Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

seeking.IAM · Dec 31, 2017

I still call revisionist history until shown a scholarly source that is more than speculation about what was served at Jesus' Last Supper.

1stcenturylady · Dec 31, 2017

seeking.IAM said:
I still call revisionist history until shown a scholarly source that is more than speculation about what was served at Jesus' Last Supper.

Did you even read the OP???

seeking.IAM · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Did you even read the OP???

I sure did. Show me the source citation for what is written. I don't know "Strong's" and until I do, I find it of uncertain credibility.

seeking.IAM · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
The Lord's Supper is based on the Passover Seder. That is what this thread is about. "What type of wine was actually used during the ancient Passover Seder?" It was pure grape juice. There was also no leaven in the bread. We are talking about the Lord's body and blood, not 2000 years of erroneous tradition.

Erroneous tradition? This is another case of a church organized later in the history of Christianity telling a church organized earlier in the history of Christianity that they've been doing it wrong for 1,900 years. That doesn't pass the sniff test.

Albion · Dec 31, 2017

If you go online, you can find a large number of articles, most of them very detailed, that deal with this subject. None that I read said that Passover wine was supposed to be unfermented. Considering the minutia included in some of these articles, I would have thought that this fact, if true, would have come in for some mention.

Those that claimed it was unfermented made the claim that Jesus would never have touched wine, not that there was a regulation against using fermented wine for the Seder.

More to the point, what I learned was that if the Passover was in the spring (as we all think it to have been) there would have been no unfermented wine available because of the annual schedule of harvesting and processing. In short, none of the available wine would have been produced more recently than six months or so earlier...and would have been, therefore, at least somewhat fermented.

1stcenturylady · Dec 31, 2017

seeking.IAM said:
I sure did. Show me the source citation for what is written. I don't know "Strong's" and until I do, I find it of uncertain credibility.

Then I can't help you. If you care and are truly "seeking", you'll have to do your own research.

1stcenturylady · Dec 31, 2017

seeking.IAM said:
Erroneous tradition? This is another case of a church organized later in the history of Christianity telling a church organized earlier in the history of Christianity that they've been doing it wrong for 1,900 years. That doesn't pass the sniff test.

Just because praying to dead saints and Mary has been practiced for centuries doesn't make it scripturally legitimate.

dqhall · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
A few months ago there was a new thread about whether or not Jesus turned water into fermented wine, or grape juice. The poster claimed grape juice. Many disagreed. That post is now closed as it is old and had no responses for a long time. While I still believe the wine was fermented, it made me wonder about our Lord's Supper. Should that wine be grape juice or fermented wine (Mormons use water). What I found has to do with what kind of wine was used by Jews during Passover and the Seder meal. I was astonished to find it was grape juice, called "new wine." Here is something I just found and thought I would share. Note, this is ONLY at Passover, not for regular meals. There the wine was fermented.

There are two Hebrew used translated as "wine" in our English
Bible. The first word is the Strong's word (3196) and is the Hebrew
word, "yayin". This is alcoholic wine.

The second word is the Strong's word (8492). It is the Hebrew
word "tiyrosh". This is non-alcoholic grapejuice or sweet wine. This
is the type of wine that would have been used at Passover -
non-alcoholic wine. This kind of wine is often called in the Bible
"new wine".

While "Yayin" is declared "kosher for Passover" today,
Yeshua/Jesus would have partook of "Tiyrosh" at His seder. This is the
sweet non-alcoholic wine that is called in the Bible "new wine" and
"sweet wine". "Tiyrosh" is associated with the outpouring of God's
Holy Spirit.

The contrast between "Yayin" and "Tiyrosh" can be seen in
Joel. In Joel 1:5 it is written:

"Awake, ye drunkards and weep and howl, all ye drinkers of wine
(Yayin) ..."

