Jesus Told Many They Would Live to See His Coming.

Deadworm · Dec 31, 2017

One key to solving the mystery of Jesus' apparently erroneous expection that some of His disciples would live to witness His Second Coming (usually referred to as His Parousia) by Bible scholars) can be discerned once it is recognized that Matthew and Luke both use Mark and Q, an early saying collection used by Matthew and Luke, but not by Mark) as 2 of their Gospel sources. This is universally recognized by both modern and liberal Bible scholars. It is unfortunate the so many evangelical pastors keep this information from their congregations to avoid upsetting them. If your pastor graduated from a quality seminary rather than a less high-powered simplistic Bible school, ask him about this matter. In any case. let's now examine 2 parallel examples of how this helps us solve the problem of Jesus' apparently false expectation:

(1a) Matthew16: 27: For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28: Truly I say to you, There are some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

(1b) Mark 8:38: Whoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. 9:1 And he said to them, Truly I say to you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Matthew interprets Jesus' reference to 'the kingdom of God come with power" to mean "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." He does this to apply 16:27 to the reference to Jesus' Second Coming in 16:27. In this he is mistaken. Matthew overlooks the change of subject indicated by Mark's transitional phrase "And He said to them." This phrase changes the subject from the coming Son of Man to the coming kingdom. In the next verse (9:2) Mark's phrase "6 days later" hints that Jesus' promise of the kingdom coming in power was fulfilled, at least typologically by the Transfiguration, in which Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus on the mountain. It is not Mark's practice to specify the number of days between events; 40 times he connects events with the vague term "immediately." What Mark means is that it took 6 days for Jesus' promise of seeing the kingdom come with power to be fulfilled, at least typologically. This removes the implication that Jesus erred in His prediction.

(2a) Matthew's tendency to rephrase saying to refer to the coming Son of Man helps us solve the mystery of Jesus' apparently erroneous prediction in Matthew 10:23:

"When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. For you will not have going through all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

(2b) This saying is contained in Jesus' mission instruction to His disciples in Q. Luke preserves the original wording in Luke 10:1:

"After this Jesus appointed 70 others and sent them on ahead of him in pairs into every town and place where He Himself was about to come."

Matthew interprets this phrase as a reference to Jesus as the coming Son of Man. This insight helps us understand why Jesus urges them to flee each town that opposes or persecutions their message. They were to set the stage for Jesus' arrival on a teaching and healing mission and the hostility of the locals would make it clear that they would not be reception to Jesus' ministry. By covering as much territory as possible, the disciples would be preparing hearts and expectations in many places for a receptive response to Jesus' ministry.

Much more could be said about these and other Son of Man sayings and scholarly books 700 pages thick have been written on the origin and original use of Jesus' Son of Man references.

Hank77 · Dec 31, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
They didn"t teach your preterist 70AD fulfillment.

I don't need to communicate with someone who calls me a liar. :wave:

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 31, 2017

I am going to post some rather large points about the more difficult verses in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

Mathew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21: 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, look, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It might be helpful to the reader to know that these exact same illustrations are commonly used in the Old Testament to prophesy great days of judgment not related to this one. Things that had come to pass long before the first century. In fact every phrase used in all four accounts above are used in prophecies about Old Testament events long past.

The sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling are common Old Testament illustrations. They were used to prophesy days of judgment that happened long before the first century.

Isaiah's prophecy against Edom and what Nebuchadnezzar will do to them. Notice this uses the exact same illustration as John uses in Revelation does to prophecy the same event Matthew, Mark and Luke do.
Isaiah 34:1 Come near, you nations, to hear; and listen, you people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is on all nations, and his fury on all their armies: he has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down on Idumea, and on the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. AKJV

This is Isaiah's prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon and how the Medo\Persian Empire would conquer it.
Isaiah 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. 2 Lift you up a banner on the high mountain, exalt the voice to them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles. 3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for my anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts musters the host of the battle. 5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. 6 Howl you; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man takes up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. 15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined to them shall fall by the sword. 16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. 18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children. 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelled in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. 21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. 22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged. AKJV

