Is there a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24?
- Thread starter DavidPT
- Start date
- Sep 2, 2010
- 5,205
- 1,046
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
I may be splitting hairs here but actually I believe the promise they did not receive was eternal life, because they wouldn't receive that until the resurrection, just like the rest of us. In other words, he's making the point that they are dead and not yet resurrected (not yet immortal).
Upvote
0
- Sep 2, 2010
- 5,205
- 1,046
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
I think you still don't understand the meaning of Hades. It's not a literal unseen place, rather it's the state of death. The reason Hades is used to describe the state of death is because nobody knows what it's like to be dead. It's a mystery. It's unseen.
Upvote
0
- Sep 2, 2010
- 5,205
- 1,046
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
The only interpretation that matters is the one that was meant by the author.
Upvote
0
claninja
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 11:13-16
and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the EARTH. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15IF they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—A HEAVENLY ONE. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
The scripture says exactly the opposite of what you are saying. The author states it was NOT THE COUNTRY THAT THEY CAME OUT OF that they were mindful, 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—A HEAVENLY ONE.
Are not all believers of God strangers and exiles on this earth. Do all believers not long to be at home with Father in heaven???
All of us are longing for a better country-The heavenly one. Abel longed for this, enoch longed for this, noah, longed for this, Abraham longed for this., ALL of the OT saints longed for this. We now, long for this.
And it is only because of Christ that we get to inherit this. Christ is the "seed" to whom the inheritance belongs:
Galatians 3:16
16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”i meaning one person, who is Christ.
It is because we (us and the OT saints) belong to Christ that we inherit anything.
Galatians 3:29
you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
and apart from the body of Christ, no one (Church and OT saints) would inherit anything:
Hebrews 11:39
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us (Church) would they (OT SAINTS) be made perfect.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Sep 26, 2016
- 8,602
- 2,107
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Here's an example of a passage where I initially began thinking along some different lines awhile back.
These disciples Jesus was speaking to at the time are clearly long dead and gone now. In verse 3----And if I go and prepare a place for you---I take that to be meaning what He does during His ascension after the first coming but before the 2nd coming. In that same verse---I will come again---I take that to be meaning the 2nd coming. If this is correct thusfar, how does verse 3 make logical sense, if when these particular disciples died, they then went to heaven where Jesus is currently residing?
The text says----I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Meaning at the time when He comes again. Why would He need to do that if they are already currently residing with Him in heaven? Wouldn't verse 3 already be true if that were the case----that where I am, there ye may be also? But doesn't the text instead indicate that this won't be the case until He first comes again?
This actually kills two birds with one stone, so to speak, when you really think about it. Not only would this prove souls don't go to heaven upon death, thus not awaiting the 2nd coming there, it also proves a position such as Amil, where the majority of them are banking that those who die in Christ, that once they die, they literally continue this thousand year reigning with Christ as now taking place in heaven as bodiless souls, that this is not correct either.
Upvote
0
- Sep 26, 2016
- 8,602
- 2,107
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Pretty nice work overall (I might use this here and there if you don't mind, full credit of course) we know of BABerean2 is against you it has to be correct Eschatology.... Now on the flop side, something y probably didn't intend, or might not have intended. But do you see the Rapture thus here?
(NIV) 1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28
My question is this, does this show the Rapture in your eyes, via the THEN when he comes?
I see it could possibly be Christ the First-fruits was raised from the Dead.....THEN when he comes those that belong unto him......THEN after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
In other words is this a three pronged event?
Christ raised from the Dead...............THEN the Rapture............THEN those that he gathers at his Second Coming?
I am just staring to look at it, so its just an inquiry so to speak, I never come to a conclusion until I have studied something in depth and prayed about it, so its just an observation.
Good work over all, very insightful.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
My current thinking on this is this, though I could be wrong of course.
Verse 20 states this---But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Verse 23 states this---Christ the firstfruits
Isn't that exactly what verse 20 indicates? So based on verse 20, could not verse 23 be meaning the following? But every man in his own order: Christ's resurrection 2000 years ago; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
We have to keep in mind this, the context according to verse 21 is the resurrection of the dead.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
claninja
Well-Known Member
These are very good points. and this would definitely agree with versus such as
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1 Thessalonioans 4:17
Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Upvote
0
Buzz_B
Well-Known Member
- Oct 15, 2017
- 894
- 161
- 70
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Divorced
I understand it is never easy to let go of the old that we might receive the new, but,
Proverbs 10:25 "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation."
