Lutheranism and predestination

Why don't you take your question to the Lutheran forum instead? I think you're likely to get better or more focused replies there.

I understand. It takes a little time to be able to comfortably navigate all the sections here, and especially when the various home denominational forums are called by some slogan rather than just by the denominational name. Click 'forums' at the top and read down through the list to Christian Communities if you haven't done so already.

Hi Styrmir, remember too, that when you enter into another denomination's home board, it's supposed to be for information gathering purposes, not for debate. IOW, debate on that board is supposed to be between Lutherans only (but they do welcome "outsiders" questions and ideas, and the opportunity to talk about their faith, of course).

edit: I missed the fact that you are Lutheran, sorry about that!!

As for your thread here, I agree that this is an area of inconsistency with our Lutheran brothers, so I will be interested to hear what they have to say. My Arminian friends tell me that everyone is predestined (which just means no one is), and that only those who choose to believe are saved (which leads to further complications since that choice would have to be made APART from God's grace if God's saving grace is extended to all as our Arminian friends believe/teach that it is).

Perhaps the Lutherans teach a similar soteriology

Yours and His,
David

Oh, and I see that you are pretty new around here, so WELCOME TO CF ..

Styrmir said:

Thanks! do you have a reply to my question though? :þ

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I could generalize but I really believe that there are some very knowledgable Lutherans here who would do a much better job of it. It is true that they do not believe in Double Predestination but do believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Neither guarantees salvation. The elect can harden their hearts and reject God and the non-Elect may be saved. It almost certainly is unfair to Lutherans to say that they contradict themselves on this issue.

One point that needs to be made also is that if you question a Lutheran, it matters which Lutheran church he belongs to. A member of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod (LCMS) or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) will probably be more sympathetic to the views of Luther and early Lutheranism, while a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) probably wouldn't be, at least as concerns this matter.

Styrmir said:

Hey there. As I understand it Lutherans believe in single predestination, that is, they believe that God has chosen people to be saved but hasn't chosen who's damned. They also believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just some people. How is it possible for those who are not predestined to be saved if they aren't the predestined? They'd have to work towards it, which means that Lutheran theology is self-contradictory right? Do those that aren't predestined have a chance of being saved? Please explain this to me, and don't give me some answer about how this isn't supposed to make sense or you just need to trust contradicting Scripture, because I'm not buying it

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I'm a Lutheran Seminary student LCMS and a former Calvinist so I've dealt with these questions.

Yes, Lutherans believe in single predestination. We do not teach double predestination because we do not see it in scripture. It is constructed by reason. "Since some are predestined to heaven reason dictates that some are chosen for damnation." For Lutherans what is important for us is that we only speak were scripture speaks so we reject the idea the idea of double predestination in that it attempts to speak where God has not.

You are correct that we believe deny limited atonement. I think it would be best to refer to the Lutheran view as Universal Atonement. Which needs to be distinguished from the Unlimited Atonement of Arminians. Calvinists teach that Christ died only for the elect. Arminians teach that he died to make salvation possible for anyone who believes. Lutherans believe that Christ objectively died for the sins of the whole world. That there is no one on this planet we cannot say Christ has not atoned for. It is an objective fact.

Now here is where I'm sure you will have a problem. Lutherans hold to the idea of paradox. See at the heart of your question is the uestion "Why are some saved and others not? you see the calvinist answer to that question is because of Gods choice. The Arminian says Mans free will. The Lutherans say "That is actually two questions, why are some saved? by 100% Gods grace. Why are some not saved and others not? It is 100% man's fault. Now you say that makes NO sence. Your absolutly right it makes no sense because it's not supposed to. See when other groups find rough edges and inconsistencies in scripture they try to smooth them out and make them palatable to the mind. When Lutherans are faced with the same thing we leave it alone, we do not try to rationalize it we believe exactly what the bible says, even when paradoxical. God has not revealed to us exactly how this works so we do not try peak up Gods pant leg.

Reformed theology is rational but not biblical, Lutheran theology is biblical but not rational.

You ask if the predestined have a choice in being saved, the thing is is that we have no free will to choose God unless he gives us faith. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone.

I'm not Lutheran in any sense of the word, but I think I may be able to explain it (maybe one who reads this will consider it an olive branch and extend a similar courtesy to Catholics in the future).

They say that God has chosen some people from the beginning of time to save. They also say that He doesn't automatically damn the rest of us, and neither does He predestine some to Hell. For those who aren't pre-destined, it's entirely possible that we could merit heaven- we simply weren't chosen "from the foundation of the world" to enter the Kingdom.

I would compare this to a lottery. The government chooses some people to give a few winning lottery tickets to, then circulates the rest. Anyone can get the other winning ones because the government didn't choose specific people to deny them to.

