Lutheranism and predestination

From what I understand, those who are damned are damned because they choose to reject God's grace. We cannot save ourselves as God does all the saving work, but we do have the free will to reject God and his gift. It is God's desire that all be saved, but some will reject him. That is the way I understand it at least.

Sean611 said:

From what I understand, those who are damned are damned because they choose to reject God's grace. We cannot save ourselves as God does all the saving work, but we do have the free will to reject God and his gift. It is God's desire that all be saved, but some will reject him. That is the way I understand it at least.

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Perfect answer!

God created us, we are His, and He desires our salvation, but like children with our earthly parents, some chose to reject what our parents desire for us.

The Prodigal Son is a direct illustration of how God welcomes even those who have gone astray, but repent.

Lutheranism is Biblical. Period!

Styrmir said:

Hey there. As I understand it Lutherans believe in single predestination, that is, they believe that God has chosen people to be saved but hasn't chosen who's damned. They also believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just some people. How is it possible for those who are not predestined to be saved it they aren't the predestined? They'd have to work towards it, which means that Lutheran theology is self contradictory right? Do those that aren't predestined have a chance of being saved? Please explain this to me, and don't give me some answer about how this isn't supposed to make sense or you just need to trust contradicting Scripture, because I'm not buying it

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The doctrine of Election isn't about who's "in" and who's "out", it's about the fact that we can be confident that we belong to God because He chose us. God's election isn't inscrutable and hidden, but revealed through the visible Means of Grace--Word and Sacrament. Are you baptized? Then you belong to God.

Nobody chooses Christ, Christ chooses us. That is what is revealed here when St. Paul writes that "God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" and "while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son" (Romans 5:8 and 10). Christ did not die for those worthy, but for the unworthy--for everyone. God's love is for everyone, and it is His desire that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). So why then isn't everyone (ostensibly) saved? "[P]eople loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19), it is we ourselves who reject the merciful and loving God, not God rejecting us.

-CryptoLutheran

I’ve found your postings on this subject a bit hard to follow. To get a traditional Lutheran view, I checked the LCMS web site. They point to the following detailed paper: file:///Users/hedrick/Downloads/LCMS-CTCR-Theses-on_Justification-1983-Final.pdf.

Here’s my understanding of it:

* Objectively, God has justified and forgiven everyone.
* But to be saved, an individual must appropriate this by faith.
* Faith is not something an individual is capable of, but is created in us by God.
* Nothing is said about why there are people who don’t have justifying faith.

I don’t know whether Luther makes this clear distinction between objective and subjective justification, but the other three points are consistent with what I know of Luther. On the last point, late in his life Luther seemed to say that we are not told why some people don’t have faith. While logically it might seem based on points 2 and 3 it is because God decides not to save them, Scripture never reveals that, and this is an area in which strict logic is dangerous. It is easy to fall into a view that makes God look like the cause of evil, which he is not.

Is this what you’re saying?

hedrick said:

I’ve found your postings on this subject a bit hard to follow. To get a traditional Lutheran view, I checked the LCMS web site. They point to the following detailed paper: file:///Users/hedrick/Downloads/LCMS-CTCR-Theses-on_Justification-1983-Final.pdf.

Here’s my understanding of it:

* Objectively, God has justified and forgiven everyone.
* But to be saved, an individual must appropriate this by faith.
* Faith is not something an individual is capable of, but is created in us by God.
* Nothing is said about why there are people who don’t have justifying faith.

I don’t know whether Luther makes this clear distinction between objective and subjective justification, but the other three points are consistent with what I know of Luther. On the last point, late in his life Luther seemed to say that we are not told why some people don’t have faith. While logically it might seem based on points 2 and 3 it is because God decides not to save them, Scripture never reveals that, and this is an area in which strict logic is dangerous. It is easy to fall into a view that makes God look like the cause of evil, which he is not.

Is this what you’re saying?

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Pretty much Hedrick!

I think that that is a better understanding than most Lutherans have; and certainly better than the more liberal synods.

Styrmir said:

Hey there. As I understand it Lutherans believe in single predestination, that is, they believe that God has chosen people to be saved but hasn't chosen who's damned. They also believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just some people. How is it possible for those who are not predestined to be saved it they aren't the predestined? They'd have to work towards it, which means that Lutheran theology is self contradictory right? Do those that aren't predestined have a chance of being saved? Please explain this to me, and don't give me some answer about how this isn't supposed to make sense or you just need to trust contradicting Scripture, because I'm not buying it

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Go directly to the source, Dr. Luther wrote a book called "On the Bondage of the Will". In it, you just might be surprised. It is a formal response to Catholic Priest Erasmus on this very subject of predestination and the will.