This is Ezekiel's prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon conquering Egypt.
Ezekiel 32:1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him, You are like a young lion of the nations, and you are as a whale in the seas: and you came forth with your rivers, and troubled the waters with your feet, and fouled their rivers. 3 Thus said the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over you with a company of many people; and they shall bring you up in my net. 4 Then will I leave you on the land, I will cast you forth on the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain on you, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with you. 5 And I will lay your flesh on the mountains, and fill the valleys with your height. 6 I will also water with your blood the land wherein you swim, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of you. 7 And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness on your land, said the Lord GOD. 9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many people amazed at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for you, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall. 11 For thus said the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come on you. 12 By the swords of the mighty will I cause your multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed. 13 I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them. 14 Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, said the Lord GOD. 15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD. .......... 32 For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the middle of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, said the Lord GOD. AKJV

Micah's prophecy about Assyria conquering the northern kingdom of Israel.
Micah 1:2 Hear, all you people; listen, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple. 3 For, behold, the LORD comes forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread on the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. 5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? 6 Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof. 7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot. 8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. 9 For her wound is incurable; for it is come to Judah; he is come to the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem.

This is a prophecy of Jeremiah about the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.
Jeremiah 4:5 Declare you in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow you the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defended cities. 6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. 7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make your land desolate; and your cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. 8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. 9 And it shall come to pass at that day, said the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. .....19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart makes a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because you have heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. 20 Destruction on destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. 21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? 22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are silly children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and, see, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, see, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, see, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, see, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus has the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up on the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. 30 And when you are spoiled, what will you do?.....AKJV

The Prophet Joel, even though he is not naming Babylon is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon.
Joel 2:1 Blow you the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD comes, for it is near at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread on the mountains: a great people and a strong; there has not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devours before them; and behind them a flame burns: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yes, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devours the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: 8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall on the sword, they shall not be wounded. 9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run on the wall, they shall climb up on the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executes his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Now these are by no means all of these prophecies. there are a few more on that link. The point is. The language of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is very common Old testament language regarding great days of judgment against various Old Testament nations that long before the New Testament times. it was not talking about the end of the world as we know it then and it is not talking about the end of the world in Jesus. prophecy.

JIMINZ · Dec 31, 2017

Hank77

Doug

.
Two questions for both of you.

1) Who are the Elect spoken of in the Mark and Matt. verses,
2) When ( WERE, ARE) they gathered, (1st. Century, or some time in the future)?

Truth7t7 · Dec 31, 2017

lter said:
All of mankind are children of a Loving God. By faith we may realize this enobleing truth. Jesus commissioned the apostles to go into all of the world and preach the original, pre-cross gospel.

Christianity was considered a small cult inside Judaism for a long time before it became mainstream.

Once again

The Fatherhood Of God, And Brotherhood Of Man, is a false teaching from the occultic "Freemasonry"

All people on this earth are not "Christian Brethren"

Truth7t7 · Dec 31, 2017

Daniel Martinovich said:
I am going to post some rather large points about the more difficult verses in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

Mathew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21: 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, look, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It might be helpful to the reader to know that these exact same illustrations are commonly used in the Old Testament to prophesy great days of judgment not related to this one. Things that had come to pass long before the first century. In fact every phrase used in all four accounts above are used in prophecies about Old Testament events long past.

The sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling are common Old Testament illustrations. They were used to prophesy days of judgment that happened long before the first century.

