If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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ClementofA

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Placing them in a situation where it is mathematically impossible for one to reject Him IS making people into robots and puppets.

Not when it's of their own choice, as i said:

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.


It seems to me that withhold special light for some (such as He gave to Paul), making it an almost surety that they would find their way to Hell to be tortured for a million years after living this life on earth, IS being a monster just as surely as anything else He has done – if I were to allow myself to judge Him as you do.

A million years of choosing to reject & be tormented was never said to be a surety. Even if it was, it would be nothing next to endless torments.


Where do you get the idea that eternal punishment for sins is pointless and serves no corrective purpose?

What corrective purpose do you think it serves?

You go ahead and call the God of the scriptures a sadistic, cruel monster if you feel you must. I want no part of judging Him so.

You've already made a judgement of Him as in what you think He will do to human beings for eternity. It's not good. And it's not scriptural.

I trust a God who would die for my sins even when He does things I don't understand.

I both trust Him and understand.

Though He slay me – yet will I trust Him.

Of course. That would send you to endless bliss. If you are saved.

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

Better be sure & listen to this gospel message:

The Christian Life is Impossible
 
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ClementofA

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Romans 2:4 says the goodness of God leads to repentance.
Even if God pursues them (which I doubt) they will not see His goodness, they can only see His wrath. John 3:36

There's no mention there of "seeing" wrath.

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

Those who are cursed do not see the goodness of God.
Therefore universal salvation is false.

That only applies to when they are hardening their hearts, not to when they choose to seek the Lord.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

The "many" in v.19 is a Hebraism meaning all. Just as Jesus says He would give His life a ransom for "many" (Mk.10:45) which Paul says is "all" people (1 Tim.2:4-6).

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Doug Melven

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There's no mention there of "seeing" wrath.
There is no mention of "Seeing" His goodness either.
So that argument is refuted.
That only applies to when they are hardening their hearts, not to when they choose to seek the Lord.
If they have hardened there hearts against God, then they won't seek Him. I thought that was plain.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
I have already dealt with this many times. But clearly you have hardened your heart to the truth.
 
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Oldmantook

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I did not forget. I state my position, but I will not engage in endless argument to either defend my position or to convince anyone else to accept my position. I did years ago argue the same way when I was a young believer, but at this stage in my life I know it is fruitless. My only concern is that I say what the Holy Spirit wants said so He can make it alive in another heart. If I don't say what the Lord wants, then I don't want to endlessly repeat that! I came to this realization because in my young walk with the Lord I, too, made my position my cause and purpose. And, yes, iron does sharpen iron, and yes, we can agree to disagree.
I understand where you're coming from but perhaps you're assuming that others who "promote" a certain view or stance have the same motivation/agenda as you did earlier in life. From my own perspective, I don't really care if
Nowhere in the Scripture does it state Jesus is in the Lake of Fire.
He does not have to be in the fire for them to be tormented in His presence.
And your interpretation of Revelation 14:10 puts the holy angels in the Lake of fire too. Why would they be there?
Your interpretation is wrong.
Rev 14:10 says what it says. If you choose to add your own words to it to shoehorn your interpretation of it, then that is your prerogative. In his presence means in his presence. Plain and simple language.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Yet your previous comment indicated you haven't seriously considered UR.
Which comment was that?

By the way, just as does Doug Melven, I do see universal reconciliation in the scriptures. It is universal justification by faith which I do not see in the scriptures.
A million years of choosing to reject & be tormented was never said to be a surety. Even if it was, it would be nothing next to endless torments.
One million years or two years in the fire would be a finite number of years. But they would not be nothing.
Not when it's of their own choice, as i said:
It is hard for us to understand how a good God could create a man, place him in a garden with a tree the fruit of which would kill him, place a beautiful talking creature in the garden to tempt him to eat the fruit, punish the man for giving in, provide salvation for the man's offspring which must be accessed by faith - then provide a Damascus road experience only for a chosen few while leaving others to flounder in their lack of faith until they die and find themselves in the fires of judgment.

But now you would have us believe that God not only passed some by with those kinds of special visits He was capable of giving them. But He now tortures the ones He failed to convince of the truth (as He did Paul for instance).

Having refused to write the gospel on the ceiling of those people with His finger when they reached the age of understanding - He now tortures them for a few years in the fire, preaches the gospel to them every now and then and asks if they are ready to submit to it. When they will not - He leaves them in the fire for a few more years and visits them again. He does this over and over again, knowing full well that there is a "50%" chance they will submit each time He gives them the gospel.

He knows that there is no real mathematical chance that they will not believe in Christ given enough time in the fires.

This is His method of convincing billions of people that the gospel is true when He could well have appeared in a bright light and given them the gospel every year or so while they lived their lives here on earth for 70 or 80 years?????:scratch:

Clean up the picture above a little if you must. I'm still not buying your version.

I'll take the one where God requires faith in His Word while living this physical life in order to be saved because it was a lack of faith in His Word which caused our horrible fall to judgment in the first place.

