Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all

ClementofA

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Are you now suggesting that if we don't meet your exact criteria for refuting this we should just say nothing, even though some feel this could lead well meaning people down a very very wrong road only to catch them by surprise in the end?

As already stated, the criteria is people who claim Mt.7:13-14 as a "proof text". Therefore no other passages are pertinent to the point. Except parallel passages, if any, & the like.

Nobody can stop others from posting anything in this thread.
People, yourself included, are continuing to do so even after reading my requests.

As i've said already i have no intentions of answering off topic posts.
 
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This thread is only for discussing Mt.7:13-14 as an alleged "proof text" refuting universalism. No other Scripture passages or arguments allegedly opposing universalism will be considered relevant to this topic or answered herein. Not by me, anyway. Please stay on topic or refrain from posting. Thank you.



I'll stick with the inspired Word of God through the apostle Paul, rather than your erroneous opinion of Jesus' words:

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Actually both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!


Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.


"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter
(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Hell is Payback


*********************************************


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"No other Scripture passages or arguments allegedly opposing universalism will be considered relevant to this topic or answered herein" This is a redflag statement for those of you wanting to know how to identify those who spread false doctrine. You should always be on guard when someone asks you not to seek out other passages of scripture to place context on a particular passage. Universalism is FALSE DOCTRINE, a product of Satan himself to mislead people into believing God's laws are no longer important and no consequences exist for those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and the need to repent of our sins. When someone uses 2 or 3 verses of scripture then backfills with text from other documents, man made ideologies, and various modern translations they are using a tactic as old as Satan himself.
 
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Brokenhill

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OP,
My following questions have everything to do with Matthew 7:13-14

1. Are you an ancient Greek scholar? Do you have the skills to translate the original manuscripts into modern English? Or even do anything remotely close?

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I know that just because a word is in present tense that doesn't necessarily mean that it constricts the application to a soon-ending time period.

Matthew 7:21-23 (Analytical Literal Translation, 3rd edition...inspired by YLT):
"Not every one saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father, the [One] in [the] heavens. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord' we prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and did many miraculous works in Your name, did we not?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; be departing from Me, the ones practicing lawlessness!'

He's talking about a FUTURE date and yet uses PRESENT tense verbs!
So we see that just because He does that it does not mean that He's only talking about the generation He is physically speaking to.
So that point you made is moot.

So going back to Matthew 7:13-14, it should be understood as regarding the final judgment. The context supports that view (see also vs. 19).

________

It's very dangerous to use lexicons as proof-texts as well. Committees of professionals in ancient Hebrew/Greek translate the Bible for a reason...because it's a weighty task--a layman with a lexicon isn't going to cut it.
 
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ClementofA

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You should always be on guard when someone asks you not to seek out other passages of scripture to place context on a particular passage.

You missed the point. Please read the thread. For example the OP says:

This thread is only for discussing Mt.7:13-14 as an alleged "proof text" refuting universalism. No other Scripture passages or arguments allegedly opposing universalism will be considered relevant to this topic or answered herein. Not by me, anyway. Please stay on topic or refrain from posting. Thank you.

And from post 26:

The topic is in the title of this thread.

Why not start your own topic if you want to talk about something else? I'm quite sure i'll be able to refute any objection you have to universalism.

Do you believe Mt.7:13-14 refutes universalism. Try to stay on the topic.

Doing otherwise is poor etiquette & wastes people's time who are interested in the topic of the thread, not your off topic comments.

I see people posting off topic comments often in threads here.

Probably almost every possible objection to universalism has been addressed before by myself or others on this forum. Why not do a search if you're interested in a specific topic, or read some of the free-for-all universalism threads.

And post 20:

If i had wanted another thread where everyone was posting anything for or against UR, i'd have titled this thread something like "Is Universalism True?"

If you think "reprobate" disproves universalism on its own as a "proof text", why don't you start your own thread titled "universalism proven wrong: reprobate" & find out how wrong you are. Consider that a friendly challenge.


Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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Kenny'sID

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As already stated, the criteria is people who claim Mt.7:13-14 as a "proof text". Therefore no other passages are pertinent to the point. Except parallel passages, if any, & the like.

Nobody can stop others from posting anything in this thread.
People, yourself included, are continuing to do so even after reading my requests.

As i've said already i have no intentions of answering off topic posts.

Good/safe plan, I mean lets not get into anything else that might refute it.

I think I get it now, even though the point is the scripture you post does not refute eventual salvation, anything else that does is a completely moot point and you don't want to hear it. I got a not exactly underlying feeling you were trying to basically say you stand by "Salvation for all".

You must understand yours is a very unusual action, refusing to talk about your beliefs/other aspects of such, but in a way it makes perfect sense you would not.

Seems to me if you had any faith at at all, or reasonable backing for what you propose as the truth, you would boldly discuss any aspect of it, yet...

As far as others not posting here, your comment "maybe this thread isn't for you", and then the "butt out" by another poster, certainly gave that impression, but good to know that's not a problem and that you will just not be talking to anyone about other refutes.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Why not start your own topic if you want to talk about something else? I'm quite sure i'll be able to refute any objection you have to universalism.

Because you are spreading what you are spreading here, and not on another thread...that's why.
 
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ClementofA

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OP,
My following questions have everything to do with Matthew 7:13-14

1. Are you an ancient Greek scholar? Do you have the skills to translate the original manuscripts into modern English? Or even do anything remotely close?

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I know that just because a word is in present tense that doesn't necessarily mean that it constricts the application to a soon-ending time period.

Matthew 7:21-23 (Analytical Literal Translation, 3rd edition...inspired by YLT):
"Not every one saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father, the [One] in [the] heavens. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord' we prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and did many miraculous works in Your name, did we not?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; be departing from Me, the ones practicing lawlessness!'

He's talking about a FUTURE date and yet uses PRESENT tense verbs!
So we see that just because He does that it does not mean that He's only talking about the generation He is physically speaking to.
So that point you made is moot.

So going back to Matthew 7:13-14, it should be understood as regarding the final judgment. The context supports that view (see also vs. 19).

My point is not "moot". You haven't demonstrated from Mt.7:13-14 any reference to a "final judgement" of that generation let alone all mankind. Or even that such a judgement precludes corrective punishment thereafter till all are saved. Or that Mt.7 references separate destinies in the millennial age kingdom of Christ.

Jesus speaks of "few" finding it. At that time. He does not state how many or few would be finding it in the following 2000 years after that, up to our present time. Or the millennium also, etc. Paul says "many" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19). Why would Paul say that? Do you think he was not aware of what Jesus said re "few"?

Jesus does not say that the "destruction" in view is endless, or final destiny, or non corrective, so why should i accept that this passage necessarily proves universalism false?

If the Lord had wanted to speak of "endless destruction" He had perfectly suitable Greek words to express such an idea, e.g. "no end" (Lk.1:33), "endless" (1 Tim.1:4), "eternal" (Rom.1:20). The fact Scripture - never - uses such expressions re the future destiny of those who die in their sins is evidence against endless annihilation or torments.

It's very dangerous to use lexicons as proof-texts as well. Committees of professionals in ancient Hebrew/Greek translate the Bible for a reason...because it's a weighty task--a layman with a lexicon isn't going to cut it.

Committees of pro HellFire Club folks clone pro endless hell versions after their own preconceived dogma of endless punishment. They distort the truth & decieve the masses. They sell a lot of books. OTOH early church father universalists who were native Greek speakers & Greek scholars knew better.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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It is an understood principle of hermenutics that a passage of
Scripture needs to be viewed in the context in which it was written. Matthew 7:21-23 is in the middle of a set of related instructions that Jesus gave. Therefore, it needs to be viewed alongside the related instructions before and after those verses.

Also, we need to see who Matthew was writing to. He was writing to unconverted Jews and not to Christian believers. We do not find any similar instructions in Paul's letters, which were written to gentile converts, and as far as I can see, none of the other Gospel writers reported it. Luke wrote to a gentile official, John wrote to converted believers struggling with the Gnostic Heresy. and Mark wrote to a gentile audience explaining Jewish traditions.