Isaiah's prophecy against Edom and what Nebuchadnezzar will do to them. Notice this uses the exact same illustration as John uses in Revelation does to prophecy the same event Matthew, Mark and Luke do.
Isaiah 34:1 Come near, you nations, to hear; and listen, you people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is on all nations, and his fury on all their armies: he has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down on Idumea, and on the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. AKJV

This is Isaiah's prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon and how the Medo\Persian Empire would conquer it.
Isaiah 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. 2 Lift you up a banner on the high mountain, exalt the voice to them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles. 3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for my anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts musters the host of the battle. 5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. 6 Howl you; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man takes up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. 15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined to them shall fall by the sword. 16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. 18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children. 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelled in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. 21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. 22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged. AKJV

This is Ezekiel's prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon conquering Egypt.
Ezekiel 32:1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him, You are like a young lion of the nations, and you are as a whale in the seas: and you came forth with your rivers, and troubled the waters with your feet, and fouled their rivers. 3 Thus said the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over you with a company of many people; and they shall bring you up in my net. 4 Then will I leave you on the land, I will cast you forth on the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain on you, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with you. 5 And I will lay your flesh on the mountains, and fill the valleys with your height. 6 I will also water with your blood the land wherein you swim, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of you. 7 And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness on your land, said the Lord GOD. 9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many people amazed at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for you, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall. 11 For thus said the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come on you. 12 By the swords of the mighty will I cause your multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed. 13 I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them. 14 Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, said the Lord GOD. 15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD. .......... 32 For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the middle of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, said the Lord GOD. AKJV

Micah's prophecy about Assyria conquering the northern kingdom of Israel.
Micah 1:2 Hear, all you people; listen, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple. 3 For, behold, the LORD comes forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread on the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. 5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? 6 Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof. 7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot. 8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. 9 For her wound is incurable; for it is come to Judah; he is come to the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem.

This is a prophecy of Jeremiah about the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.
Jeremiah 4:5 Declare you in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow you the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defended cities. 6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. 7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make your land desolate; and your cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. 8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. 9 And it shall come to pass at that day, said the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. .....19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart makes a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because you have heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. 20 Destruction on destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. 21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? 22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are silly children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and, see, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, see, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, see, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, see, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus has the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up on the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. 30 And when you are spoiled, what will you do?.....AKJV

The Prophet Joel, even though he is not naming Babylon is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon.
Joel 2:1 Blow you the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD comes, for it is near at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread on the mountains: a great people and a strong; there has not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devours before them; and behind them a flame burns: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yes, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devours the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: 8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall on the sword, they shall not be wounded. 9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run on the wall, they shall climb up on the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executes his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Now these are by no means all of these prophecies. there are a few more on that link. The point is. The language of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is very common Old testament language regarding great days of judgment against various Old Testament nations that long before the New Testament times. it was not talking about the end of the world as we know it then and it is not talking about the end of the world in Jesus. prophecy.

Your teachings are that of a "Full Preterist" Heretical In My Opinion.

You teach Matthew 24:15 & Matthew 24:21 the abomination of desolation and great tribulation were fulfilled in the 1st century.

You deny a future return of Jesus Christ In Glory Matthew 24:29-31

You Deny a future bodily resurrection of the believer. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Your "Full Preterist" teachings are heretical in my opinion, they are "Banned In Eschatology" check the rules.

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 31, 2017

THE STARS IN THE HEAVENS

Mathew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21: 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, look, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Bible's use of the stars of heaven to illustrate illustrious or notable people, places or things.

Back to Revelation 12 first as it seems to be the most fitting for Jesus's prophecy. The crown of stars the woman, ancient Israel is wearing illustrates the 12 tribes of Israel. Then we have the dragon the represents the Roman Empire empowered by Satan. It uses stars to illustrate the Roman Empire casting down people; or as it says a few verses later those stars could represent the spiritual powers behind people in high places, the devil's messengers or angels. Whatever the exact meaning of the metaphors in this vision is. It renders the idea of the stars of heaven in Jesus's prophecy speaking of literal stars ridiculous.
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In this part of Johns vision seven stars illustrate angels. This is a direct reference to the powers of the unseen world behind the world we can see. In this case seven churches. Just exactly the same way Matthew 24 is using the language:29...... and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 1:16 And he, (Jesus) had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shines in his strength......20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven churches.

