Spirit came to those who believed before they were baptized in water afterwards and still happens every since that time.

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Neither of the passages you offered mention "Baptism with the Holy Spirit".

-CryptoLutheran