In Joel 2:18-19, 24:

"Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea,
the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send the
corn and wine (Tiyrosh) and oil and ye shall be satisfied ... and the
floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine
(Tiyrosh) and oil"

In Isaiah 65:8 it is written:

"Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine (Tiyrosh) is found in the
cluster ..."

In Proverbs 20:1 it is written:

"Wine (Yayin) is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise"

So, we can see in these passages the contrast between
"Yayin" (alcoholic wine) which is used in a negative connotation and
"Tiyrosh" (non-alcoholic sweet, new wine) which is spoken of in a
positive connotation. Most assuredly, Yeshua/Jesus would have drank of
the "sweet wine" or "Tiyrosh".

The Talmud Pesachim states that the Jews were to drink four cups of wine for the Passover Seder.
Parts of the Talmud bear witness of times before the first century. Much of it was thought to have been prepared by the end of the third century. Modern Jewish authorities state that either grape juice or fermented wine may be used for the Seder, but most prefer fermented wine. Some of the Jews use small wine cups and spread their festive drinking over the course of a long meal.

The Passover is in the spring. Grapes were harvested in September and October. The grape juice would have likely fermented or been spoiled by bacteria over the course of months as they did not know about pasteurization until later. They lacked sanitary bottling conditions and did not have refrigeration. Alcohol kills bacteria and prevents bacterial spoilage. Even then, wine jars were sealed to the best of their ability and stored in cool places. Archaeologists found shallow "wine cellar" caves dug out of the soft limestone at Gibeon. They found pottery wine jars in the cellars inscribed with the Hebrew characters for "Gibeon." This part of Gibeon was destroyed before the Babylonian exile. The contents of the jars evaporated long ago.

A Harvard study showed one serving of alcohol a day actually makes one healthier and contributes to longevity. Too much alcohol leads to trouble and early death. Drunkenness is forbidden in the Bible.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Okay, thanks. So what about the wedding feast. Do you still say Jesus made water into new wine/pure grape juice?

Yes. Here are:

Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus's Miracle Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):

In fact, if Jesus made alcoholic wine He would have broken Scripture in a number of places and he would have encouraged future generations of alcoholics to have the green light that it is okay to drink (Whereby they would slip back into drinking themselves to death). Anyways, here are 6 reasons in the Bible that make it absolutely clear that Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine.

#1. Jesus's Pure Blood is likened to the Pure Wine that He made.
Jesus's blood washes away our sins. Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Jesus says He is the bread of life and that we are to eat of his flesh and blood. Jesus is life. However, alcohol is not a product of life but it is a picture or symbol of death because it is a byproduct of death and not life. This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice and it was worthy of reflecting his glory in Him being the perfect, sinless Son of God. "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."(Deuteronomy 32:14).

#2. Woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.
"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also," (Habakkuk 2:15). If Jesus gave strong drink to his fellow neighbors here, he would be under the woe of Habakkuk 2:15. This would not be a blessing for Jesus but it would be a curse if he were to disobey this part of Scripture.

#3. Jesus is a King (And wine is not for kings).
Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advice or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#4. Warnings against Alcohol.
Wine is a mocker (Proverbs 20:1). Strong drink is raging (Proverbs 20:1). Whoever is deceived by it is not wise (Proverbs 20:1). Wine bites like a serpent and stings like an adder (Proverbs 23:32). Do not look upon wine when it is red in the cup and when it moves itself aright (Proverbs 23:31). You have not eaten bread, neither have you drunk wine or strong drink: that you might know that I am the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:6). Who has woe? who has sorrow? who has contentions? who has babbling? who has wounds without cause? who has redness of eyes? (Proverbs 23:29). They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (Proverbs 23:30).

#5. If Jesus did get people drunk (It would be a sin) & They would no longer be Sober.
Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

#6. Christ set a good example by His miracle.
The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.

Therefore, Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 31, 2017

dqhall said:
A Harvard study

'nuff said.

dqhall · Dec 31, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Yes. Here are:

Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus's Miracle Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):

In fact, if Jesus made alcoholic wine He would have broken Scripture in a number of places and he would have encouraged future generations of alcoholics to have the green light that it is okay to drink (Whereby they would slip back into drinking themselves to death). Anyways, here are 6 reasons in the Bible that make it absolutely clear that Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine.