Here Jude is using stars to describe false Christians.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.....13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

This prophecy in Daniel follows a timeline that occurs immediately after a prophecy about Herod the Great plus Octavian, Augustus Caesar's conquering of the last remaining section of the Greek empire. It is a prophecy of the first century in Ancient Israel and the one of the prophecies Jesus is quoting in his prophecy about the end of the Old Covenant Age. Verse two uses resurrection metaphorically the same way it is often used in the New Testament to illustrate salvation and judgment. Verse three represents the soul winners, the apostles and other believers reaching the lost. They are illustrated as stars.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

This is Isaiah's prophecy about the fall of Babylon; that incidentally had not even risen against the kingdom of Judah yet. Notice how, just like the book of Revelation states about Rome, which metaphorically is referred to as Babylon. That it is Satan, his evil intent, his manipulative power that is behind the empire of Babylon. Stars here are being used to illustrate Gods people, the prophets, Moses. Or they are being used to illustrate the angels of God in the unseen world behind Israel. One might also ascertain stars are being used to illustrate Gods creation here.
Isaiah 14:4 That you shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, and the scepter of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hinders. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yes, the fir trees rejoice at you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since you are laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming: it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say to you, Are you also become weak as we? are you become like to us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of your viols: the worm is spread under you, and the worms cover you. 12 How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also on the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

God metaphorically uses stars to describe the people of God when speaking to Job.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now your loins like a man; for I will demand of you, and answer you me. 4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding. 5 Who has laid the measures thereof, if you know? or who has stretched the line on it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In Deborah's song about the defeat of Sisera the general of Jabin. She lustrates the Barak and the children of Israel as stars.
Judges 5:1Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying, 2 Praise you the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves. 3 Hear, O you kings; give ear, O you princes; I, even I, will sing to the LORD; I will sing praise to the LORD God of Israel. 4LORD, when you went out of Seir, when you marched out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped, the clouds also dropped water. 5 The mountains melted from before the LORD, even that Sinai from before the LORD God of Israel.......20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

The fact that the past few generations of western Christians take these metaphors about the stars in the heavens in Jesus's prophecy and Johns Revelation as literal shows how un\mis-educated we are as a people. Any qualified English teacher in high school or college. Anyone with a doctorate in the reading and writing of literature, if they were not infected with this strange religious bias would immediately be able to tell you Jesus's words about stars were being used metaphorically. If some secular institution were to use Matthew 24 or Mark 13 as part of a grammar\literature class on a test to identify subject matter, context, writing styles. Then if some Christian student answered on that test that the stars of heaven falling was meant to be literal; they would fail the test. The student may object but the teacher would simply answer. "This was not a test on what your Christian denomination believes. It is a literature test and by all the applicable rules of literature this is descriptive writing using metaphors and not expository writing using literal language to describe an event.
We can see just how great a spiritual battle this is for the hearts and minds of people by the fact that there are 100's of teachers with doctorates in the language arts in Christian universities and ministerial training schools who teach their students otherwise! People who should by all accounts know better but are spiritually unable to use what their own education correctly taught them to properly identify the way in which the language is being used. They seem to miss the entire subject matter of the discourse which is when the buildings and city they were looking at would be destroyed. The spiritual battle to properly understand scripture and Bible prophecy is so great that I can easily imagine confusion entering into the minds and hearts of people that are reading this. Bad feelings, a fearful heart, even a grieving in the spirit when confronted with the reality of these words being metaphorical which is contrary to what you always believed. But feelings, no matter how strong do not dictate the truth! That is the devil attempting to use your own feelings to get you to hold to the misinformation you have always held to be true.....because the truth will set you free.
All scripture references were AKJV

ebedmelech · Dec 31, 2017

seventysevens said:
Since satan is still free to roam and deceive who he can -then no we are not yet in the one thousand year reign:
Rev20
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.
.........those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I encourage you to read John 12:31, 32 because Satan is cast out of heaven to earth, which is also pointed out in Revelation 12:7-13. This was going on in heaven as Christ was headed to the cross.
Satan is thrown down to earth because he can no longer accuse the brethren as Jesus has made atonement for our sins.