It should be noted that Lutherans don't follow or confess to everything Luther believed, taught, or wrote. I don't believe "On the Bondage of the Will" is something Lutherans confess to and Luther's exact views on all the different nuances and facets of predestination seems to be unclear, if one takes the whole of his life into account.

Where in the bible does it say God damns people to hell? It does not. People arrive at that conclusion based off of reason. The Calvinist front loads the doctrine of predestination and turns it into a who's in whos out a game. Lutheran sticks only to what the scriptures say. The scriptures always present predestination as a comfort. And of course, there is much here that is the paradox, unlike the Reformed who like to fiddle with scripture and make everything need and tidy and comfortable with the mind Lutherans recognize that there is the paradox in scripture. This is not self-contradictory as you put it, it is fact what I believe makes Lutheranism the only one that actually believes in Sola Scriptura.

XI. Election. The Epitome of Concord
1] Concerning this article no public dissension has occurred among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. But since it is a consolatory article, if treated properly, and lest offensive disputations concerning the same be instituted in the future, it is also explained in this writing.

Affirmative Theses.
The Pure and True Doctrine concerning This Article.

2] 1. To begin with [First of all], the distinction between praescientia et praedestinatio, that is, between God's foreknowledge and His eternal election, ought to be accurately observed.

3] 2. For the foreknowledge of God is nothing else than that God knows all things before they happen, as it is written Dan. 2:28: There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

4] 3. This foreknowledge extends alike over the godly and the wicked, but it is not the cause of evil, neither of sin, namely, of doing what is wrong (which originally arises from the devil and the wicked, perverse will of man), nor of their ruin [that men perish], for which they themselves are responsible [which they must ascribe to themselves]; but it only regulates it, and fixes a limit to it [how far it should progress and] how long it should last, and all this to the end that it should serve His elect for their salvation, notwithstanding that it is evil in itself.

5] 4. The predestination or eternal election of God, however, extends only over the godly, beloved children of God, being a cause of their salvation, which He also provides, as well as disposes what belongs thereto. Upon this [predestination of God] our salvation is founded so firmly that the gates of hell cannot overcome it. John 10:28; Matt. 16:18.

6] 5. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed.

7] 6. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1:4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.

8] 7. This Christ calls to Himself all sinners and promises them rest, and He is in earnest [seriously wills] that all men should come to Him and suffer themselves to be helped, to whom He offers Himself in His Word, and wishes them to hear it and not to stop their ears or [neglect and] despise the Word. Moreover, He promises the power and working of the Holy Ghost, and divine assistance for perseverance and eternal salvation [that we may remain steadfast in the faith and attain eternal salvation].

9] 8. Therefore we should judge concerning this our election to eternal life neither from reason nor from the Law of God, which lead us either into a reckless, dissolute, Epicurean life or into despair, and excite pernicious thoughts in the hearts of men, for they cannot, as long as they follow their reason, successfully refrain from thinking: If God has elected me to salvation, I cannot be condemned, no matter what I do; and again: If I am not elected to eternal life, it is of no avail what good I do; it is all [all my efforts are] in vain anyway.

10] 9. But it [the true judgment concerning predestination] must be learned alone from the holy Gospel concerning Christ, in which it is clearly testified that God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all, and that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and believe in the Lord Christ. Rom. 11:32; Ezek. 18:23; 33:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2.

11] 10. Whoever, now, is thus concerned about the revealed will of God, and proceeds according to the order which St. Paul has observed in the Epistle to the Romans, who first directs men to repentance, to knowledge of sins, to faith in Christ, to divine obedience, before he speaks of the mystery of the eternal election of God, to him this doctrine [concerning God's predestination] is useful and consolatory.

12] 11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22:14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God's Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2:1ff ; Luke 11:49. 52; Heb. 12:25f.]

13] 12. Thus far a Christian should occupy himself [in meditation] with the article concerning the eternal election of God, as it has been revealed in God's Word, which presents to us Christ as the Book of Life, which He opens and reveals to us by the preaching of the holy Gospel, as it is written Rom. 8:30: Whom He did predestinate, them He also called. In Him we are to seek the eternal election of the Father, who has determined in His eternal divine counsel that He would save no one except those who know His Son Christ and truly believe on Him. Other thoughts are to be [entirely] banished [from the minds of the godly], as they proceed not from God, but from the suggestion of the Evil Foe, whereby he attempts to weaken or entirely to remove from us the glorious consolation which we have in this salutary doctrine, namely, that we know [assuredly] that out of pure grace, without any merit of our own, we have been elected in Christ to eternal life, and that no one can pluck us out of His hand; as He has not only promised this gracious election with mere words, but has also certified it with an oath and sealed it with the holy Sacraments, which we can [ought to] call to mind in our most severe temptations, and take comfort in them, and therewith quench the fiery darts of the devil.