TuxAme said:

I'm not Lutheran in any sense of the word, but I think I may be able to explain it (maybe one who reads this will consider it an olive branch and extend a similar courtesy to Catholics in the future).

They say that God has chosen some people from the beginning of time to save. They also say that He doesn't automatically damn the rest of us, and neither does He predestine some to Hell. For those who aren't pre-destined, it's entirely possible that we could merit heaven- we simply weren't chosen "from the foundation of the world" to enter the Kingdom.

I would compare this to a lottery. The government chooses some people to give a few winning lottery tickets to, then circulates the rest. Anyone can get the other winning ones because the government didn't choose specific people to deny them to.

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As a Lutheran while, I appreciate you trying to understand. I think your explanation is very incorrect, and not what we would teach at all. Lutherans teach that man in NO way merits heaven. As I've said previously its a paradox. All those who are or will be saved are chosen from the foundation or the world. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Some of no fault but there own reject Gods grace.

Nova Scotian Boy said:

As a Lutheran while, I appreciate you trying to understand. I think your explanation is very incorrect, and not what we would teach at all. Lutherans teach that man in NO way merits heaven. As I've said previously its a paradox. All those who are or will be saved are chosen from the foundation or the world. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Some of no fault but there own reject Gods grace.

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I don't think we have a mutual understanding on what "merit" means. Aside from that, I was just explaining what the OP referred to as the "Lutheran position", and not trying to explain any universal Lutheran position which probably doesn't exist anyways.

Just to add, in Lutheranism Election and Predestination are understood as Gospel, and thus are a matter of comfort. The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord specifically rejects the idea of Election as God saying "you, you, not you". The point is that we can look to the objective reality of what God has said and done for us and have confidence that we belong to Him--because He chose us. We can know God has chosen us because of our Baptism, we can know God has chosen us because of the preached word of the Gospel which is for us.

The Lutheran doctrine of Election and Predestination is not about some hidden thing God has done where He sorted some into elect and sorted some into not-elect; it's about recognizing that in the objective and revealed Means of Grace we can boldly and confidently trust in Jesus because of the assurance of His word and promise. Baptizmatus Sum, I am baptized. I belong to Christ, and therefore I belong to God. Through no effort or merit of my own; but by the grace of God alone, on Christ's account alone, He rescues me, justifies me, redeems me, and makes me heir and child of God. It is all Jesus. I can trust this because He is trustworthy. I can believe this, because He is faithful and true. Christ died for us, let us therefore believe in Him. God has saved us, we can be sure of this because of Jesus. That's Election.

-CryptoLutheran

Styrmir said:

Hey there. As I understand it Lutherans believe in single predestination, that is, they believe that God has chosen people to be saved but hasn't chosen who's damned. They also believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just some people. How is it possible for those who are not predestined to be saved it they aren't the predestined? They'd have to work towards it, which means that Lutheran theology is self contradictory right? Do those that aren't predestined have a chance of being saved? Please explain this to me, and don't give me some answer about how this isn't supposed to make sense or you just need to trust contradicting Scripture, because I'm not buying it

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Many Christians have been so awed by the word Predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned or chosen or destined. In context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles thought that redemption was only for Jews only. Then Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, and they realized God wanted them to preach the gospel to the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in their God. When Gentiles started to believe, the Jews were displeased and demand that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews were still practising circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid the hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed Peter for that. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who had believed in God for 2000 years
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously excluded from Christ, are now included. Notice how Paul used different pronouns "we" [v 12] and "you" [v 13] as he refer to the Jews and Gentiles respectively.

When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. As such, we need not be thrown off track when we see words such as chosen, destined or predestined. When Paul or Peter said Gentiles are a chosen people, it means that God had chosen to offer them eternal life too; the apostles were not saying that each believer was/is chosen.

roman2819 said:

Many Christians have been so awed by the word Predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned or chosen or destined. In context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles thought that redemption was only for Jews only. Then Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, and they realized God wanted them to preach the gospel to the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in their God. When Gentiles started to believe, the Jews were displeased and demand that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews were still practising circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid the hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed Peter for that. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who had believed in God for 2000 years
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously excluded from Christ, are now included. Notice how Paul used different pronouns "we" [v 12] and "you" [v 13] as he refer to the Jews and Gentiles respectively.

When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. As such, we need not be thrown off track when we see words such as chosen, destined or predestined. When Paul or Peter said Gentiles are a chosen people, it means that God had chosen to offer them eternal life too; the apostles were not saying that each believer was/is chosen.

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Predestined means personal not just categorical. And it is for whom He foreknew, not what he foreknew!

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

sdowney717 said:

Predestined means personal not just categorical. And it is for whom He foreknew, not what he foreknew!