#1. Jesus's Pure Blood is likened to the Pure Wine that He made.
Jesus's blood washes away our sins. Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Jesus says He is the bread of life and that we are to eat of his flesh and blood. Jesus is life. However, alcohol is not a product of life but it is a picture or symbol of death because it is a byproduct of death and not life. This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice and it was worthy of reflecting his glory in Him being the perfect, sinless Son of God. "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."(Deuteronomy 32:14).

#2. Woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.
"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also," (Habakkuk 2:15). If Jesus gave strong drink to his fellow neighbors here, he would be under the woe of Habakkuk 2:15. This would not be a blessing for Jesus but it would be a curse if he were to disobey this part of Scripture.

#3. Jesus is a King (And wine is not for kings).
Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advice or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#4. Warnings against Alcohol.
Wine is a mocker (Proverbs 20:1). Strong drink is raging (Proverbs 20:1). Whoever is deceived by it is not wise (Proverbs 20:1). Wine bites like a serpent and stings like an adder (Proverbs 23:32). Do not look upon wine when it is red in the cup and when it moves itself aright (Proverbs 23:31). You have not eaten bread, neither have you drunk wine or strong drink: that you might know that I am the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:6). Who has woe? who has sorrow? who has contentions? who has babbling? who has wounds without cause? who has redness of eyes? (Proverbs 23:29). They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (Proverbs 23:30).

#5. If Jesus did get people drunk (It would be a sin) & They would no longer be Sober.
Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

#6. Christ set a good example by His miracle.
The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.

Therefore, Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!

Wine is purer than cholera tainted water used by primitive communities.

You cannot keep milk long without it spoiling. Then it tastes so bad you do not want to drink it. Grape juice is also perishable.

1 Timothy 5:23 "Be no longer a drinker of water only, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities."

People did not have as much health knowledge then as they do now. It is possible for a man to drink a glass or two of wine a day without sinning. If a man drinks more, then he gets in trouble. Some medicines are very effective in small quantities, but can kill if a person takes more pills than prescribed. A higher dosage does not always mean more cure.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 31, 2017

Promoting man's ways, gentile, heathen, other nations ways,
is not
permitted by the Savior Jesus.
YHWH even says NOT to study the nations ways.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2017

dqhall said:
Wine is purer than cholera tainted water used by primitive communities.

You cannot keep milk long without it spoiling. Then it tastes so bad you do not want to drink it. Grape juice is also perishable.

1 Timothy 5:23 "Be no longer a drinker of water only, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities."

People did not have as much health knowledge then as they do now. It is possible for a man to drink a glass or two of wine a day without sinning. If a man drinks more, then he gets in trouble. Some medicines are very effective in small quantities, but can kill if a person takes more pills than prescribed. A higher dosage does not always mean more cure.

People were smarter in the past than most people actually think. There are actual historical accounts or records of cultures preserving grape juice. While there were different methods of preserving grape juice, the wine the Israelites grape was a diluted wine. Wine was commonly stored in an undiluted alcoholic state and it would be diluted with water. Only barbarians would drink undiluted fully fermented wine.

Here are....

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.

Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I don't know about romanticism, but it should be noted what is TRUTH. Which is why they also used unleavened bread!

Yes, if God's Word is true and clear on the teaching of the type of bread and beverage used for the Passover (and I believe it is), then we can then come up with intelligent educated guesses as to why people do not want to hear what God's Word says on this matter. Romanticism is as it sounds. When a person is romantic with another person, they have an affection for them. The same is true with having a romanticism involving a particular thing like wine. In fact, wine is often used between couples who want to be romantic with each other.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
A few months ago there was a new thread about whether or not Jesus turned water into fermented wine, or grape juice. The poster claimed grape juice. Many disagreed. That post is now closed as it is old and had no responses for a long time. While I still believe the wine was fermented, it made me wonder about our Lord's Supper. Should that wine be grape juice or fermented wine (Mormons use water). What I found has to do with what kind of wine was used by Jews during Passover and the Seder meal. I was astonished to find it was grape juice, called "new wine." Here is something I just found and thought I would share. Note, this is ONLY at Passover, not for regular meals. There the wine was fermented.

