Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

Der Alte

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But no way He died on Friday either. How do you explain that?
All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on parasceue, which means "preparation" but it was and is the name of the sixth day, the day before the Sabbath.
There was no "high Sabbath" other than the weekly Sabbath when passover and 1st day ULB occurred on the Sabbath. The first and last days of ULB are called holy convocations, not Sabbaths. The preparation and cooking of food is specifically permitted on holy convocations. Thus there was no preparation day of holy convocations.

Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
 
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Der Alte

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The last supper was a significant event and held lots of symbolism. The bread had to be unleavened to represent the fact there was no sin (leaven) in Him. The unfermented juice was necessary to represent Christs pure life... blood that was unblemished to be a worthy sacrifice on the cross.
Jesus' last supper was just before Passover which is in March or April. The grape harvest in Israel is in July/August. They had no way of keeping fresh unfermented grape juice from the previous year. What Jesus drank and served at the last supper was real fermented alcohol wine.
 
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I've read the theory regarding the 2 different days for Passover before. I read the link you posted and there are holes all through it. One big one is the 72 hr theory and raising at 3 PM on Shabbat. We know for a fact (because we have 2 eyewitness on the road to Emmaus), that He dies on a Friday and raised on Sunday. Also, it was night time when He rose...read the verses regarding the guards at the tomb.

Well, the Lord our God is a God of order and not disorder. So I do not think Jesus was mathmatically dysfunctional to not mean 3 days and 3 nights. Three days and three nights = 72 hours exactly. 1 hour within a 12 hour day cycle would be based upon the amount of daylight available for that day. So an hour was not 60 minutes back in Biblical times (like it is today). Jesus gave us a clue to the standard of time keeping back then because He said there are 12 hours in a day (John 11:9). So the minutes in 1 hour would be less or more based on the amount of daylight for that day. For according to daylight savings for Israel back then, there was not perfectly 12 hours of daylight always. Yet, Jesus said there were 12 hours in a day. Also, 24 hours within a day would not change, as well. So there were 24 hours within a day back in Biblical times as there are today.

Anyways, in order to understand Luke 24:21, we have to look at the motivations behind what the two disciples are actually saying. Re-read this chapter and put yourself in the mind of a detective for a moment and think about the two disciples mood and what they might have been thinking. Put yourself in their shoes. If what you suggest is true, the two disciples could not think the prophecy for Jesus to rise on the third day had failed yet because the third day was not over yet. For if what you say is true, then they would be jumping the gun in being all upset before they could give the prophecy a chance to fulfill itself. They would at least give Jesus the benefit of the doubt in showing up on the third day to them at some point. But seeing Jesus did not appear to them on the third day of the Saturday Sabbath, they were having doubts about Christ's prophecy on the following first day of the week (Sunday). They were all sad because they were leaning towards the thinking that Christ failed to keep His promise because they did not see Him on the third day as they were expecting.

The statement in Luke 24:21 where Cleopas, a disciple says, "today is the third day since these things happened" fits. To say the "third day since" means the same thing as the "third day after". How so?

Well, if you were to look at the origin of the word "since" it has the word "afterward" in it's definition.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Also, if you were to look at the word "since" in the King James Online Dictionary, it also defines it as "after."

SINCE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

In other words, the Jews understood that "three days after" is the same as saying the "third day"; And seeing the English word "since" can be understood as "after", it is saying "three days after"

To put it to you another way, it would be like a person telling you that they were going to keep a promise within three days and they would fail to keep it. Let me give you an example: Let's say Rick told his older brother Steve (Who plays college football) was going to join the football team after graduation and that there was only three days Rick would have in order to sign up. Now, lets say Rick promised his brother that he was going to sign up at least by the last third day after graduation. That he was going to sign up sometime between these three days but he was going to absolutely do so by the third day as a part of his promise. Now, lets say Rick failed to keep his promise and did not sign up by the last third day for the team. The conversation between Rick and Steve could easily go like this,

Rick: "Steve, I hate to break this to you but I did not sign up on the third day as I promised." "Maybe I can talk to the coach and he can make an exception or something."

Steve: "Dude! Today is three days after all these things are done already!" "You can't sign up after three days!" "You know coach Brown will not go for such a thing and you know it!"

In other words, Luke 24:21 says the same thing.

