Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

David Kent · Dec 26, 2017

claninja said:
A.)the great city is Jerusalem
Revelation 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.

Not Jerusalem, Rome

The Great City, the megatropolis was Rome. It was the city which ruled over the world when Revelation was written. Christ was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem, but in the great city of greater Rome. In the RC mass he still is.

The great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

Rome was that city at the time it was written.

The early church writers quite correctly understood that the Temple in the book of revelation is the Church.

Paul tell us that is so,

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Preterists and futurists let Rome off the hook with their teachings, which is not surprising as the Jesuits pushed these teachings.

Steve Petersen · Dec 26, 2017

Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 73 AD. Early in the second century the Jewish people rebelled again against Rome. This time the Romans completely leveled the city and built a new city over it called Aelia Capitolina. Perhaps this is how Rome and Jerusalem came to be equated.

Douggg · Dec 26, 2017

Davy said:
No less important is the future role God has given to Satan of coming to earth to play Messiah and fool the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem,

What do the Jews expect of the messiah ?

claninja · Dec 26, 2017

David Kent said:
Not Jerusalem, Rome

The Great City, the megatropolis was Rome. It was the city which ruled over the world when Revelation was written. Christ was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem, but in the great city of greater Rome. In the RC mass he still is.

The great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

Rome was that city at the time it was written.

Please provide scripture that shows Rome was spiritually called Egypt and Sodom.

Until then, let's use scripture to interpret scripture:

The great city was spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.
1.) Jerusalem has been compared to Egypt
Ezekiel 23:1-4
The word of the LORD came to me: 2“Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother.3 They played the harlot in Egypt; they played the harlot in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosomsa handled. 4Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholahis Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.

2.) Jerusalem has been compared to Sodom
Isaiah 1:10
Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

claninja · Dec 26, 2017

David Kent said:
Christ was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem, but in the great city of greater Rome. In the RC mass he still is.

Luke 13:33-34
He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’ 33In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!
34“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

claninja · Dec 26, 2017

David Kent said:
Not Jerusalem, Rome

You'll also have to provide scripture that shows God would punish Rome for this:

Revelation 18:24
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Until then, I'll leave you with scripture who Jesus stated would be punished for the above verse:

Matthew 23:35-38
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.38Look, your house is left to you desolate.

David Kent · Dec 27, 2017

claninja said:
Revelation 18:24
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

That great city which reigned over the kings of the earth at that time was ROME. She has always been sodomite in her actions. It has always been a pit of iniquity, She killed the saints in the time of Pagan Rome, she has done so far more under Papal Rome,

The book of Revelation is written to the church, it concerns the church and is the history of the church written in advance under the form of symbols, figures or signs, Revelation 1:1 It is signified.

Steve Petersen said:
Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 73 AD. Early in the second century the Jewish people rebelled again against Rome. This time the Romans completely leveled the city and built a new city over it called Aelia Capitolina. Perhaps this is how Rome and Jerusalem came to be equated.

Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 and dug up the foundations of the temple. Not one stone was left upon another. "Zion was plowed like a field" Josephus.

Douggg · Dec 27, 2017

claninja said:
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.38Look, your house is left to you desolate.

clanninja, go a little futher in Matthew 23...

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

So Jerusalem is going to be in right standing with the Lord when Jesus returns.

claninja · Dec 27, 2017

Douggg said:
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

I agree with with exactly what the verse says. Unfaithful Israel would not see/perceive who Jesus was until they realized he came in the name of the Lord.

claninja · Dec 27, 2017

David Kent said:
Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

That great city which reigned over the kings of the earth at that time was ROME. She has always been sodomite in her actions. It has always been a pit of iniquity, She killed the saints in the time of Pagan Rome, she has done so far more under Papal Rome,

The book of Revelation is written to the church, it concerns the church and is the history of the church written in advance under the form of symbols, figures or signs, Revelation 1:1 It is signified.

Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 and dug up the foundations of the temple. Not one stone was left upon another. "Zion was plowed like a field" Josephus.

Again, you are going to have to provide scripture that shows Rome has been compared to egypt and sodom, Jesus was crucified away from Jerusalem, and that all the righteous blood shed of the prophets and saints would come on Rome.

Otherwise, your arguments hold no ground.

John Prewett · Dec 27, 2017

During the past 1500 or so years, only the Vatican could be "Babylon the Great"
Naturally, some billion Papist won't admit it.
btw: Soon NYCity will be nuked ... and Vatican shills will claim NYCity was "Babylon the Great"

“ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’
She has become a dwelling place of demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
and a haunt for every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all the nations have drunk
of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality,
the kings of the earth have committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the
abundance of her luxury.”

4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying:

“ ‘Come out of her, my people,’
lest you partake in her sins,
and lest you receive her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached up to heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Render to her as she has rendered to you,
and repay her double for her deeds;
in the cup which she has mixed, mix a double portion for her.
7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously,
so give her torment and sorrow;
for in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen, and am no widow,
and will see no sorrow.’
8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—
death and mourning and famine.
And she will be utterly burned with fire,
for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

9 “The kings of the earth, who have committed adultery and lived luxuriously with her, will weep and mourn over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 10 Standing far off for the fear of her torment, they will say:

‘Alas, alas for that great city,
that mighty city, Babylon!
In one hour your judgment has come.’

