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Again you missed the point. The discussion was over the word "caught up." No one was making a case for Darby's theology.
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Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!
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The Rapture per Dispensationalism is something derived from the Scriptures, without explicitly being there. However, we have to be careful in the nuance we give to sola scriptura. It does not necessarily mean the Bible minus theology and human traditions. It means the Bible norms all theology and human traditions.
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The Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a temporary place of purification for those who die in the state of grace and friendship with God (Rom 11:22) This purification in involves suffering ( Paul uses the analogy of fire )
Being absent from the lord and present with the lord (2 Cor 5:6 and Phil 1:20-24) does not explain anything nor does it disprove purgatory .. Rev 21:27 It actually says in Cor " so we are always of good courage while we at home ,we now that while we are at home in the body we are away from the lord , for we walk by faith , not by sight .we are of good courage and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the lord. So weather we are at home or away,we make are aim to please him". Paul does not say that a christian who dies ( absent from the body) goes straight to heaven. This is the same for Phil " For me is to be life in the flesh that means fruitful labour for me .yet which shall I chose I can not tell. I'm hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ for that is fare better.but to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account"
The Bible says " but nothing unclean will enter" . Matthew 12:32 sujests some sin are remitted in the " age to Come " , but it also shows lose their justification before God .In Mathew 18 ;21-35 we see evidence of purgatory and that a Christian can forfeit his justification.by serious sin" so also my heavenly Father will do to you if you do not forgive your brother.
we have no disagreement Christ unique sacrifice has been fully accomplished and was infinitely efficient to satisfy Gods justice and atone for their sins of humanity. The bible tells us of another place that is neither heaven or hell which is known as (sheol,hades,Netherworld and paradise)
In luke 16-19 we see Lazarus in a place of rest ( Abraham's bosom ) The rich man finds himself torment. Clearly neither of these places was heaven ( the 2 men were in two separate sections within Hades(sheol=underworld) since Christ had not died yet on the cross and heaven was closed to all the righteous ,who waited patiently for that day (hebrews 11:39-0;Peter 3:18-20) Notice that the rich man was interceding on behalf of his brothers who were still alive.
Old testament Jews till this very day, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and Catholics pray for their dead . As in 2 Maccabees 12. Orthodox call purgatory toll houses .
We have to make a distinction between the internal penalty due to sin ,which is eternal separation from God (hell) and temporal effects which are temporal punishments .
Temporal effects are best illustrated in Genesis 3:14-20 were God pronounces a series of punishments .Adam and Eve avoidance of their sin -Hell-was something Christ atone for and their salvation and avoidance of that eternal penalty was due to faith in Gods promises. But their temporal effects remained such as; labour pain,sickness death... which we all suffer . King david sinned and he repented but a form of restitution was still owed . the death of sone .
This fits in with purgatory were people die in the state of grace where gods love purifies us from any temporal effects of sin.
I Corinthians 3:10-15 is an excellent presentation of purgatory.
First the person died in the friendship of Jesus. the 'day" his deeds are disclosed and is now giving account of his life . some things are noble and compared to gold and the ignoble things are burnt away,until the noble things are left and the Bible makes it clear " nothing unclean shall enter it". Paul says this process of passing through fire to describe the pain of this purification. Jesus said " everyone includes you, will " be salted with fire". in hebrews 12:22-23 that as one approaches Gods he encounters angles and the " spirits of just men made perfect "
St Augustine said in 397 " that there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful be saved some more slowly some more quickly in greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things in life that perish through certain purgatorial fire."
Finally the Catholic Church which is the early church which held the presidency and authority over the whole Church . Even the Orthodox hold that the pope of rome is " first amongst equals " ( since the split in 1024 they will now deny the evidence that the Roman Church holds primacy over them and there fore is the true Church, and to justify there split they consider that they are the true church ). The earliest bishops in the first, second and third centuries and onward recognize Rome held the primacy over all other Churches . Just read these early Church Fathers . Rome has the authority , lead by the holy Spirit to determine which books are to be in the Bible . The final canon of the Bible was determined in 397 ad by our Church. The Roman Church has the same authority to interpret the scriptures where you do not . Nor does any other church who left us have that authority . They cant even agree amongst each other on the basics and contradict each other . the Holy Spirit and truth cannot contradict itself .
In addition not only did the early reformers not believe in the rapture ,which was invented by John Darby in the 1830s , they held to the fact they believed that there would be a deception , the antichrist would come and be destroyed and the last judgement would occur when we will be taken up ( the one and only rapture that would occur ) to meet the lord ( last judgement ). The Protestant reformers and the Catholic Church agreed until Darby came along . Today's evangelicals hold different theories on the rapture and the lasts days .