14] 13. Besides, we should use the greatest diligence to live according to the will of God, and, as St. Peter admonishes, 2 Pet. 1:10, make our calling sure, and especially adhere to [not recede a finger's breadth from] the revealed Word: that can and will not fail us.

15] 14. By this brief explanation of the eternal election of God His glory is entirely and fully given to God, that out of pure mercy alone, without all merit of ours, He saves us according to the purpose of His will; besides, also, no cause is given any one for despondency or a vulgar, wild life [no opportunity is afforded either for those more severe agitations of mind and faintheartedness or for Epicureanism].

Negative Theses
False Doctrine concerning This Article.

16] Accordingly, we believe and hold: When any teach the doctrine concerning the gracious election of God to eternal life in such a manner that troubled Christians cannot comfort themselves therewith, but are thereby led to despondency or despair, or the impenitent are strengthened in their wantonness, that such doctrine is treated [wickedly and erroneously] not according to the Word and will of God, but according to reason and the instigation of the cursed Satan. For, as the apostle testifies, Rom. 15:4, whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, might have hope. Therefore we reject the following errors:

17] 1. As when it is taught that God is unwilling that all men repent and believe the Gospel.

18] 2. Also, that when God calls us to Himself, He is not in earnest that all men should come to Him.

19] 3. Also, that God is unwilling that every one should be saved, but that some, without regard to their sins, from the mere counsel, purpose, and will of God, are ordained to condemnation so that they cannot be saved.

20] 4. Also, that not only the mercy of God and the most holy merit of Christ, but also in us there is a cause of God's election, on account of which God has elected us to everlasting life.

21] All these are blasphemous and dreadful erroneous doctrines, whereby all the comfort which they have in the holy Gospel and the use of the holy Sacraments is taken from Christians, and therefore should not be tolerated in the Church of God.

----------

22] This is the brief and simple explanation of the controverted articles, which for a time have been debated and taught controversially among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. Hence every simple Christian, according to the guidance of God's Word and his simple Catechism, can perceive what is right or wrong, since not only the pure doctrine has been stated, but also the erroneous contrary doctrine has been repudiated and rejected, and thus the offensive divisions that have occurred are thoroughly settled [and decided].

23] May Almighty God and the Father of our Lord Jesus grant the grace of His Holy Ghost that we all may be one in Him, and constantly abide in this Christian unity, which is well pleasing to Him! Amen.



http://www.stpaulslutheranchurch.net/cruxtheologorum.html

Imagine someone is at the bottom of the sea and is dead, a boat comes along and the sailor jumps overboard and swims to the bottom of the sea and pulls that decomposing body out of the sea and onto his boat. He breathes new life into him and he is revived. The formerly dead person comes too realizes he is alive pushes the sailor away jumps up and jumps off the boat and swims back to the bottom of the sea and dies. Now the man's salvation was given to him completely by the sailor who you might realize is meant to represent Christ. But his own falling away and damnation was all on his hands.

Styrmir said:

Hey there. As I understand it Lutherans believe in single predestination, that is, they believe that God has chosen people to be saved but hasn't chosen who's damned. They also believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just some people. How is it possible for those who are not predestined to be saved if they aren't the predestined? They'd have to work towards it, which means that Lutheran theology is self-contradictory right? Do those that aren't predestined have a chance of being saved? Please explain this to me, and don't give me some answer about how this isn't supposed to make sense or you just need to trust contradicting Scripture, because I'm not buying it

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I'm a Lutheran Seminary student LCMS and a former Calvinist so I've dealt with these questions.

Yes, Lutherans believe in single predestination. We do not teach double predestination because we do not see it in scripture. It is constructed by reason. "Since some are predestined to heaven reason dictates that some are chosen for damnation." For Lutherans what is important for us is that we only speak were scripture speaks so we reject the idea the idea of double predestination in that it attempts to speak where God has not.

You are correct that we believe deny limited atonement. I think it would be best to refer to the Lutheran view as Universal Atonement. Which needs to be distinguished from the Unlimited Atonement of Arminians. Calvinists teach that Christ died only for the elect. Arminians teach that he died to make salvation possible for anyone who believes. Lutherans believe that Christ objectively died for the sins of the whole world. That there is no one on this planet we cannot say Christ has not atoned for. It is an objective fact.

Now here is where I'm sure you will have a problem. Lutherans hold to the idea of paradox. See at the heart of your question is the uestion "Why are some saved and others not? you see the calvinist answer to that question is because of Gods choice. The Arminian says Mans free will. The Lutherans say "That is actually two questions, why are some saved? by 100% Gods grace. Why are some not saved and others not? It is 100% man's fault. Now you say that makes NO sence. Your absolutly right it makes no sense because it's not supposed to. See when other groups find rough edges and inconsistencies in scripture they try to smooth them out and make them palatable to the mind. When Lutherans are faced with the same thing we leave it alone, we do not try to rationalize it we believe exactly what the bible says, even when paradoxical. God has not revealed to us exactly how this works so we do not try peak up Gods pant leg.