It is well known that there were Jewish prophets and exorcists who believed that they were serving God and Jesus was showing them that these works would not justify them before God.

So let's look at the whole passage in context:

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

So here, Jesus is saying that there is a narrow gate that leads to life and not everyone will find it. He is warning the Jews that they should not be complacent about their eternal future and the popular path may not be the right one to lead them to eternal life. Notice that He does not specify exactly what that narrow gate is. But John reports that Jesus does specify the narrow gate to Nicodemus when the latter came to Him by night to ask some serious questions. Jesus saw him as a sincere seeker, so He felt to be more specific to him.

True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Here, Jesus is saying that not every person who calls himself a prophet is a true prophet from God. He is talking about Jewish prophets not NT ones. He similarly does not describe exactly the attributes of a true or false prophet. He assumes that his hearers know their Scriptures which clearly outlines the difference between the two.

True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Here is the verse in question. He is talking to Jewish people in the present who are purporting to have God as their Lord. Anyone can give lip service to God, but Jesus says it is the one who does the will of His Father who will [in the future] enter the kingdom of heaven. And what is the will of the Father? To believe on Him whom He has sent (Jesus Christ). Notice that those who are seeking to enter the kingdom of heaven are trying to justify themselves on the deeds they have done for the Lord, but Jesus will recognise only those who are believing on Him whom the Father has sent. Building up the person and the greatness of his deeds is New Age thinking. It is all me, me, me. Jesus will recognise the one who says, "I believe that You died for me on the cross of Calvary:.

The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Building the house that will stand consists on going through the narrow way, believing on Christ whom the Father has sent, and living as a new creation in Christ. But my view is one looking back from this side of the cross and resurrection. Matthew knew that as well, but he deliberately does not editorialise on the basis of his post crucifixion resurrection knowledge. He faithfully reports what Jesus actually said in the Jewish context to make his Jewish audience understand the gospel of Christ from the Jewish perspective and how Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Once the Jews who read his book accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, then Matthew can lead them to a true conversion to Christ as Saviour.

So, to summarise:

1. There is a broad way and a narrow way. Many will take the broad way to destruction and some will take the narrow way to eternal life in Christ.

2. There are true prophets of God and false ones. We will recognise them by the fruit they produce. The good fruit will be those who are pointed to a great faith and trust in Christ, and the bad fruit will be those who are made complacent in their sinfulness and rejection of Christ.

3. Not everyone who gives lip service to God or Christ will be recognised by Christ. He will recognise those who do the Father's will, and that is to believe on Christ whom the Father has sent. For the Jews it is a recognition that Jewish is their God-sent Messiah and Saviour.

4. Jesus summarises that those who build their spiritual houses on the rock which is Christ will stand the storms of life and death and move intact into an eternity in the presence of God. Those who build their spiritual houses on the sand of popular belief, confidence in their own efforts and achievements, prophecies that cause them to relax in their sinful ways, will disintegrate in the transition to eternity and end up in total destruction.

It is quite clear from the context that there are two types of people as described by Jesus. Those who believe on Him and those who don't. Salvation will come to those who believe on Him and destruction will come to those who reject Him. Therefore, it is clear to me that the three passages show clearly that Jesus is not teaching universal salvation.
 
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ClementofA

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Good/safe plan, I mean lets not get into anything else that might refute it.

I think I get it now, even though the point is the scripture you post does not refute eventual salvation, anything else that does is a completely moot point and you don't want to hear it. I got a not exactly underlying feeling you were trying to basically say you stand by "Salvation for all".

You must understand yours is a very unusual action, refusing to talk about your beliefs/other aspects of such, but in a way it makes perfect sense you would not.

Seems to me if you had any faith at at all, or reasonable backing for what you propose as the truth, you would boldly discuss any aspect of it, yet...

As far as others not posting here, your comment "maybe this thread isn't for you", and then the "butt out" by another poster, certainly gave that impression, but good to know that's not a problem and that you will just not be talking to anyone about other refutes.