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I am also saying the Bible is not self interpitating and Martin Luther should have gotten it right the first time around . Each church or individual interpreter of scripture should not contradict each other , but they do . And that is not how truth works .
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I believe I just gave you an exegesis of purgatory you have judged it as a eisegesis . I have also shown we have a historical precedence for our belief in the OT,NT and the Early Church Fathers as well as with the Orthodox .We held some things in common which Protestants disagree with . The OT Jews and the Catholic church were the only game in town until the reformation . I trust the early Church writers in their interpretation of the WORD then Protestants who really do contradict each others interpretation of the WORD. Yes there was debate in the early Church but if you read the early Church Fathers there was a overall consensus on many issues which is considered the magisterium of the Catholic Church .
Read the early Church Fathers and see if they held the same interpretation and consenses of the WORD similar to a Lutheran, Presbyterian, Oneness Pentecostal.................... or Catholic . You can read and see what they believed about the Eucharist, apostolic Succession, Prayers for the dead, Baptism......ect .
Tell you what give me an exegesis of John 6 .
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We can actually learn from each other . as for me i enjoy the challenge and love everyone of you . I just doing this to show us Catholics have a defense . As far as John 3:16 you are correct . I recognize you as a Christian saved by christ . That is what my church also says/teaches about you. Sorry I put my 2 cents wort in .
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I agree . Apologetics is aso tuff . i believe everyone here is Christian but we all must sand up for our beliefs . Especially today when all Christians are hated and we need to defend our beliefs . keep doing what your doing it may make a difference in someones life . It all comes down to Christ .
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Why not start over and just do ONE subject at a time. Most people will not read such a long post to begin with.
KISS! Keep It Simple S_ _ _ _ _!
I did not want to spell it out and get reported.
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He does say present with the Lord.
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.(2 Corinthians 5:6-7)
I will defer to this apostolic teaching. I bolded "we" so there is no confusion only what is deemed later in church history as distinct saints is not exclusive here.
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Romans 11:22)
There is a bit of tension in the context. Paul is discussing the gospel and comparing the Jews with Gentiles. Second point would be the bolded. This does not support purgatory given even you admitted it is temporary and souls who go there are not cut off from the Grace of God.
The age to come where we have our incorruptible resurrected bodies. The intermediary state of our souls is the subject.
Second point the context is the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit. This would be a mortal sin according to the Catholic church. How one can apply this verse to the venal type sins the Catholic church says are purified in purgatory is wresting the text.
Nowhere in the NT do we see someone can lose the justification which God grants by Grace.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.(Romans 5:9)
Plus I thought purgatory was just a purifying place to wash off venal sins. If we lose our justification or apostasize don't we head to the other place? Such would be a mortal sin.
Yes we see two places in Luke 16. There is a gulf where one cannot travel to the other place.
The rich man is in torment. I thought purgatory was not a place of torment.
The rich man's intercession was rebuked and shutdown.
Luke 16:
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Sounds like the brothers were on their own to seek the revelation of God.
I will also point out Catholic purgatory has those still here on earth praying for those in purgatory. Not those in purgatory praying for the living. You have a man in torment trying to intercede when it should be the other way.
For Jews such is not to be found in TaNaKh. Such traditions were seen in some communities in intertestament times (diaspora Jews in Egypt for example), but not one prayer for the dead in the Torah or Prophets nor in the psalms.
I will add the use of Maccabees does not help out the Catholic argument for purgatory. The men who they prayed for and made offerings died in mortal sin (idolatry). Which according to Catholic purgatory only venal sins are purged.
The reason I brought in the Eastern church was due to their differing view. I linked you to The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory for a reason. The Scriptures you cite in support of purgatory were refuted by the Eastern bishops at Pseudo-Synod of Ferrara-Florence (1438-1445) . Here's an excerpt:
In the following sitting the Latins presented a defence of their doctrine on purgatory. As much as can be concluded from the answer given by the Greeks to it, they tried to prove their doctrine by the words of 2 Mac. xii. 42, 46, where it is said that Judas Maccabaeus "sent to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering," remarking at the same time "that it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin." They also quoted the words of Jesus Christ, "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (S. Matt. xii. 32.) But their especial defence was founded on the words of the Apostle S. Paul (I Cor. iii. 11, 15): "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." Different extracts were also made by the Latins from the works of the Eastern Fathers—Basil the Great, Epiphanius of Cyprus, John Damascene, Dionysius the Areopagite, Theodoret, Gregory of Nyssa; and the Western—Augustine, Ambrose, and Gregory the Great. They did not also forget to quote the authority of the Church of Rome in defence of their doctrine, and to make use of their usual sophistries.