Contrasted to the righteous having an everlasting foundation that verse (as many others) can only mean that the wicked are complete and forever gone.
Believe Jesus:
John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Those who are judged already have no need of appearing to another judgment. And they will not.
Upvote
0
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
.
Upvote
0
Buzz_B
Well-Known Member
- Oct 15, 2017
- 894
- 161
- 70
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Divorced
You evidently missed my posts explaining that. Maybe i did not do so in this thread. It may have been in another. The wicked are not considered dead. They are considered perished. The dead are in graves. (John 5:28) The word, "graves", at John 5:28 is a translation of the Greek word, G3419 - "mnemeion", which simply means, "remembrance", as in a place of remembrance.
Remember now what David prayed when he felt unworthy and as if God had justly abandoned him: Psalms 88:4-5 "I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Now the word, "grave", there is from the Hebrew word, "qeber", which does not mean a place of remembrance as does the Greek word for "grave." So I sympathize with why it is confusing to so many. It would be nice if we could home in on a way to standardize the words used so that those with different meanings were readily distinguished. Some Bibles recognizing this fact translate, "mnemeion", as "memorial tomb."
Upvote
0
Revealing Times
Well-Known Member
Yes, I see that, but I see three events. Christ became the First-fruits, those of us who will become his at his coming, then there is an end time mention. I think we can look past he original subtext, All are made alive in Christ just as all died in Adam. Then it mentions what I see as three subsets, Christ the First-fruits, THEN those who are Christs at his coming (1 Cor. 15 of course) when he calls us unto him in the air. THEN, those he redeems as he conquers and overtakes Satan/Anti-Christ.
Since the subject/subtext is still those who have been given life through Christ Jesus, I see that there are three time periods via the First-fruits.
Anyway, I haven;t delved into it it just turned on a light-switch n my head and sometimes that stats on for months before I come to a determination.
God bless.......
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Buzz_B
Well-Known Member
- Oct 15, 2017
- 894
- 161
- 70
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Divorced
23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
The phrase I emboldened there can be easily mistaken to mean, "Christ and the firstfruits in him", but it doesn't mean that. It means that Christ is the firstfruits. 1 Corinthians 15:20
The rest of the elect are a "kind of firstfruits." James 1:18
So what we see said there at 1 Corinthians 15:23 is, ""But every man in his own order: Christ, he being the firstfruits; afterward they (who are a kind of firstfruits) that are Christ's at his coming."
We see (1) Christ was resurrected himself being the primary firstfruits, and (2) at his coming those also called as firstfruits in him.
Only two groups.
Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ...."
These dead are the ones who must go through the judgment to decide what their end will be. That judgment lasts for one thousand years and then the verdict is made.
Those "kind of firstfruits" (James 1:18) need no further judgment:
1 Corinthians 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."
John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God."
The "rest of the dead" at Revelation 20:5 are not the same as those in the second half of John 3:18
They are that great multitude which comes out of the great tribulation having expressed faith in Christ so as to have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, but because they have not fully made the change from their spiritually dead state to the full life that is in Christ, they yet need shepherding to "living fountains of waters" from which to drink. Revelation 7:17
God's wiping away their tears there is a process which last through that thousand years of judgment day.
Upvote
0
seventysevens
Well-Known Member
Yes I do - quite well in fact the important matter is once you are dead you are either in a very dark bad place or you are in a very brightly lit good place and when you get there you don't get to change places if you don't like it. That is why it is so important to learn the difference between living for and serving self or dying to self and living for and serving God before you die as afterward there is no changing it
Upvote
0
It is my understanding that the New Testament was written in Greek, instead of Hebrew.
If the original autographs were written in Greek, then confusion would be produced by not using the Greek as our guide to the meaning of the text.
Revelation 11:18
(CJB) "The Goyim raged. But now your rage has come, the time for the dead to be judged, the time for rewarding your servants the prophets and your holy people, those who stand in awe of your name, both small and great. It is also the time for destroying those who destroy the earth."
(ESV) The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."
(Geneva) And the Gentiles were angrie, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they shoulde be iudged, and that thou shouldest giue reward vnto thy seruants the Prophets, and to the Saintes, and to them that feare thy Name, to small and great, and shouldest destroy them, which destroy the earth.