Just because Satan is on earth doesn't mean Christ is not reigning. Remember that God's salvation plan will be completed and Satan can only go as far as Christ allows him to. That's because Jesus reigns.

Jesus was given all power and authority after He was raised...so how is it Jesus doesn't reign?

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 31, 2017

THE Powers of the Heavens

Mathew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21: 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, look, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Some examples of the powers of the heavens. Or the unseen world behind them.

Ephesians 5;10. Finally, my brothers, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the trickery of the devil. 12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.
Luke 10:17. And the seventy (disciples) returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subjugated to us through your name. 18. He said to them, I saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19. Behold, I give you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Ephesians 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: ........18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints is, 19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Ephesians 2:6. And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 3:10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the multifarious wisdom of God, 11. According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Daniel 10:5. Then I lifted up my eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, with a belt fine gold of Uphaz: 6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in color to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. 7. And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but they began to tremble and shake, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8. Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for I turned deathly pale , and was became helpless. 9. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. 10. And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. 11. And he said to me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright: for to you am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood trembling. 12. Then said he to me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and deny yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I am come for your words. 13. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14. Now I am come to make you understand what shall befall your people in the latter days: for the vision is for many days ahead. 15. And when he had spoken such words to me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb. 16. And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spoke, and said to him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength. 17. For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. 18. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, 19. And said, O man greatly loved, fear not: peace be to you, be strong, yes, be strong. And when he had spoken to me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for you hast strengthened me. 20. Then said he, do you know why I come to you? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Greece shall come. 21. But I will show you that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holds with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Truth7t7 · Dec 31, 2017

Your teachings are that of a "Full Preterist" Heretical In My Opinion.

You teach Matthew 24:15 & Matthew 24:21 the abomination of desolation and great tribulation were fulfilled in the 1st century.

You deny a future return of Jesus Christ In Glory Matthew 24:29-31

You Deny a future bodily resurrection of the believer. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Your "Full Preterist" teachings are heretical in my opinion, they are "Banned In Eschatology" check the rules

Daniel Martinovich said:
THE STARS IN THE HEAVENS

Mathew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21: 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, look, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Bible's use of the stars of heaven to illustrate illustrious or notable people, places or things.

Back to Revelation 12 first as it seems to be the most fitting for Jesus's prophecy. The crown of stars the woman, ancient Israel is wearing illustrates the 12 tribes of Israel. Then we have the dragon the represents the Roman Empire empowered by Satan. It uses stars to illustrate the Roman Empire casting down people; or as it says a few verses later those stars could represent the spiritual powers behind people in high places, the devil's messengers or angels. Whatever the exact meaning of the metaphors in this vision is. It renders the idea of the stars of heaven in Jesus's prophecy speaking of literal stars ridiculous.
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In this part of Johns vision seven stars illustrate angels. This is a direct reference to the powers of the unseen world behind the world we can see. In this case seven churches. Just exactly the same way Matthew 24 is using the language:29...... and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 1:16 And he, (Jesus) had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shines in his strength......20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven churches.

Here Jude is using stars to describe false Christians.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.....13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

This prophecy in Daniel follows a timeline that occurs immediately after a prophecy about Herod the Great plus Octavian, Augustus Caesar's conquering of the last remaining section of the Greek empire. It is a prophecy of the first century in Ancient Israel and the one of the prophecies Jesus is quoting in his prophecy about the end of the Old Covenant Age. Verse two uses resurrection metaphorically the same way it is often used in the New Testament to illustrate salvation and judgment. Verse three represents the soul winners, the apostles and other believers reaching the lost. They are illustrated as stars.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