Actually Universalists have answered every alleged Scriptural objection in other threads.

There are hundreds of such threads on this forum. All open to post any verses one wants. Several active on the first page.

This is the only one - ever - AFAIK where a request was made to focus on one topic, namely is Mt.7:13-14 (in and of itself) a "proof text" against universalism. Therefore generally all other Scripture texts are irrelevant to the topic.

As for other arguments to universalism, i've more than adequately addressed them all. Feel free to post to me in the other threads [see below] & time permitting (God willing) i'll address any reasonable post.

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Early church opposition to endless hell
 
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Actually Universalists have answered every alleged Scriptural objection in other threads.

There are hundreds of such threads on this forum. All open to post any verses one wants. Several active on the first page.

This is the only one - ever - AFAIK where a request was made to focus on one topic, namely is Mt.7:13-14 (in and of itself) a "proof text" against universalism. Therefore generally all other Scripture texts are irrelevant to the topic.

As for other arguments to universalism, i've more than adequately addressed them all. Feel free to post to me in the other threads [see below] & time permitting (God willing) i'll address any reasonable post.

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Early church opposition to endless hell


You should add a hyperlink "If Oprah says it, it must be true" It would be as doctrinally sound as the rest of your arguments.
 
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ClementofA

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It is an understood principle of hermenutics that a passage of
Scripture needs to be viewed in the context in which it was written. Matthew 7:21-23 is in the middle of a set of related instructions that Jesus gave. Therefore, it needs to be viewed alongside the related instructions before and after those verses.

[snip]

So let's look at the whole passage in context:

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

So here, Jesus is saying that there is a narrow gate that leads to life and not everyone will find it. He is warning the Jews that they should not be complacent about their eternal future and the popular path may not be the right one to lead them to eternal life. Notice that He does not specify exactly what that narrow gate is. But John reports that Jesus does specify the narrow gate to Nicodemus when the latter came to Him by night to ask some serious questions. Jesus saw him as a sincere seeker, so He felt to be more specific to him.

I don't see any reference in Mt.7:13-14 to an "eternal future".

Jesus speaks of "few" finding it. At that time. He does not state how many or few would be finding it in the following 2000 years after that, up to our present time. Or the millennium also, etc. Paul says "many" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19). Why would Paul say that? Do you think he was not aware of what Jesus said re "few"?

Jesus does not say that the "destruction" in view is endless, or final destiny, or non corrective, so why should i accept that this passage necessarily proves universalism false?

If the Lord had wanted to speak of "endless destruction" He had perfectly suitable Greek words to express such an idea, e.g. "no end" (Lk.1:33), "endless" (1 Tim.1:4), "eternal" (Rom.1:20). The fact Scripture - never - uses such expressions re the future destiny of those who die in their sins is evidence against endless annihilation or torments.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

I've answered you re Mt.7:21-23 here:

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire
 
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Kenny'sID

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Actually Universalists have answered every alleged Scriptural objection in other threads.

There are hundreds of such threads on this forum. All open to post any verses one wants. Several active on the first page.

This is the only one - ever - AFAIK where a request was made to focus on one topic, namely is Mt.7:13-14 (in and of itself) a "proof text" against universalism. Therefore generally all other Scripture texts are irrelevant to the topic.

As for other arguments to universalism, i've more than adequately addressed them all. Feel free to post to me in the other threads [see below] & time permitting (God willing) i'll address any reasonable post.

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Early church opposition to endless hell

One thread at a time.
 
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Blade

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Facts for me are.. I get no say in this. Your my personally feelings about all some few what ever effects nothing. For God so loved the world. For He came not to judge the world through Him might be saved. And who so ever calls on the name of the lord. The thief .. remember me. That was it. You really think one must be at deaths door for that to work? We only look at a moment in this life not all of it as He sees.