To all this the Orthodox party gave a clear and satisfactory answer. [5] They remarked, that the words quoted from the book of Maccabees, and our Saviour's words, can only prove that some sins will be forgiven after death; but whether by means of punishment by fire, or by other means, nothing was known for certain. Besides, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of these two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once.
[...]
Continuing the Eastern contingent makes it clear such a place as purgatory is not an infallible teaching:
In answer to the words quoted by the Latins from Basil the Great (in his prayer for Pentecost), Epiphanius, John Damascene, and Dionysius the Areopagite, the defenders of the orthodox doctrine remarked, that these quotations did not prove anything to the advantage of the Church of Rome. They could not even find the testimony of Theodoret adduced by the Latins. "Only one Father remains," they continued, "Gregory the blessed priest of Nyssa, who, apparently, speaks more to your advantage than any of the other Fathers. Preserving all the respect due to this Father, we cannot refrain from noticing, that he was but a mortal man, and man, however great a degree of holiness he may attain, is very apt to err, especially on such subjects, which have not been examined before or determined upon in a general Council by the Fathers." The orthodox teachers, when speaking of Gregory, more than once restrict their words by the expression: "if such was his idea," and conclude their discussion upon Gregory with the following words: "we must view the general doctrine of the Church, and take the Holy Scripture as a rule for ourselves, nor paying attention to what each has written in his private capacity (idia)."
The Eastern teachers said, concerning the testimonies of the Western Fathers, that they were rather ignorant of them, not having any translation in Greek, and tried to excuse them by the circumstances under which they wrote, their misunderstanding the Apostle's words (I Cor. iii. 11, 15), the difficulty of drawing a general conclusion from many circumstances (founded on visions), &c.
As regards the weight of the opinion of the Church of Rome pointed to by the Latins, it was found by the Greeks to be inconsistent with the subject then in hand.
Lastly, to the Latin sophistries, they opposed the more valid conclusions from the principles of the doctrine of Christ, from many works of the Fathers, from the parable of Lazarus, where mention is made of Abraham's bosom,—the place of bliss,—and of hell the place of punishment; and nothing is said of any intermediate place for temporal punishments.
The Greek answer was evidently intended to show the Latins the unsoundness of their newly-invented doctrine on the one side, and the steadfastness of the orthodox party in the faith handed down to them by the Apostles and the holy Fathers, on the other. In the course of the disputes the principal question branched off into so many light and abstract questions, that as a matter of course the solution of the chief one became still more difficult. The Latins for instance asked where and how the angels fly? what was the substance of hell fire? The last question met with the following answer from Jagaris, the imperial officer: "the querist will get a satisfactory solution to his question, when he experiences the nature of that fire himself." [6]
I think we can conclude the Latin concept of purgatory was clearly a doctrinal development as the Eastern church deferred to Christ in Luke 16 and apostolic teachings.
This synod was in the 15th century.
Temporal is just that, temporal as in this world.
All such were meted out in their lifetimes. Including all in this fallen flesh die. I don't think either one of us can deny no matter our spiritual standing with God, we hu-mans suffer the consequences of our actions. Which God justly chastises us as any good father would his own child. (Hebrews 12:6)
What we don't have in Sacred Scriptures is this chastisement occurring in any intermediary state.
I have to disagree for two reasons:
1. Sins are not the subject but rewards.
2. "for the Day will declare it," which refers to the day of the Lord. Which by your own catechism is Judgment Day and the Resurrection of the dead.
Here's the context:
1 Corinthians 3:
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
It would be a good reference for purgatory if sin, transgressions or impurities were mentioned. They are not.
Other than what was already quoted where we are either in the bosom of Abraham (Luke 16) and or absent from this body present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 1) with regards to an intermediary state, we do have other promises:
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:20)
John 14:
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
And the beautiful inspired words of St Peter:
1 Peter 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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We can only find Truth in God's revelation to us.
The reason there is division and discrepancies is due to departing from the Truth revealed by God. As humans we tend to add or subtract from God's revelation to mankind.
There's an easy way to determine if such machinations are of God. Compare them to how He revealed Himself in Holy Scriptures.
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I do see the presentation as eisegesis. As I do consider most of the garden variety of eschatology out there as such too.
Here's why. My friends who tell me they can prove a pre tribulation rapture, start with that concept. They are going to take me all over the Bible to show me where they can find allusions, portions of verses and yes out of context text to prove their point. All they have done is stuff a bag full of text to "prove" their concept. That is the very definition of eisegesis.
Instead of a clear teaching on the Resurrection or tribulation which can be found in the NT supported by the OT. I pay careful of the eschatology which uses the words of Christ and His apostles (and OT prophets) within the context of their teaching or sermon or epistle. This way I can draw from the source within context.
The arguments for purgatory follow the same logic as the left behind theology. It starts with a concept not taught clearly by either Christ nor His apostles.
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