If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
You cannot understand the Bible with humanistic sentements. Just because you think eternal punishment for the wicked is wrong, cannot equate to God's Righteous Judgement. He Justly destroyed entire families including babies, as He saw fit. And He is still Just in what He has done. It is not whether you or I agree but what the Lord decides

My argument are not human sentiments, They are based on God's Word and not only that the Spirit of the Word which we will debate if you can handle a good debate. Yes death has happened many times in the OT with God. BUT.... Do you really think death is a big deal with God who is eternal and death is just part of His plan? How can you even compare mortal death with Jesus torturing billions of billions of lost souls forever and ever with NO MERCY that God never called. Death is the grave, the pit the end of of natural life which is pretty darn short compared God sees time. Eternal punishment has no end and no mercy. That is sick and a loving God has no need for suck a thing totally against his nature.

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 29, 2017

Soar Like and Eagle said:
My argument are not human sentiments, They are based on God's Word and not only that the Spirit of the Word which we will debate if you can handle a good debate. Yes death has happened many times in the OT with God. BUT.... Do you really think death is a big deal with God who is eternal and death is just part of His plan? How can you even compare mortal death with Jesus torturing billions of billions of lost souls forever and ever with NO MERCY that God never called. Death is the grave, the pit the end of of natural life which is pretty darn short compared God sees time. Eternal punishment has no end and no mercy. That is sick and a loving God has no need for suck a thing totally against his nature.

What of Matthew 25:46?

Lazarus Short · Dec 29, 2017

Soar Like and Eagle said:
...Israel; the northern ten tribes were later scattered and lost absorbed into many nations. Point being no one really knows where they are or who they are.

So your nation of Israel today is not Israel just two tribes Judah (Benjamin and Judah)...

This is off-topic, but if you do not really know where and who lost Israel is today?

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
What of Matthew 25:46?

I love Matthew 25. lets look at God level not human religious level. Jesus was a Jew and knew the law of Moses and in the law of Moses both sheep and goats are clean animals. So how can a goat be the loss?

If there was a separation of Sheep and pigs than I could agree what has been mis-taught BUT But that was not Jesus words. Jesus does not make mistakes especially with spiritual symbolism that is one way of hiding his great mysteries right before carnal eyes.

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

Lazarus Short said:
This is off-topic, but if you do not really know where and who lost Israel is today?

Not at all. Did you read the whole post especially toward the end

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 29, 2017

Soar Like and Eagle said:
I love Matthew 25. lets look at God level not human religious level. Jesus was a Jew and knew the law of Moses and in the law of Moses both sheep and goats are clean animals. So how can a goat be the loss?

If there was a separation of Sheep and pigs than I could agree what has been mis-taught BUT But that was not Jesus words. Jesus does not make mistakes especially with spiritual symbolism that is one way of hiding his great mysteries right before carnal eyes.

You have not dealt with verse 46

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
You have not dealt with verse 46

Does it matter? Why would up a goat eternally? A goat and a man are not eternal being they have a beginning. Only God is an eternal being. This is obviously a bad translation. You did not address the goat being a clean animal?

The Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement).

Of the doctrine of the Pharisees he (Josephus)says:
"They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria). Elsewhere he says that the Essenes, "allot to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing torment (timoria adialeipton), where they suffer a deathless torment" (athanaton timorion). Aidion and athanaton are his favorite terms for duration, and timoria (torment) for punishment.

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 29, 2017

Soar Like and Eagle said:
Does it matter? Why would up a goat eternally? A goat and a man are not eternal being they have a beginning. Only God is an eternal being. This is obviously a bad translation. You did not address the goat being a clean animal?

The Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement).

Of the doctrine of the Pharisees he (Josephus)says:
"They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria). Elsewhere he says that the Essenes, "allot to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing torment (timoria adialeipton), where they suffer a deathless torment" (athanaton timorion). Aidion and athanaton are his favorite terms for duration, and timoria (torment) for punishment.

The Righteous will have eternal life and the unrighteous eternal punishment. Both "eternals" are the same in duration

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
The Righteous will have eternal life and the unrighteous eternal punishment. Both "eternals" are the same in duration

You did not address the baby goat?

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
The Righteous will have eternal life and the unrighteous eternal punishment. Both "eternals" are the same in duration

The word in the Greek is ages not eternity. God is eternal men and goats are not. God deals with men in ages not eternity. We had a beginning so we are not eternal beings.

AlexDTX · Dec 29, 2017

Soar Like and Eagle said:
Most believers are blinded by the religious system and only see God's wrath and limited ability to save. Its as if the blood of Jesus is powerless over the mighty freewill of the Adamic race. Strange there is no freewill in being dragged? Carnal man has a freewill to do a lot of things but sure does not have a freewill to save him self because he is carnal and salvation is spiritual experience. How can that is dead in trustpasses and sin and dead to the realm of God freely choose something totally contrary to its nature? God is not calling the whole world now. He has many ages to do this

I differ in definition of terms. I do not see the word "draw" which you say means "drag" as a volition of our free wills. This is a classic Calvinst versus Arminius argument. Of course the will of God is greater than man's, but it is God who has created the boundaries of our wills that He will not cross. It is contrary to the very nature of God, who is love, to violate another person's will. That would be a type of rape, and God does not rape His creation. What draws a man to God by the Father is the man's own realization and desire for the goodness of God. It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. This is what the work of the Holy Spirit is: to open our eyes and ears of understanding so we see for our selves.