(GW) The nations were angry, but your anger has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged: to reward your servants, the prophets, your holy people, and those who fear your name, no matter if they are important or unimportant, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
(LITV-TSP) And the nations were full of wrath; and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your slaves, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.
(KJV) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV+) AndG2532 theG3588 nationsG1484 were angry,G3710 andG2532 thyG4675 wrathG3709 is come,G2064 andG2532 theG3588 timeG2540 of theG3588 dead,G3498 that they should be judged,G2919 andG2532 that thou shouldest giveG1325 rewardG3408 unto thyG4675 servantsG1401 theG3588 prophets,G4396 andG2532 to theG3588 saints,G40 andG2532 them that fearG5399 thyG4675 name,G3686 smallG3398 andG2532 great;G3173 andG2532 shouldest destroyG1311 them which destroyG1311 theG3588 earth.G1093
(NKJV) The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(YLT) and the nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'
..............................................................
John 5:28
(CJB) Don't be surprised at this; because the time is coming when all who are in the grave will hear his voice
(ESV) Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
(Geneva) Marueile not at this: for the houre shall come, in the which all that are in the graues, shall heare his voyce.
(GW) Don't be surprised at what I've just said. A time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice,
(LITV-TSP) Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
(KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(KJV+) MarvelG2296 notG3361 at this:G5124 forG3754 the hourG5610 is coming,G2064 inG1722 the whichG3739 allG3956 thatG3588 are inG1722 theG3588 gravesG3419 shall hearG191 hisG846 voice,G5456
(NKJV) Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
(YLT) 'Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
.
Upvote
0
Buzz_B
Well-Known Member
- Oct 15, 2017
- 894
- 161
- 70
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Divorced
You are giving yourself quite a spin around and confusing yourself rather than really thinking about what I said.
Posting many versions proves nothing apart from using the necessary logic to understand. And if we use that necessary logic we do not need ten thousand versions.
You agreed that we must look to the Greek text, so why are you not doing it?
If you would do it you would find exactly what i told you would find in other of my posts i know you were privy to. It seems clear you have not gotten control of your fight or flight response as yet. There is no need to defend. Defending is a "woe to them that are full" response. It only proves one is so obsessed by what they believe that it is all they can see. No real investigation is possible that way.
There is need to reason as we further investigate. And that is not going to happen if our minds are trapped into a circle of seeing the same old things.
I have explained to you many times concerning the things you post here. One more time will make no difference so long as you are trapped in that box where you only see your own point of view. When you get out of that box you will be able and unafraid to allow yourself to step into another person's shoes and try to see things as they see them for a time. After all, doing that is not abandoning what you believe. It is both showing respect for others who speak to you and giving you a chance to really check the validity of your beliefs.
Try your post again. Shorten it up by being more specific about what you disagree with and be ready to actually step into my shoes with me so as to take an honest uninhibited look at what I am saying.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Buzz_B
Well-Known Member
- Oct 15, 2017
- 894
- 161
- 70
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Divorced
Ask yourselves: What about those who were born less fortunate in their brain capacity and powers of reasoning? They may get involved in sin merely because of their handicap. And that handicap keeps them spiritually dead. Some may actually join you in the church, mimicking people they like,, they may mimic you and claim to have faith in Christ. But until they are restored physically they have no real chance. Sure, some of them actually get a lot better after they start mimicking another of faith in Christ. But not all do. And many of those that do yet cannot fully have God's law written in their hearts for the lack of mental capacity.
And that was only one of many reasons why people may remain rather innocently as spiritually dead. God cares about all our causes of bondage.
God's thousand year judgment day of the as yet spiritually dead solves that dilemma for them. That judgment is not a single day of condemnation (a word that in most cases is a wrong translation). Whereas the judgment of the church going on right now concerns itself with God's elect and was and is a long period of time (1 Peter 4:17), so also that judgment of the as yet spiritually dead takes time. And God allotted it a thousand years.
And that was only one of many reasons why people may remain rather innocently as spiritually dead. God cares about all our causes of bondage.
God's thousand year judgment day of the as yet spiritually dead solves that dilemma for them. That judgment is not a single day of condemnation (a word that in most cases is a wrong translation). Whereas the judgment of the church going on right now concerns itself with God's elect and was and is a long period of time (1 Peter 4:17), so also that judgment of the as yet spiritually dead takes time. And God allotted it a thousand years.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