He is not like us. He crys so hard for not one knows how much He loves them. What we can know is .. He will do EVERYTHING it takes to save all. Yet nothing has changed. The fields are still white.. and the laborers are few. We pass people every day every where. If we really thought they were going to be lost..if we thought that was our kid about baby our wife... what would we do? We SAY JESUS IS REAL..we SAY WE BELIEVE...hmm
 
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Buzz_B

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ClementofA, is this off topic:

1 Peter 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

I don't guess you understand that all things which happened in relation to that Ancient Israel were a figure of what would happen world-wide. It does take most some time to understand that.

All you need do is to follow that Greek "polus" on through the NT to see that you are grasping at a wrong impression of that word. Try it and see if what you find supports your theory. Similarly the Greek, "pas." Do the same thing with that word, "all."

The words, "many" and "all", are relative in meaning. They are easy to get a wrong impression of and easy to give a wrong impression of. So it pays not to get too excited before investigating how those words are used in the broader context of the entire NT.
 
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ClementofA

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A word from pagan Greek mythology - USED ONCE - and you are going to hang doctrine on it?

I give little to no credence to any ideas used once.
My stand is that universal salvation would have been
easy to include in any or all the following verses.

Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all

Combined, these verses describe a dark but fiery furnace where
all who do not trust God remain for eternity.
But I concede that the second death seems to end even hell.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

John 3
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mark 9
It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Matthew 13:50
And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death, the lake of fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Psalm 145:20
The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.

Hebrews 10
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Luke 16
The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

Luke 12:5
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

2 Peter 2:17
These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Revelation 20:13-15
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Matthew 12:36
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 20:1-15
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. ...

Acts 2:27
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

Matthew 7:13
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Acts 3:23
And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

Matthew 24:51
And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Mark 9:48-49
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

John 5:29
And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 16:26-27
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 13:49-50
So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Psalm 37:9-11
For the evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait for the Lord shall inherit the land. In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. But the meek shall inherit the land and delight themselves in abundant peace.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Revelation 14:10
He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
 
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SkyWriting

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The narrow gate is The Door, Jesus Christ.

I was taught that as well. I'm just putting the narrow gate passage back into it's correct context. The narrow gate is the golden rule.

Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them--this is the Law and the Prophets. Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.

The narrow gate is the royal law.
Matthew 7 Parallel Chapters
Click to expand...

Even Jesus speaking does not claim that He is the narrow door or gate:

22Then Jesus traveled throughout the towns and villages, teaching as He made His way toward Jerusalem. 23“Lord,” someone asked Him, “will only a few people be saved?”

Jesus answered, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able. 25After the master of the house gets up and shuts the door, you will stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’

But he will reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’

26Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’

28There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30And indeed, some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last.”

Luke 13 BSB
 
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Anguspure

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This thread is only for discussing Mt.7:13-14 as an alleged "proof text" refuting universalism. No other Scripture passages or arguments allegedly opposing universalism will be considered relevant to this topic or answered herein. Not by me, anyway. Please stay on topic or refrain from posting. Thank you.



I'll stick with the inspired Word of God through the apostle Paul, rather than your erroneous opinion of Jesus' words:

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Actually both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!


Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.


"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter
(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Hell is Payback


*********************************************


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Self explanatory really:
So there is a wide gate and a broad way that leads to destruction. Destruction is destruction. How can a thing be saved once it has been destroyed? The salvation of anything must occur prior to destruction.
But (in contrast to the former part of the statement) there is a small gate and narrow way that leads to life, and only a few find it (as opposed to the many that do not find it and who prefer to take the broad way to destruction).
 
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redleghunter

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I was taught that as well. I'm just putting the narrow gate passage back into it's correct context. The narrow gate is the golden rule.



The narrow gate is the royal law.
Matthew 7 Parallel Chapters
Click to expand...

Even Jesus speaking does not claim that He is the narrow door or gate:

22Then Jesus traveled throughout the towns and villages, teaching as He made His way toward Jerusalem. 23“Lord,” someone asked Him, “will only a few people be saved?”

Jesus answered, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able. 25After the master of the house gets up and shuts the door, you will stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’

But he will reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’

26Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’

28There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30And indeed, some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last.”

Luke 13 BSB
The two verses the OP isolated say nothing of the Golden Rule.

We have to keep on topic.
 
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