Judas was saved and then lost his salvation
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In the subheading called the "ministry of Jesus" at the following link we can see a timeline of the events interwoven chronologically. Judas must have committed the sin of greed (and lost his salvation) after the 12 disciples returned from being sent forth for the first time by Jesus and yet before the many disciples forsaked our Lord.
Interwoven Gospels
There was definitely time for Judas to commit the sin of greed within this time frame with no contradiction in Scripture. If you feel there is a statement in Scripture within this time frame that would suggest a contradiction, then pleads free to point it out for us.
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Interwoven Gospels
There was definitely time for Judas to commit the sin of greed within this time frame with no contradiction in Scripture. If you feel there is a statement in Scripture within this time frame that would suggest a contradiction, then pleads free to point it out for us.
...
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One thing I have not noticed in any of the Gospel accounts. That one time ever did Judas actually proclaim any belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah or that He was the Son of God. Just because one associates and even partakes in activities with a group, does not make them a bonafide member of that group. I have never been persuaded that Judas was ever "saved".
This confusion exhibited by some over side issues like this, stems primarily from a lack of understanding who Jesus is, what salvation is, and how it is obtained. And it should also cause some to question themselves if they have obtained it. They had better be sure.....
Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Now, your assignment it to determine what the will of the Father is in that passage. Here is a hint:
John 6:40 (NKJV) And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
And belief is not just mental assent to some claims. It is placing total trust in Jesus for their salvation. That Jesus is in fact God come in the flesh and that his death, burial, and resurrection is the sole means of salvation and placing themselves in total trust of that. Scripture makes it very clear that Satan and demons believe who Jesus is, but they cannot place their trust in Him.
This confusion exhibited by some over side issues like this, stems primarily from a lack of understanding who Jesus is, what salvation is, and how it is obtained. And it should also cause some to question themselves if they have obtained it. They had better be sure.....
Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Now, your assignment it to determine what the will of the Father is in that passage. Here is a hint:
John 6:40 (NKJV) And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
And belief is not just mental assent to some claims. It is placing total trust in Jesus for their salvation. That Jesus is in fact God come in the flesh and that his death, burial, and resurrection is the sole means of salvation and placing themselves in total trust of that. Scripture makes it very clear that Satan and demons believe who Jesus is, but they cannot place their trust in Him.
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We read in scripture,
“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples...”
all 12 were His at that point
In fact, all 12 once belonged to the Father even before they were given to Jesus as we read
"6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;..."(John 17:6 KJV)
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We read in scripture,
“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples...”
all 12 were His at that point
In fact, all 12 once belonged to the Father even before they were given to Jesus as we read
"6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;..."(John 17:6 KJV)
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Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. Paul does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul suggests here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.
If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.
Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here. Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong. Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references. The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews? This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.
Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.
Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection. It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection. There are some serious contradictions in these three sources. We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.
One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple in the first century and had not been used for over 200 years. They had been replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.
If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.
Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here. Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong. Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references. The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews? This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.
Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.
Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection. It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection. There are some serious contradictions in these three sources. We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.
One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple in the first century and had not been used for over 200 years. They had been replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.
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This is no way intended to demean Catholics, it is to make a on topic point. Hitler was part of the Catholic Church and has never been excommunicated to this very day. Being part of a group is not the same as individual salvation. Even Yeshua's physical brothers did not actually place their trust in Him until after the resurrection. But even before that, they were His brothers.
Disciple simply means student. Judas was indeed in the inner group of students, but that doesn't mean he ever accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. Even his remorse at having betrayed Yeshua was not that of seeking forgiveness. It is akin to a crook who is sorry he got caught, but not sorry enough to change himself.
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Ron Gurley
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Judas I. was a "disciple". He was a student who tried to follow the teaching of the Rabbi "tutor" Jesus.
John 18:2...In Gethsemane
Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples.
with His disciples...Greek 3101...mathētēs...
I.a learner, pupil,....one who follows one's teaching
Judas I. was an "apostle". He was a messenger who could spread the "good news" of coming of The Divine Messiah.
Acts 1:25
to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
apostleship...Greek 651...apostolē...commission
III.a thing sent, esp. of gifts
IV.in the NT, the office and dignity of the (11 + 1 replacement) apostles of Christ, apostleship
SEE: Matthew 28: The Great Commission
16 But the eleven disciples (apostles) proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain (Olives) which Jesus had designated.
BUT Judas I.'s spirit was never changed per John 3 as explained in Ephesian 2. He was an UN-BELIEVER. No fruits of the spirit. No spiritual good works. Only EVIL! He was never COMMISSIONED by Jesus to spread the Gospel.
John 18:2...In Gethsemane
Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples.
with His disciples...Greek 3101...mathētēs...
I.a learner, pupil,....one who follows one's teaching
Judas I. was an "apostle". He was a messenger who could spread the "good news" of coming of The Divine Messiah.
Acts 1:25
to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
apostleship...Greek 651...apostolē...commission
III.a thing sent, esp. of gifts
IV.in the NT, the office and dignity of the (11 + 1 replacement) apostles of Christ, apostleship
SEE: Matthew 28: The Great Commission
16 But the eleven disciples (apostles) proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain (Olives) which Jesus had designated.