I'll take the one where each and everything that happens in creation (bar none) is an example of some facet of God's nature to be displayed for eternity to creatures only God knows about.
What corrective purpose do you think it serves?
The corrective purpose He wishes to visit on those who may be tempted to rebel in the ages to come perhaps?

We haven't been told enough to know for sure how He will use it. We only know that whatever He does (by and for and in His Word) will accomplish exactly what He sent the Word forth to accomplish.
You've already made a judgement of Him as in what you think He will do to human beings for eternity. It's not good. And it's not scriptural.
It's not an enjoyable truth to contemplate. But it is indeed scriptural.
I both trust Him and understand.
You understand incorrectly IMO. But then we've been over that before.

You are just whistling through a graveyard. Your God is as much a monster as mine would be if I chose to judge Him while only seeing Him through a foggy glass. I don't choose to do that and neither should you.
 
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Doug Melven

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Rev 14:10 says what it says. If you choose to add your own words to it to shoehorn your interpretation of it, then that is your prerogative. In his presence means in his presence. Plain and simple language.
It looks to me as if you are reading into the Scripture something that is not there.
And you still haven't said why the Holy Angels are in the fire too.
 
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Oldmantook

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Jesus suffers for the sins of the world and is also eternally exalted in victory through His overcoming life. He is pictured in the throne of God in Heaven as both the Lion and the Lamb.

I believe that His eternal suffering as the Lamb will be the primary reason we cast our crowns at the feet of Him who is seated in glory at the right hand of God and has seated us there with Him.

I believe that being able to vividly see in Hell what Jesus did for them will add to their torment because they could have receive Him as the Lamb of God and did not.

Obviously anyone saying that this understanding of eternity is exactly right is full of bull. We see through the glass darkly and will until that day when we see God face to face.
Your use of the phrase "eternal suffering of the Lamb" implies that Jesus is still suffering? When Jesus uttered on the cross "it is finished" did not his suffering and sacrifice cease, or is it still eternal? You previously wrote that Jesus may be suffering the punishment due us for our sins as well as those who are not among the elect in the lake of fire. How would that fit with the atonement being a one-time event/sacrifice for the propitiation of man's sin?

I believe these are incorrect representations of the first two positions.

God is able to save all + God's hearts desire is to save all = God's decree is that all will not be saved so that His righteousness and just wrath might be eternally displayed in the ages to come just as will be His mercy and grace. (Calvinism)

God is able to save all + God desires to save all = all are not saved and God has no ultimate plan as to why He allows people to be lost even though He could have presented it. (Arminianism)
Your Calvinism response assumes that His righteousness and wrath are ends - in and of themselves. My position is that His righteousness and wrath are the means but which his end goal is accomplished. Colossians 1:19 states what God's purpose/end is: "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." God's stated ultimate purpose is to reconcile all to himself. If verses such as this didn't exist then I would tend to agree with your position, however as you know all scripture must be reconciled with our respective positions.

My reply to your Arminianism response is likewise similar. God will not allow people to be lost since his ultimate purpose is to reconcile all things to himself making peace by the blood of his cross.

He is that.

He is a reminder to all of those who sinned against Him (every one of us) concerning the utter folly of those who rejected God's grace and the extent of the grace of God which saved the elect.
Yes a reminder - but for what purpose? Eternal punishment or reconciliation?
 
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Oldmantook

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It looks to me as if you are reading into the Scripture something that is not there.
And you still haven't said why the Holy Angels are in the fire too.
Do you really disagree that in his presence does not mean in his presence? It's plain and simple English to me. As far as the angels go, see my above reply to Marvin Knox which may shed some light to your query.
 
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Doug Melven

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Do you really disagree that in his presence does not mean in his presence? It's plain and simple English to me. As far as the angels go, see my above reply to Marvin Knox which may shed some light to your query.
In His presence actually means in His presence.
It does not mean that they are in the same state.
If you are watching a game from the bleachers, the players are in your presence.
They are not in the stands with you, you are not on the field with them.
You are confusing "In His presence" with "With His presence" or "Alongside His presence".
You will have to provide a post number or answer again why the Holy Angels are in the LOF.
 
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Der Alte

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. . . God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. ...
Can you show me any scripture which explicitly states this? Where does any scripture state that "Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them?" Something so important don't you think God would have stated that somewhere at least once?
 
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Doug Melven

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Can you show me any scripture which explicitly states this? Where does any scripture state that "Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them?" Something so important don't you think God would have stated that somewhere at least once?
He can't show you a Scripture saying that, because there isn't one (but I think you knew that already).
What he will do is state that it is logical for God to do so.
His ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
So we can just toss human logic out.
 
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Der Alte

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He can't show you a Scripture saying that, because there isn't one (but I think you knew that already).
What he will do is state that it is logical for God to do so.
His ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
So we can just toss human logic out
.
Rats you caught me. Their human logic goes "God is love omnipotent, God's love never fails. So God's love will go into the grave and beyond to save everyone."
 