Luke 24:21
"But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since [three days after] these things were done."

Let's examine this.

"But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel."

They had doubts. Why would they doubt if the three days was not over yet?

"Today is the third day since (after) these things have been done."

What things were to be done?

Well, one of the major things that needed to be done was Christ's resurrection!

For Luke 24:7 are the very words of Jesus that prophesied His promise to them. His promise was that He was going to rise three days later; And He kept that promise (Just not in the way they were expecting).

Summary: Jesus died on Wednesday afternoon and was laid in the grave as the annual Sabbath was beginning. He was in the grave Wednesday night, Thursday day, Thursday night, Friday day, Friday night, and Saturday day. Therefore, He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.

Side Note:

Oh, and here are a few Modern Translations that render Luke 24:21 a little more clearly.

Moffatt Translation–by James Moffatt “….but he is dead, and that is three days ago!”

The Bible in Basic English Version says, “In addition to all this he has now let three days go by from the time when these things took place;”

James Murdock Translation has it, “And lo, three days [have passed], since all these things occurred.”

The New Berkeley Version in Modern English– Gerrit Verkugl “Moreover, three days have already passed, since all these events occurred.”

The Syriac New Testament Translated Into English From The Peshitto Version — James Murdock “…and lo, three days have passed since all these things have occurred.”

The Syriac Reading can be confirmed by 2 of the oldest manuscripts in Estrangelo Aramaic: the Sinaitic Palimpset and the Curetonian Syriac.

ASV Luk 24:21 But we hoped that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yea and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things came to pass.

BBE Luk 24:21 But we were hoping that he would be the Saviour of Israel. In addition to all this he has now let three days go by from the time when these things took place;

CEV Luk 24:21 We had hoped that he would be the one to set Israel free! But it has already been three days since all this happened.

Lamsa NT Luk 24:21 But we were hoping that he was the one to save Israel; and behold, it is three days since all these things happened.

Interlinear Bible Hebrew Greek says the following.
But (4594) with all (575, 3739, 5023) these things (1096) third (235) this (1135) day (5100) comes today ( 1537,2257) since these things occurred(1839, 2248, 1096)

NLT (New Living Translation) renders Luke 24:21 as saying "three days ago." (Meaning, three days after).​

As for the testimony of the guards:

Scripture does not say they seen Jesus. They only seen the "Angel of the Lord" descend from Heaven to roll the stone away. This does not mean the "Angel of the Lord" needed to roll the stone away so as to set Jesus free. Remember, Jesus did not need to use doors or windows to enter a home. So He would have had no trouble phasing through the tomb wall late at night when the guards were sleeping. Granted, Jesus could have made Himself invisible to them if He wanted to. For at another time, Jesus disappeared into a crowd when the Pharisees were seeking to stone Him. But for the sake of argument, lets say Jesus was released when the stone was rolled away by the "Angel of the Lord." First, Jesus could have resurrected within the tomb before the time of when the stone was rolled away. Second, even if Jesus was perfectly resurrected at the time of when the stone was rolled away, Jesus would have left the tomb at the "End of the Sabbath." (Matthew 28:1). The Earthquake took place and the Angel of the Lord rolled the stone away before the "End of the Sabbath." This means that it would have been before our Saturday at sunset. So Jesus was resurrected at the latest on Saturday late afternoon. However, to perfectly line up with His death, Christ would have resurrected at 3:00PM.

Sources used:
Prophecy Truths -- 3 Days & 3 Nights pt 2
The Road to Emmaus-Proof to Support Easter Sunday-NOT!
 
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SkyWriting

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A few months ago there was a new thread about whether or not Jesus turned water into fermented wine, or grape juice. The poster claimed grape juice. Many disagreed. That post is now closed as it is old and had no responses for a long time. While I still believe the wine was fermented, it made me wonder about our Lord's Supper. Should that wine be grape juice or fermented wine (Mormons use water). What I found has to do with what kind of wine was used by Jews during Passover and the Seder meal. I was astonished to find it was grape juice, called "new wine." Here is something I just found and thought I would share. Note, this is ONLY at Passover, not for regular meals. There the wine was fermented.


There are two Hebrew used translated as "wine" in our English
Bible. The first word is the Strong's word (3196) and is the Hebrew
word, "yayin". This is alcoholic wine.