This is Isaiah's prophecy about the fall of Babylon; that incidentally had not even risen against the kingdom of Judah yet. Notice how, just like the book of Revelation states about Rome, which metaphorically is referred to as Babylon. That it is Satan, his evil intent, his manipulative power that is behind the empire of Babylon. Stars here are being used to illustrate Gods people, the prophets, Moses. Or they are being used to illustrate the angels of God in the unseen world behind Israel. One might also ascertain stars are being used to illustrate Gods creation here.
Isaiah 14:4 That you shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, and the scepter of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hinders. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yes, the fir trees rejoice at you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since you are laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming: it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say to you, Are you also become weak as we? are you become like to us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of your viols: the worm is spread under you, and the worms cover you. 12 How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also on the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

God metaphorically uses stars to describe the people of God when speaking to Job.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now your loins like a man; for I will demand of you, and answer you me. 4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding. 5 Who has laid the measures thereof, if you know? or who has stretched the line on it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In Deborah's song about the defeat of Sisera the general of Jabin. She lustrates the Barak and the children of Israel as stars.
Judges 5:1Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying, 2 Praise you the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves. 3 Hear, O you kings; give ear, O you princes; I, even I, will sing to the LORD; I will sing praise to the LORD God of Israel. 4LORD, when you went out of Seir, when you marched out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped, the clouds also dropped water. 5 The mountains melted from before the LORD, even that Sinai from before the LORD God of Israel.......20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

The fact that the past few generations of western Christians take these metaphors about the stars in the heavens in Jesus's prophecy and Johns Revelation as literal shows how un\mis-educated we are as a people. Any qualified English teacher in high school or college. Anyone with a doctorate in the reading and writing of literature, if they were not infected with this strange religious bias would immediately be able to tell you Jesus's words about stars were being used metaphorically. If some secular institution were to use Matthew 24 or Mark 13 as part of a grammar\literature class on a test to identify subject matter, context, writing styles. Then if some Christian student answered on that test that the stars of heaven falling was meant to be literal; they would fail the test. The student may object but the teacher would simply answer. "This was not a test on what your Christian denomination believes. It is a literature test and by all the applicable rules of literature this is descriptive writing using metaphors and not expository writing using literal language to describe an event.
We can see just how great a spiritual battle this is for the hearts and minds of people by the fact that there are 100's of teachers with doctorates in the language arts in Christian universities and ministerial training schools who teach their students otherwise! People who should by all accounts know better but are spiritually unable to use what their own education correctly taught them to properly identify the way in which the language is being used. They seem to miss the entire subject matter of the discourse which is when the buildings and city they were looking at would be destroyed. The spiritual battle to properly understand scripture and Bible prophecy is so great that I can easily imagine confusion entering into the minds and hearts of people that are reading this. Bad feelings, a fearful heart, even a grieving in the spirit when confronted with the reality of these words being metaphorical which is contrary to what you always believed. But feelings, no matter how strong do not dictate the truth! That is the devil attempting to use your own feelings to get you to hold to the misinformation you have always held to be true.....because the truth will set you free.
All scripture references were AKJV

JIMINZ · Dec 31, 2017

seventysevens said:
You need to include where Jesus says Boldly if it were not for Him cutting those days short No flesh would survive , that means Jesus returns and puts an end to the Great Trib , and then His Kingdom is established physically , Not happened yet! amazing how people leave off the part that renders their point moot

.
That's a pretty good assumption on your part, but, just to keep things Clear.

Where does it say, what you said above?

I can't find it in the verse.

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 31, 2017

The use of the stars of heaven to illustrate illustrious or notable people, places or things is common in scripture. The English language who's development was heavily influenced by the Bible is replete these types of metaphors. The powers of the heavens being shaken makes it obvious that stars are being used illustratively to describe people; leaders. luminaires, heads of families, people in high places or the spiritual powers that are behind them. Likewise, just like in other prophecy, mountains and islands in Revelation 6:14 is also being used the same way; to illustrate people and nations. The illustration of the heavens being rolled up as a scroll is particularly interesting. Remember this was used in Isaiah 34's prophecy, (bottom of the page) about Edom being destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. My guess would be that it illustrates the finality of something. In this case the end of the Old Covenant age that had been being prophesied about all the way back in the book of Genesis.
Mathew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21: 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, look, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Bible's use of mountains and islands to illustrate nations, peoples, powers, rulers etc.