Yeshua did not celebrate Passover that year since He died when the lambs died.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
The Lord's Supper with Jesus and His disciples was the Passover Seder

No it wasn't...

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
The Lord's Supper is based on the Passover Seder. That is what this thread is about. "What type of wine was actually used during the ancient Passover Seder?" It was pure grape juice. There was also no leaven in the bread. We are talking about the Lord's body and blood, not 2000 years of erroneous tradition.

The Last Supper was not during the days of unleavened...

Anguspure · Dec 31, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
A few months ago there was a new thread about whether or not Jesus turned water into fermented wine, or grape juice. The poster claimed grape juice. Many disagreed. That post is now closed as it is old and had no responses for a long time. While I still believe the wine was fermented, it made me wonder about our Lord's Supper. Should that wine be grape juice or fermented wine (Mormons use water). What I found has to do with what kind of wine was used by Jews during Passover and the Seder meal. I was astonished to find it was grape juice, called "new wine." Here is something I just found and thought I would share. Note, this is ONLY at Passover, not for regular meals. There the wine was fermented.

There are two Hebrew used translated as "wine" in our English
Bible. The first word is the Strong's word (3196) and is the Hebrew
word, "yayin". This is alcoholic wine.

The second word is the Strong's word (8492). It is the Hebrew
word "tiyrosh". This is non-alcoholic grapejuice or sweet wine. This
is the type of wine that would have been used at Passover -
non-alcoholic wine. This kind of wine is often called in the Bible
"new wine".

While "Yayin" is declared "kosher for Passover" today,
Yeshua/Jesus would have partook of "Tiyrosh" at His seder. This is the
sweet non-alcoholic wine that is called in the Bible "new wine" and
"sweet wine". "Tiyrosh" is associated with the outpouring of God's
Holy Spirit.

The contrast between "Yayin" and "Tiyrosh" can be seen in
Joel. In Joel 1:5 it is written:

"Awake, ye drunkards and weep and howl, all ye drinkers of wine
(Yayin) ..."

In Joel 2:18-19, 24:

"Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea,
the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send the
corn and wine (Tiyrosh) and oil and ye shall be satisfied ... and the
floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine
(Tiyrosh) and oil"

In Isaiah 65:8 it is written:

"Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine (Tiyrosh) is found in the
cluster ..."

In Proverbs 20:1 it is written:

"Wine (Yayin) is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise"

So, we can see in these passages the contrast between
"Yayin" (alcoholic wine) which is used in a negative connotation and
"Tiyrosh" (non-alcoholic sweet, new wine) which is spoken of in a
positive connotation. Most assuredly, Yeshua/Jesus would have drank of
the "sweet wine" or "Tiyrosh".

What about Coca-Cola? Can we use that? Or perhaps Pepsi is more suited.

Anguspure · Dec 31, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
All wine back then was at least somewhat alcoholic. Grapes naturally ferment into wine unless pasteurized, a process that did not exist back then. And grape juice will do so quickly without any needed intervention, since pressed grape juice naturally contains alcohol-producing yeasts.

For the purposes of our sacrament, the exact content of alcohol does not matter, but traditionally we prefer to use naturally fermented wine.

It's not clear that Jesus Last Supper was a Jewish seder, even if some of the elements are similar. Scholars disagree about this point. It's not really relevant to our sacrament.

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
(Romans 14)

1stcenturylady · Dec 31, 2017

Anguspure said:
What about Coca-Cola? Can we use that? Or perhaps Pepsi is more suited.

How old are you? Two?

Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

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