The second word is the Strong's word (8492). It is the Hebrew
word "tiyrosh". This is non-alcoholic grapejuice or sweet wine. This
is the type of wine that would have been used at Passover -
non-alcoholic wine. This kind of wine is often called in the Bible
"new wine".

While "Yayin" is declared "kosher for Passover" today,
Yeshua/Jesus would have partook of "Tiyrosh" at His seder. This is the
sweet non-alcoholic wine that is called in the Bible "new wine" and
"sweet wine". "Tiyrosh" is associated with the outpouring of God's
Holy Spirit.

The contrast between "Yayin" and "Tiyrosh" can be seen in
Joel. In Joel 1:5 it is written:

"Awake, ye drunkards and weep and howl, all ye drinkers of wine
(Yayin) ..."

In Joel 2:18-19, 24:

"Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea,
the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send the
corn and wine (Tiyrosh) and oil and ye shall be satisfied ... and the
floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine
(Tiyrosh) and oil"

In Isaiah 65:8 it is written:

"Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine (Tiyrosh) is found in the
cluster ..."

In Proverbs 20:1 it is written:

"Wine (Yayin) is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise"

So, we can see in these passages the contrast between
"Yayin" (alcoholic wine) which is used in a negative connotation and
"Tiyrosh" (non-alcoholic sweet, new wine) which is spoken of in a
positive connotation. Most assuredly, Yeshua/Jesus would have drank of
the "sweet wine" or "Tiyrosh".


There is additional examination showing that the fermentation
process was a parallel to being made clean.

I know a southern Baptist who looked closely into it
and got the answer he did not approve of, that fermented
wine was required.
 
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Are you arguing that Jesus and the disciples drank actual human blood??
I'll answer for him, ECR:
Living, deified, resurrected, ascended into heaven and at the right hand of the Father flesh and blood is being consumed through our mouths, into our own bodies. This Bread of Life that we eat and the Cup that we drink of is truly the Living Christ Himself. Not for you though, because you're outside of the Church and choose not to believe the Christ. But please don't be too hard on yourself. There were many who turned away from following the Christ as soon as He began saying that His flesh is indeed food and His blood is indeed drink, and unless you eat of this flesh and drink this blood you can have no Life in you. The Apostle Paul affirmed the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine of Communion in his Epistles. All you need to do is to receive from God the gift of greater faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, so that you can believe what He says about his flesh and blood being food and drink. Prayer from and honest heart of desire to know God the way the God wants you to know Him will assuredly be answered. Remember the father of the boy possessed by an evil spirit who said "Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief". The Lord helped him and then the evil spirit was cast out of his boy.

For you, the bread and wine are currently mere representations. For us, they are Him, and we become one with Him when taking His Divinity into ourselves by eating Him. We don't eat and drink dead flesh and blood. We eat God incarnate. By grace we become what we eat. It's not evil pagan "endocannibalism". It's the heart of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is Theosis by the power of the Holy Spirit and the eating and drinking of the Word of Life. All very Biblical and all utterly True. Do you know of Theosis and believe what the New Testament Scriptures and the Church say about it? If you're without any personal experience of the reality of Theosis, then it's probably best for you not to teach on the nature of the Sacraments -- especially Communion -- until you have been blessed with this Divine gift from above. I extend this same warning to all others who claim to be followers of Christ while refusing to discern the presence of Christ in the bread and wine of Communion, which the Bible tells us that we absolutely must not do -- or else...
 
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1stcenturylady

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All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on parasceue, which means "preparation" but it was and is the name of the sixth day, the day before the Sabbath.
There was no "high Sabbath" other than the weekly Sabbath when passover and 1st day ULB occurred on the Sabbath. The first and last days of ULB are called holy convocations, not Sabbaths. The preparation and cooking of food is specifically permitted on holy convocations. Thus there was no preparation day of holy convocations.

Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

Any holy convocation day where no work can be done is a Sabbath.
 
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1stcenturylady

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There is additional examination showing that the fermentation
process was a parallel to being made clean.

I know a southern Baptist who looked closely into it
and got the answer he did not approve of, that fermented
wine was required.

Actually boiling the grape juice cleans the grapes of the mold to make it clean. Not a full boil is needed. Just enough to clean it, then take it off the fire. It preserves the grapes into a syrup and sealed up, and when needed as new wine (grape juice) a bit of water is added.