Psalm 72:2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. 4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 41: 13 For I the LORD thy God will hold your right hand, saying to you, Fear not; I will help you. 14 Fear not, you worm Jacob, and you men of Israel; I will help you, says the LORD, and you redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. 15 Behold, I will make you a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: you shall thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. 16 You shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and you shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shall glory in the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yes, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies. 14 I have held my peace a long time; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. 15 I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. 16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do to them, and not forsake them.
Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, your transgressions, and, as a cloud, your sins: return to me; for I have redeemed you. 23 Sing, O you heavens; for the LORD has done it: shout, you lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, you mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD has redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
Isaiah 55: 11 So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12 For you shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.
Amos 3:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, says the LORD that does this. 13 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that sows seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Habakkuk 3:2 O LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy. 3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. 4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power. 5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet. 6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

There are dozens of other verses that use mountains illustratively. Especially if you include all of those speaking about the mountain of the Lord that mount Zion in Jerusalem was a metaphor of.

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 31, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
Your teachings are that of a "Full Preterist" Heretical In My Opinion.

You teach Matthew 24:15 & Matthew 24:21 the abomination of desolation and great tribulation were fulfilled in the 1st century.

You deny a future return of Jesus Christ In Glory Matthew 24:29-31

You Deny a future bodily resurrection of the believer. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Your "Full Preterist" teachings are heretical in my opinion, they are "Banned In Eschatology" check the rules

That's your whole point isn't it? To somehow get me banned and your not afraid to lie to do it because I'm effective.

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 31, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
Your teachings are that of a "Full Preterist" Heretical In My Opinion.

You teach Matthew 24:15 & Matthew 24:21 the abomination of desolation and great tribulation were fulfilled in the 1st century.

You deny a future return of Jesus Christ In Glory Matthew 24:29-31

You Deny a future bodily resurrection of the believer. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Your "Full Preterist" teachings are heretical in my opinion, they are "Banned In Eschatology" check the rules.

Like I said on another reply. That was the reason for your inquisition type questions that demanded yes or no answers. To be able to claim I'm a preterist so you can get me banned. Well I'm not since I don't believe all prophecy....not even all end time prophecy was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem. Your not afraid to lie about that though because I'm effective and that is what really bothers you.

JIMINZ · Dec 31, 2017

HAPPY

NEW

YEAR ! !

Hank77 · Dec 31, 2017

seventysevens said:
You are entitled to your opinion as is anyone else - but if you look at the list of things that Jesus said will happen and think they all have happened already then you have to account for Jesus appearing in the sky where everyone can see him which cannot be anything other than a literal physical appearance , and there is more to the story than what is in that book - even when people want to say that the abomination has happened in order for it to have really happened there would be proof outside of the bible showing it has happened and there is none

And you are welcome to yours.

JIMINZ · Dec 31, 2017

Thanks Hank,
Did you see my post #184?

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 31, 2017

JIMINZ said:
Hank77

Douggg

.
Two questions for both of you.

1) Who are the Elect spoken of in the Luke and Matt. verses,
2) When ( WERE, ARE) they gathered, (1st. Century, or some time in the future)?

Mind if I butt in? I think all of the above fit just fine. The Jewish believers escape from the judgment of the first century. Or just the fact that they became believers. Or the great harvest of souls that occurred in the Roman Empire after 70 AD

Matthew 24:31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21:28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws close.