BUT Judas I.'s spirit was never changed per John 3 as explained in Ephesian 2. He was an UN-BELIEVER. No fruits of the spirit. No spiritual good works. Only EVIL! He was never COMMISSIONED by Jesus to spread the Gospel.
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Ron Gurley
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Judas was sent out and ordained by Jesus as a sheep to the lost sheep
Matthew 10 - 5. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.”
Mark 3 - 14. And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15. And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:”
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Ron Gurley
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Mark 3 (NASB) ...The Original TWELVE are CHOSEN
(NOT commissioned to go forth as evangelistic "apostles"/"messengers"/"disciples" by Jesus AFTER His resurrection")
16 And He appointed the twelve:...
(the LAST was)
19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.
Luke 10:1....[The Seventy Sent Out]
Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others,
and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
He appointed...Greek 4160...poieō...I.to make; II.to do
(NOT commissioned to go forth as evangelistic "apostles"/"messengers"/"disciples" by Jesus AFTER His resurrection")
16 And He appointed the twelve:...
(the LAST was)
19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.
Luke 10:1....[The Seventy Sent Out]
Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others,
and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
He appointed...Greek 4160...poieō...I.to make; II.to do
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So?
Who stated that Jesus did not count Judas as one of the disciples?
John 17:12
“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”
Seems to me that Jesus acknowledged that Judas was lost, but that fulfilled scripture
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no read the same chapter, Jesus speaks of wen the father first gave them all to him all 12 we read
" I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."( John 17:6 KJV)
Judas was one of those that were initially given to Jesus as we read in Matthew 10 . He belonged to the father at one time and fell by transgression and was lost.
"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, [His 12 not His 11 and one devil] he gave them [all 12] power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;...and Judas Iscariot...5 These twelve Jesus sent forth,"( Matthew 10:1,2,5 KJV)
At that time when Jesus called HIS 12 to him, they were already belonging to the father before that and then and they were given to Jesus. They were all saved at this time and ordained and sent forth and all apostles, (sent ones of God) and he gave all 12 power to cast out devils, Can Satan cast out satan?
these are clear things in scripture.
The only problem that arises is when people have been taught the false doctrine of eternal security or once saved always saved. This troubles many because they see the scriptures I show and then they get frustrated and try hard to find a way out of the clarity of text
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Jesus did manifest His name to them.
And as I said earlier, Jesus accounts for Judas in scripture.
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So?
Jesus gave all 12 the power to cast out devils.
I'm not seeing your proof that contridicts the other scripture.
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Notice the part that says”thine they were”
They were the Fathers past tense and he gave them to Jesus
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Jesus said he sent the 12 out as His “sheep” to the “lost sheep”. He sent the 12 and gave them power and sent them amidst wolves. If they are found sheep sent to the lost sheep then all 12 were saved at that time.
Jesus also said that his sheep here his voice and he knows them and he gives unto them eternal life. That life is in Him as they abide in him only read John 15.
So for Jesus to call all 12 his sheep apostles and to send them and ordain them all means ,according to Jesus that all 12 were saved then and so when we read that Jesus called unto him “his” 12 disciples, (apostles, sheep, of his own household) then they were not lost then.
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Exactly, Matthias was after being chosen by lot, numbered among the 12.
And all the church would have then associated Matthias with the 12, as would Paul writing later.
v21 qualifies that the man must have been one of the long term disciples, Jesus had more than 12 disciples. To be numbered with the eleven means Matthias now makes up the 12.
Acts 1
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
John 13 gives us good clue in on whom Christ had chosen when He says,
18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ Christ already knew Matthias would be chosen to replace Judas when He picked out the original 12.
Christ did not speak concerning Judas about having a part in Him, Judas was excluded from having a part in Christ as Judas was of an UNCLEAN spirit being a devil. And no unclean person has any inheritance with Christ, they are cut off. To be acceptable to God we must be born of God, made clean within. Judas was unclean so had never been born of God. Judas had no salvation to lose since Judas was never saved.
Leviticus 7:21
Moreover the person who touches any unclean thing, such as human uncleanness, an unclean animal, or any abominable unclean thing, and who eats the flesh of the sacrifice of the peace offering that belongs to the Lord, that person shall be cut off from his people.’”
John 13
7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”
10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”
12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, yourLord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
Jesus Identifies His Betrayer
18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ 19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. 20 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” 22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
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Again, Jesus' words allocated for Judas and that he was lost, but that is so scripture would be fulfilled.
John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and guarded them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
So I still don't understand why you do not believe Jesus own words as He speaks to the Father.
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Sorry to say but you are 100 percent wrong here.
To "betray" Jesus means he once had the trust of Jesus and then went against that trust. At the beginning Judas was one of 'His" disciples, apostles, sent ones, ordained and given power to cast out devils and sent as a sheep to he lost sheep.
You cannot simply ignore this and point to a later time many years later when Judas "betrayed Jesus". All can agree that Judas later on sinned and went against the trust he had. We read that Judas fell by transgression (Acts 1:25 KJV) and that he was blotted out of the book of life (Acts 1:20 KJV) with Psalms 69:25-28 KJV)
We also read about Judas
11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,
“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9
Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,
“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8
This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.
Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them."
I suggest you read my first post again and try to answer each point.
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