Again, you are using a Calvinism in your point of view, that man is incapable of desiring salvation without God choosing to put that desire in him. Yes God puts that desire in him, but it is at birth. Ecclesiastes tells us that the knowledge of eternity is in every heart. Sin hardens the heart so that desire needs to be awakened. The first awakening of that desire is for the Gospel to be preached. God tries the reigns of our hearts to see who has an awakened desire for him.

You also assume the doctrine of total depravity, which I do not agree with. I agree we can not save ourselves. I agree that all have sinned and are born with sin natures, but that doesn't mean the same thing as total depravity. Life is impacted by many factors. The Bible frequently uses gardening as a metaphor for human life. The same seed will grow differently in different environments. Soil, water, sunlight, insects, blight and disease all impact plant growth. Likewise with people. Many factors dull our desire of the Lord and many factors can increase the desire of the Lord. God works with these factors.

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 29, 2017

Soar Like and Eagle said:
The word in the Greek is ages not eternity. God is eternal men and goats are not. God deals with men in ages not eternity. We had a beginning so we are not eternal beings.

So you are saying that the Righteous will not be with the Lord for ever in heaven?

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

AlexDTX said:
I differ in definition of terms. I do not see the word "draw" which you say means "drag" as a volition of our free wills. This is a classic Calvinst versus Arminius argument. Of course the will of God is greater than man's, but it is God who has created the boundaries of our wills that He will not cross. It is contrary to the very nature of God, who is love, to violate another person's will. That would be a type of rape, and God does not rape His creation. What draws a man to God by the Father is the man's own realization and desire for the goodness of God. It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. This is what the work of the Holy Spirit is: to open our eyes and ears of understanding so we see for our selves.

Again, you are using a Calvinism in your point of view, that man is incapable of desiring salvation without God choosing to put that desire in him. Yes God puts that desire in him, but it is at birth. Ecclesiastes tells us that the knowledge of eternity is in every heart. Sin hardens the heart so that desire needs to be awakened. The first awakening of that desire is for the Gospel to be preached. God tries the reigns of our hearts to see who has an awakened desire for him.

You also assume the doctrine of total depravity, which I do not agree with. I agree we can not save ourselves. I agree that all have sinned and are born with sin natures, but that doesn't mean the same thing as total depravity. Life is impacted by many factors. The Bible frequently uses gardening as a metaphor for human life. The same seed will grow differently in different environments. Soil, water, sunlight, insects, blight and disease all impact plant growth. Likewise with people. Many factors dull our desire of the Lord and many factors can increase the desire of the Lord. God works with these factors.

Carnal man is dead. Dead spiritually and as a carnal man sees all things spiritual as foolishness and salvation is very spiritual. That is why the word draw is used. Carnal man has no spiritual desire for when Adam died we all died to the realm of God. That is why this verse is so important. I am a Christian Universalist not a Calvinist. Calvin believed in many things I do not like eternal punishment.

Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. God’s Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state. Being dead spiritually is so easy to understand. Have you ever see some one dead? Well a spiritual man is dead to hearing seeing, receiving God and all the man made doctrine of freewill or choice cannot and will not waken carnal man out of that dead spiritual state.

"QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Got is not calling the whole world now.

Oldmantook · Dec 29, 2017

George MacDonald Saved My Life - George MacDonald Quotes - User Rated Quotes

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
So you are saying that the Righteous will not be with the Lord for ever in heaven?

Never said that. One age leads to another age, to another age, to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age, etc.

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 29, 2017

Soar Like and Eagle said:
Never said that. One age leads to another age, to another age, to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age, etc.

Without end?

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
Without end?

All ages end but is replaced with a new age. another age with out end. But punishment of the loss ends when God decides it ends. God has many ages to save the loss.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

Soar Like and Eagle · Dec 29, 2017

God is not calling all people now.

1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 29, 2017

Soar Like and Eagle said:
All ages end but is replaced with a new age. another age with out end. But punishment of the loss ends when God decides it ends. God has many ages to save the loss.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

Wishful theology!

gordonhooker · Dec 29, 2017

AlexDTX said:
If I understand your question, Gordon, I agree with you. Calvinists try to convince people to believe their point of view, as do others. I gloss over such posts, too. We all have the right to state what we think, including Universal Salvationists, but the work of convincing is by the Holy Spirit. Endless points and arguments do nothing unless the Spirit quickens those points in the heart. We are all called to speak the truth in love and to give an account for our faith when asked. But that does not mean we are to try forcing our point of view on others.

Top post, it is a pity we can’t use multiple ratings because your response was friendly and I agree with you.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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