Think about grape jelly. Even when it is stored for a long time it doesn't ferment.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I'll answer for him, ECR:
Living, deified, resurrected, ascended into heaven and at the right hand of the Father flesh and blood is being consumed through our mouths, into our own bodies. This Bread of Life that we eat and the Cup that we drink of is truly the Living Christ Himself. Not for you though, because you're outside of the Church and choose not to believe the Christ. But please don't be too hard on yourself. There were many who turned away from following the Christ as soon as He began saying that His flesh is indeed food and His blood is indeed drink, and unless you eat of this flesh and drink this blood you can have no Life in you. The Apostle Paul affirmed the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine of Communion in his Epistles. All you need to do is to receive from God the gift of greater faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, so that you can believe what He says about his flesh and blood being food and drink. Prayer from and honest heart of desire to know God the way the God wants you to know Him will assuredly be answered. Remember the father of the boy possessed by an evil spirit who said "Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief". The Lord helped him and then the evil spirit was cast out of his boy.

For you, the bread and wine are currently mere representations. For us, they are Him, and we become one with Him when taking His Divinity into ourselves by eating Him. We don't eat and drink dead flesh and blood. We eat God incarnate. By grace we become what we eat. It's not evil pagan "endocannibalism". It's the heart of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is Theosis by the power of the Holy Spirit and the eating and drinking of the Word of Life. All very Biblical and all utterly True. Do you know of Theosis and believe what the New Testament Scriptures and the Church say about it? If you're without any personal experience of the reality of Theosis, then it's probably best for you not to teach on the nature of the Sacraments -- especially Communion -- until you have been blessed with this Divine gift from above. I extend this same warning to all others who claim to be followers of Christ while refusing to discern the presence of Christ in the bread and wine of Communion, which the Bible tells us that we absolutely must not do -- or else...

OOOKAY....o_O
 
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OOOKAY....o_O
So you think it's is foolish to believe that Christ is invisibly (for most of us anyway) present with us, imparting His own self to us in the form of bread and wine in Communion, even though this is exactly what He teaches us and promises us?

OOOKAY then.... o_O I guess I'm a fool, for Christ's sake, because I do believe.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I'll answer for him, ECR:
Living, deified, resurrected, ascended into heaven and at the right hand of the Father flesh and blood is being consumed through our mouths, into our own bodies. This Bread of Life that we eat and the Cup that we drink of is truly the Living Christ Himself. Not for you though, because you're outside of the Church and choose not to believe the Christ. But please don't be too hard on yourself. There were many who turned away from following the Christ as soon as He began saying that His flesh is indeed food and His blood is indeed drink, and unless you eat of this flesh and drink this blood you can have no Life in you. The Apostle Paul affirmed the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine of Communion in his Epistles. All you need to do is to receive from God the gift of greater faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, so that you can believe what He says about his flesh and blood being food and drink. Prayer from and honest heart of desire to know God the way the God wants you to know Him will assuredly be answered. Remember the father of the boy possessed by an evil spirit who said "Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief". The Lord helped him and then the evil spirit was cast out of his boy.

For you, the bread and wine are currently mere representations. For us, they are Him, and we become one with Him when taking His Divinity into ourselves by eating Him. We don't eat and drink dead flesh and blood. We eat God incarnate. By grace we become what we eat. It's not evil pagan "endocannibalism". It's the heart of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is Theosis by the power of the Holy Spirit and the eating and drinking of the Word of Life. All very Biblical and all utterly True. Do you know of Theosis and believe what the New Testament Scriptures and the Church say about it? If you're without any personal experience of the reality of Theosis, then it's probably best for you not to teach on the nature of the Sacraments -- especially Communion -- until you have been blessed with this Divine gift from above. I extend this same warning to all others who claim to be followers of Christ while refusing to discern the presence of Christ in the bread and wine of Communion, which the Bible tells us that we absolutely must not do -- or else...

So, what evidence do you show that you have the Holy Spirit living inside you. That is needed to be IN the Church.
 