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Oldmantook

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In His presence actually means in His presence.
It does not mean that they are in the same state.
If you are watching a game from the bleachers, the players are in your presence.
They are not in the stands with you, you are not on the field with them.
You are confusing "In His presence" with "With His presence" or "Alongside His presence".
You will have to provide a post number or answer again why the Holy Angels are in the LOF.
Sorry but I think you are violating the golden rule of hermeneutics which states that if the plain meaning of a scripture makes plain sense; seek no other sense. Those who take the mark end up in the lake of fire IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB. It does not matter whether Jesus is "watching from the stands in the LOF" or "on the playing field in the LOF." The fact/emphasis of this scripture is that they are tormented in his presence.
Post #289 - Jesus is there as a reminder. Perhaps the angels are there as reminders also and as witnesses.
 
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Doug Melven

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Sorry but I think you are violating the golden rule of hermeneutics which states that if the plain meaning of a scripture makes plain sense; seek no other sense. Those who take the mark end up in the lake of fire IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB. It does not matter whether Jesus is "watching from the stands in the LOF" or "on the playing field in the LOF." The fact/emphasis of this scripture is that they are tormented in his presence.
Post #289 - Jesus is there as a reminder. Perhaps the angels are there as reminders also and as witnesses.
RULE 3: THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION

III. The third rule of interpretation is as follows:



WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.

Jesus in the LOF in no way makes common sense.
Common sense interpretation of"In His presence" means that each party can see the other.
If one party is in a lake, and one party is on the shore, they are still in each others presence.
That is just plain common sense.
No violation of the golden rule of hermeneutics.
Just a violation/destruction of your doctrine of Jesus being inside the LOF.
 
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ClementofA

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Revelation 14:10

Also - I really don't see how the folks pushing the idea of eventual universal salvation can miss the fact that "the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever".


Marvin,

Of course you don't "see". Because you've never seriously considered the UR viewpoint & are ignorant of it (like the majority of posters here). We, OTOH, have been in your shoes before & understood your view & rejected it for a more biblically sound interpretation.

I have seriously considered the UR viewpoint and I am not ignorant of it's premise.

Yet your previous comment indicated you haven't seriously considered UR.

Which comment was that?

Here:

Revelation 14:10

Also - I really don't see how the folks pushing the idea of eventual universal salvation can miss the fact that "the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever".

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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he-man

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I didn't choose to live here but I am still responsible for my sin. God wants all men to repent:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Why would God desire that if it weren't possible?

Please answer my question: whose fault is my sin, mine or Gods?
Romans 8:34; Romans 8:36; Psalms 44:22
 
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Marvin Knox

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Your use of the phrase "eternal suffering of the Lamb" implies that Jesus is still suffering? When Jesus uttered on the cross "it is finished" did not his suffering and sacrifice cease, or is it still eternal? You previously wrote that Jesus may be suffering the punishment due us for our sins as well as those who are not among the elect in the lake of fire. How would that fit with the atonement being a one-time event/sacrifice for the propitiation of man's sin?
The actual death of Christ in time is what we have taking place at Calvary.

But Christ is, from God's perspective, the Lamb slain "from the foundation of the world". Obviously there was a "cosmic" transaction which took place within the Godhead irrespective of the time on earth when it played out from our earthly perspective.

IMO - when the Father deserted the Son on Calvary (for instance) there was an eternal equivalent which took place within the Godhead itself which that event signified.

In the Book of Revelation the Word of God is seen "within the throne of God" as both a slain lamb and an enthroned Lion.

I believe all of mankind (and indeed everything else) is reconciled to God either in the Lamb or the Lion depending on their salvation status.
Your Calvinism response assumes that His righteousness and wrath are ends - in and of themselves. My position is that His righteousness and wrath are the means but which his end goal is accomplished. Colossians 1:19 states what God's purpose/end is: "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." God's stated ultimate purpose is to reconcile all to himself. If verses such as this didn't exist then I would tend to agree with your position, however as you know all scripture must be reconciled with our respective positions.
It says that God has already "reconciled" the world to Himself not counting our sins against us. But it is still necessary that we are reconciled to Him by faith.

Whatever "reconciled" means, it is obvious that people can be and are reconciled to God by God and still be lost - even for eternity as I see it.
My reply to your Arminianism response is likewise similar. God will not allow people to be lost since his ultimate purpose is to reconcile all things to himself making peace by the blood of his cross.
Same response as above. He already has achieved that purposed reconciliation and it has happened for lost and saved alike.

Obviously a person can have been reconciled by God to Himself and still not be justified before Him because they lack faith in that work of Christ on their behalf.

By the way - let's be clear on one thing. I do not know exactly how these things will play out in eternity and neither does anyone else.

My only goal in suggesting things such as I am is to show that there are many ways these things could play out and they do not have to teach universal salvation as you guys suggest they do.
 
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