Reformed theology is rational but not biblical, Lutheran theology is biblical but not rational.

You ask if the predestined have a choice in being saved, the thing is is that we have no free will to choose God unless he gives us faith. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone.

Nova Scotian Boy said:

I'm a Lutheran Seminary student LCMS and a former Calvinist so I've dealt with these questions.

Yes, Lutherans believe in single predestination. We do not teach double predestination because we do not see it in scripture. It is constructed by reason. "Since some are predestined to heaven reason dictates that some are chosen for damnation." For Lutherans what is important for us is that we only speak were scripture speaks so we reject the idea the idea of double predestination in that it attempts to speak where God has not.

You are correct that we believe deny limited atonement. I think it would be best to refer to the Lutheran view as Universal Atonement. Which needs to be distinguished from the Unlimited Atonement of Arminians. Calvinists teach that Christ died only for the elect. Arminians teach that he died to make salvation possible for anyone who believes. Lutherans believe that Christ objectively died for the sins of the whole world. That there is no one on this planet we cannot say Christ has not atoned for. It is an objective fact.

Now here is where I'm sure you will have a problem. Lutherans hold to the idea of paradox. See at the heart of your question is the uestion "Why are some saved and others not? you see the calvinist answer to that question is because of Gods choice. The Arminian says Mans free will. The Lutherans say "That is actually two questions, why are some saved? by 100% Gods grace. Why are some not saved and others not? It is 100% man's fault. Now you say that makes NO sence. Your absolutly right it makes no sense because it's not supposed to. See when other groups find rough edges and inconsistencies in scripture they try to smooth them out and make them palatable to the mind. When Lutherans are faced with the same thing we leave it alone, we do not try to rationalize it we believe exactly what the bible says, even when paradoxical. God has not revealed to us exactly how this works so we do not try peak up Gods pant leg.

Reformed theology is rational but not biblical, Lutheran theology is not biblical but not rational.

You ask if the predestined have a choice in being saved, the thing is is that we have no free will to choose God unless he gives us faith. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone.

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Reformed theology is rational but not biblical, Lutheran theology is not biblical but not rational.

I think you meant Lutheran Theology is Biblical but not rational?

Attending Sem in St. Catherine's?

MarkRohfrietsch said:

Reformed theology is rational but not biblical, Lutheran theology is not biblical but not rational.

I think you meant Lutheran Theology is Biblical but not rational?

Attending Sem in St. Catherine's?

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Yes! thank you foy pointing out that typo.

I'am actally at Concordia in Fort Wayne Indiana.

Election just isn't all that important, at least not in the way it is in the Reformed faith. Lutherans just situate the faith about where it always has been on the issue, more or less consistent with the Council of Orange's position on predestination.

FireDragon76 said:

Election just isn't all that important, at least not in the way it is in the Reformed faith. Lutherans just situate the faith about where it always has been on the issue, more or less consistent with the Council of Orange's position on predestination.

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I would not say it's not important it just has a different emphasize. For Lutherans the point of the election is the comfort, not to cause us doubt. We will only know who is predestined when they persevere to the end. For the Reformed, they put the emphasis more on the front. Constantly asking how do I Know I'm elect and not damned etc.

That's true but election for us is realized concretely through baptism and reinforced through the other sacraments. It's never theoretical. For the Reformed, baptism is mostly a symbol of God choosing to save some people, and a "charitable presumption" that the person baptized will be among the elect. Some of the British Puritans in fact went overboard in how much they emphasized that "charitable" bit, to the point that baptismal grace became very much conditional.

I left an Episcopal church because they took that sort of attitude towards baptism, where they'ld debate if a candidate's sponsors were really "Christian" enough to raise them properly. That was the last straw for me. Either God does something in baptism, or he doesn't.

As VC recently pointed out on another thread elsewhere, there's real grace and then there's pretend grace. And if we are dealing with pretend grace, we have a pretend religion and we might as well be sitting around with plastic teacups and stuffed animals.

Well put, its true election is very much tied into baptism and the sacraments for us.

I think that's an important point because it shows how Lutheranism isn't simply obscurantism.

Nova Scotian Boy said:

Yes! thank you foy pointing out that typo.

I'am actally at Concordia in Fort Wayne Indiana.

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Great school! That is where my Pastor went; Rev. Tim Teusher. This Sunday is his last service at our Church as he will be installed as president of LCC the end of this month; our new National Bishop!

LCC will benefit from his leadership, but we will miss him!