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So, what evidence do you show that you have the Holy Spirit living inside you. That is needed to be IN the Church.
I'd say my faith, for one. My ability to do anything good whatsoever for the sake of pleasing our Lord, rather than for the pleasing of myself or the vain glory that comes of the opinions of mere men. All "true" goodness is due to God the Holy Spirit working in us. But there's more.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I'd say my faith, for one. My ability to do anything good whatsoever for the sake of pleasing our Lord, rather than for the pleasing of myself or the vain glory that comes of the opinions of mere men. All "true" goodness is due to God the Holy Spirit working in us. But there's more.

How do you KNOW the Holy Spirit entered you? What did you experience? What is your testimony?
 
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1stcenturylady

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I'd say my faith, for one. My ability to do anything good whatsoever for the sake of pleasing our Lord, rather than for the pleasing of myself or the vain glory that comes of the opinions of mere men. All "true" goodness is due to God the Holy Spirit working in us. But there's more.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is literal, not just by faith as some believe, but by knowledge. It is like the consummation of a marriage. You experience it. You know it. You're not just married on paper; you have become one.

Without the Spirit, it doesn't matter what church you say you belong to.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm talking about your reference to the the account on the Emmaus Road. How can it be Friday, and not Wednesday or Thursday. Remember, the 15th is a High Sabbath, and can be any day of the week. There is a preparation day before it.

Because the encounter on Emmaus Road was on Sunday, and they specifically say "it is the third day since these things happened", "these things" being Christ's passion and death.

Friday - Jesus' passion. First day.
Saturday - Jesus is in the tomb. Second day.
Sunday - Jesus' resurrection. Third day.

The account given by St. Luke can only be understood to mean that Christ's passion, death, and burial occurred on Friday before sundown.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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So, what evidence do you show that you have the Holy Spirit living inside you. That is needed to be IN the Church.

The same as it has always been since the beginning I imagine.

symbol-clipart-baptism-11.jpg


Acts 2:38

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Well,

The Syriac Reading can be confirmed by 2 of the oldest manuscripts in Estrangelo Aramaic: the Sinaitic Palimpset and the Curetonian Syriac.

ASV Luk 24:21 But we hoped that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yea and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things came to pass.

BBE Luk 24:21 But we were hoping that he would be the Saviour of Israel. In addition to all this he has now let three days go by from the time when these things took place;

CEV Luk 24:21 We had hoped that he would be the one to set Israel free! But it has already been three days since all this happened.

Lamsa NT Luk 24:21 But we were hoping that he was the one to save Israel; and behold, it is three days since all these things happened.

Scripture does not say they seen Jesus. They only seen the "Angel of the Lord" descend from Heaven to roll the stone away. This does not mean the "Angel of the Lord" needed to roll the stone away so as to set Jesus free. Remember, Jesus did not need to use doors or windows to enter a home. So He would have had no trouble phasing through the tomb wall late at night when the guards were sleeping. Granted, Jesus could have made Himself invisible to them if He wanted to. For at another time, Jesus disappeared into a crowd when the Pharisees were seeking to stone Him. But for the sake of argument, lets say Jesus was released when the stone was rolled away by the "Angel of the Lord." First, Jesus could have resurrected within the tomb before the time of when the stone was rolled away. Second, even if Jesus was perfectly resurrected at the time of when the stone was rolled away, Jesus would have left the tomb at the "End of the Sabbath." (Matthew 28:1). The Earthquake took place and the Angel of the Lord rolled the stone away before the "End of the Sabbath." This means that it would have been before our Saturday at sunset. So Jesus was resurrected at the latest on Saturday late afternoon. However, to perfectly line up with His death, Christ would have resurrected at 3:00PM.

nice try...
 
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Hank77

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Any holy convocation day where no work can be done is a Sabbath.
I used to think that too, but I was wrong.

Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

The part in bold can't be done on the 7th day Sabbath. Preparing food has to be done on the preparation day, or sometime, before the 7th day Sabbath.
No holy convocation days are Sabbaths except the 7th day Sabbath.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I know leaven is used in seemingly contradictory ways in scripture but I think this scripture puts it in it's proper context.

Exodus 23:18
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread;

Unleavened bread was used ONLY during one period per year, the days of unleavened. Scripture says Yeshua used "artos" not "azymous"...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
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I used to think that too, but I was wrong.

Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

The part in bold can't be done on the 7th day Sabbath. Preparing food has to be done on the preparation day, or sometime, before the 7th day Sabbath.
No holy convocation days are Sabbaths except the 7th day Sabbath.

and Yom Kippur
 
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