From the article: The End Of An Age
There are two things being spoken of here. One is the deliverance of the believers from this cataclysm. Which seems to be Luke's focus. Telling them to keep their eye's, their hearts on heavens means of deliverance rather than on man's means. Matthew and Mark, perhaps without even knowing what they were emphasizing were saying the same thing John's revelation said. That after the war and the destruction of Jerusalem. Not only would the saints be delivered from it; but afterwards there would be a great harvest of souls in the Roman empire. You can see this by going back one more to time to these corresponding verses in Revelation. Specifically Revelation 7:9-17 and starting at Revelation 14:6.
Many pop culture end time prophecy teachings try to equate these verses with their teachings about a great catching away or "rapture " of believers at the end of the world. The word is the Greek word for gather not catching away which is the one referred to as rapture. This obviously fits the context of the prophecy much better with the idea of those gathered illustrating millions of "elect" who accepted Christ in the world during and after this time period. If one wants to keep these verses specifically in the context of the war in Judea though. Revelation 7: 1-9 references the believers in Judea who were "sealed" as "the elect" and delivered from that destruction.
This prophecy is practical in nature. It is not written just to confirm that Jesus is the Messiah, and the Bible is the Word of God by demonstrating Gods miraculous ability to know the future. It would seem a main reason for his prophetic discourse is to insure that no believers perish in the great judgment at the end of the age. As Abraham of old said when talking to Jehovah the Word about the impending judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah: Genesis 18:25. Far be it from you to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should fare as the wicked, Far be it from you: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? The point alludes to why they were gathered, to be preserved, and to not suffer the punishment that was to come on the land. Luke uses the word redemption to describe this, that those redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ escape this judgment handed down in Matthew 23:35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar. 36. Truly I say to you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that murder the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! 38. Behold, your house is left to you desolate.
There are also more references to this gathering in the gospels in the form of parables such as: Matthew 13:47. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48. Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49. So shall it be at the consummation of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. The fire he is referring to is this war and the destruction of Jerusalem. Christ's parables describe different aspects of the kingdom of God, you can know that one is talking about the end of the 1st covenant age because it refers directly to it. It also fits the scenario of this prophecy being written about perfectly. Here is another one. (That has a separate article about it.)
Matthew 13:24 He (Jesus) parable put forth another parable to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like a man which planted good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and planted tares (Darnel) among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? where did the tares come from? 28 He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, do you want us to go and gather them up? 29 But he said, No; lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn..... 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came to him, saying, Declare to us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said to them, He that planted the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.
All of the prophecies about the end of this age and what would occur are quite uniform as is this one written by Daniel. It is in a timeline that occurs at the beginning period of Rome's empire and its first emperor; and shortly after the death of Herod the Great. Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

PeaceJoyLove · Dec 31, 2017

(I tried to read your link but found the format hard on the eyes...)

The kingdom of heaven is within you/me/us. It is not an over here or over there by observation with the five senses. HIS appearing is being revealed within...inner truth of the spiritual being we have always been since the beginning. What changed was our perception as in the question asked of Adam, "Where art thou?" and the promise we would be made blind to see (again) the truth we have always been...a son (no gender implied)

The deep slumber and eyesight change in the garden is being restored...Paul said "Christ in you, the hope of glory." As long as we see the spirit of Christ as something separate/outside of our being, we 'see'/perceive dimly (at first), then face to face...know as we have always been known. For God fills ALL IN ALL...though for a time, we perceive lack...

And to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,...

Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

but be transformed by the renewal of your mind...

Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Colter · Dec 31, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
Once again

The Fatherhood Of God, And Brotherhood Of Man, is a false teaching from the occultic "Freemasonry"

All people on this earth are not "Christian Brethren"

I never said that all people of the earth are "Christian Brethren". There is only one God, he is the creator of all the earth, of ALL people. The Kingdom of Heaven is comprised of those who by faith realize the Fatherhood of God. Not everyone knows it obveously. One day the original gospel will subdue all of the world. If that's Freemasonry, then Jesus was also a Freemason in addition to being a carpenter.

Jesus Told Many They Would Live to See His Coming.

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