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

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We need to interpret verses and words in the larger context of the Bible. To illustrate the point, consider these 3 verses:

Acts 16:31 -- And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”

Romans 10:9 -- because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:16: For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice that these 3 verses did NOT say that we have to repent in order to be saved. Is belief without repentance sufficient? If someone says that he believes that Jesus existed, without repent of sins, is he redeemed? Or if he believes that Jesus is the Son of God who was resurrected and seated at God's right hand now, does it mean he is redeemed even if he doesn't repent? If he ignore the greater context of Scriptures, and focus on abovementioned two verses only, he can insist that he is correct.

My point is this: It is not about reading words or verses without considering context. If we ignore context, which many people do when reading Scripture then we can say anything, everything, whatever we want. However, if we apply the larger context of the Scripture to interpret verses and words, we will not misinterpret.

Although Romans 8:29 does not say explicitly say that God predestined to offer redemption to the Gentiles, however, both biblical events and other verses (Ephesians 1:12, 13) can guide us to interpret correctly. Ephesians 1:12,13 was talking about real events, that Jews were the first to believe in God, Gentiles had been excluded all along (since Abraham's or David's time), until recently when the apostles preached to the Gentiles?

About the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": When Peter said "you are a chosen people" [1 Peter 2:9], it does not mean that God choose Jason or Susan to be saved ie NOT individual predestination. During biblical times, people wouldn't say that they chose to believe God; instead they said that God chose them. It was a humble way of speaking. Back then, people were much more subservient to God, and it would be arrogant or inappropriate for them to say they chose Him. As time change, languages change too; and today, we don't speak this way anymore. We tend to misinterpret words (such as chosen and predestined) at surface level or literally, which contribute to the confusion that God literally handpick people.

There is really no basis to believe in individual predestination because of insufficient context in the Bible. Jesus never preached that God choose who to redeem. None of the apostles wrote substantially about individual predestination either. If they had, it could be a different story - but the fact is they didn't. The handful of verses with the words "predestined" plus a few other verses are not sufficient to support a theology or theory of individual predestination.

roman2819 said:

We need to interpret verses and words in the larger context of the Bible. To illustrate the point, consider these 3 verses:

Acts 16:31 -- And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”

Romans 10:9 -- because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:16: For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice that these 3 verses did NOT say that we have to repent in order to be saved. Is belief without repentance sufficient? If someone says that he believes that Jesus existed, without repent of sins, is he redeemed? Or if he believes that Jesus is the Son of God who was resurrected and seated at God's right hand now, does it mean he is redeemed even if he doesn't repent? If he ignore the greater context of Scriptures, and focus on abovementioned two verses only, he can insist that he is correct.

My point is this: It is not about reading words or verses without considering context. If we ignore context, which many people do when reading Scripture then we can say anything, everything, whatever we want. However, if we apply the larger context of the Scripture to interpret verses and words, we will not misinterpret.

Although Romans 8:29 does not say explicitly say that God predestined to offer redemption to the Gentiles, however, both biblical events and other verses (Ephesians 1:12, 13) can guide us to interpret correctly. Ephesians 1:12,13 was talking about real events, that Jews were the first to believe in God, Gentiles had been excluded all along (since Abraham's or David's time), until recently when the apostles preached to the Gentiles?

About the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": When Peter said "you are a chosen people" [1 Peter 2:9], it does not mean that God choose Jason or Susan to be saved ie NOT individual predestination. During biblical times, people wouldn't say that they chose to believe God; instead they said that God chose them. It was a humble way of speaking. Back then, people were much more subservient to God, and it would be arrogant or inappropriate for them to say they chose Him. As time change, languages change too; and today, we don't speak this way anymore. We tend to misinterpret words (such as chosen and predestined) at surface level or literally, which contribute to the confusion that God literally handpick people.

There is really no basis to believe in individual predestination because of insufficient context in the Bible. Jesus never preached that God choose who to redeem. None of the apostles wrote substantially about individual predestination either. If they had, it could be a different story - but the fact is they didn't. The handful of verses with the words "predestined" plus a few other verses are not sufficient to support a theology or theory of individual predestination.

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Your not listening to what the Spirit says, your examples say nothing about why someone turns to the Lord and has faith. Those who chose to reject Christ do so as they have not been appointed-chosen to know the truth and be saved.

Acts 13
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

sdowney717 said:

Your not listening to what the Spirit says, your examples say nothing about why someone turns to the Lord and has faith. Those who chose to reject Christ do so as they have not been appointed-chosen to know the truth and be saved.

Acts 13
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

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You are not interpreting in context, nor are you seeing in the light of the Scripture, even though you think you are. You are just going by words . As said last week, do the following verses mean that one only need to believe that Jesus is Son of God, without repentance, because the word "repent" is not there? (which is what I said before).

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

There are many more verses that did not say repent, but are they "in the light of the Scripture"?