11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise any more: 12 the merchandise of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet, all kinds of scented wood, all artifacts of ivory, all merchandise of costly wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, myrrh and frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves and souls of men.

14 ‘The fruit that your soul lusted after
has departed from you,
and all the things which graceful and exquisite
have departed from you,
and you shall never find them.’

15 “The merchants of these things, who gained wealth by her, will stand far off for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying:

‘Alas, alas, that great city,
that was arrayed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet,
and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great riches came to nothing!’

claninja · Dec 27, 2017

John Prewett said:
During the past 1500 or so years, only the Vatican could be "Babylon the Great"
Naturally, some billion Papist won't admit it.
btw: Soon NYCity will be nuked ... and Vatican shills will claim NYCity was "Babylon the Great"

“ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’
She has become a dwelling place of demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
and a haunt for every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all the nations have drunk
of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality,
the kings of the earth have committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the
abundance of her luxury.”

4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying:

“ ‘Come out of her, my people,’
lest you partake in her sins,
and lest you receive her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached up to heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Render to her as she has rendered to you,
and repay her double for her deeds;
in the cup which she has mixed, mix a double portion for her.
7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously,
so give her torment and sorrow;
for in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen, and am no widow,
and will see no sorrow.’
8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—
death and mourning and famine.
And she will be utterly burned with fire,
for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

9 “The kings of the earth, who have committed adultery and lived luxuriously with her, will weep and mourn over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 10 Standing far off for the fear of her torment, they will say:

‘Alas, alas for that great city,
that mighty city, Babylon!
In one hour your judgment has come.’

11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise any more: 12 the merchandise of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet, all kinds of scented wood, all artifacts of ivory, all merchandise of costly wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, myrrh and frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves and souls of men.

14 ‘The fruit that your soul lusted after
has departed from you,
and all the things which graceful and exquisite
have departed from you,
and you shall never find them.’

15 “The merchants of these things, who gained wealth by her, will stand far off for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying:

‘Alas, alas, that great city,
that was arrayed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet,
and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great riches came to nothing!’

I’m by no means a “papist” nor am i a practicing Catholic.

In order to prove your point, you must provide 1.)scripture that shows the papacy is the great city thatwas compared to Egypt and sodom 2.) Please provide scripture that shows Jesus was crucified in the Vatican City. 3.)Please provide scripture that shows papacy would be punished for the blood of the prophets and saints

and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Revelation 11:8

And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”
Revelation 18:24

David Kent · Dec 27, 2017

claninja said:
Again, you are going to have to provide scripture that shows Rome has been compared to egypt and sodom, Jesus was crucified away from Jerusalem, and that all the righteous blood shed of the prophets and saints would come on Rome.

Otherwise, your arguments hold no ground.

Jesus was crucified outside the city walls,

claninja · Dec 27, 2017

David Kent said:
Jesus was crucified outside the city walls,

Which is still part of Jerusalem.

And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course. 33 Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.’
Luke 13:32-33

Again, you have not provided scripture that shows 1.) Rome was compared to sodom and Egypt 2.) Jesus was crucified away from Jerusalem 3.) the bloodshed of all the prophets and saints was on Rome.

parousia70 · Dec 27, 2017

Who is it here that keeps suggesting Christ didn't die in Jerusalem? C'mon, get with the program. Jesus died in Jerusalem:

Luke 24:18
One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?"

Luke 13:33
"Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem.

Douggg · Dec 27, 2017

claninja said:
I agree with with exactly what the verse says. Unfaithful Israel would not see/perceive who Jesus was until they realized he came in the name of the Lord.

It doesn't say Israel and it doesn't say unfaithful.

Ezekiel 38 and 39, God defends Israel.

parousia70 · Dec 27, 2017

Mystery Babylon = JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL

Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots is described by scripture as none other than Jerusalem and Apostate Israel, with her record of violence against all the righteous prophets. The bible clearly identifies her as Jerusalem and Apostate Israel. Let's let scripture interpret scripture for a minute:

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]

MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt taketwo onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

claninja · Dec 27, 2017

Douggg said:
It doesn't say Israel and it doesn't say unfaithful.

Who is the "you" Jesus is talking to?

39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’c ”

It's obviously unfaithful Israel:

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

So you believe Jesus was addressing faithful Jews/Jerusalem/Israel when he spoke in Matthew 23?
_________________________________________________________________________________

Douggg said:
Ezekiel 38 and 39, God defends Israel.

I agree. And who is the true Israel? It is those who are in Christ who are Abraham's seed:

Romans 2:28-29
A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”f

Galatians 3:26-29
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Davy · Dec 27, 2017

claninja said:
I agree with with exactly what the verse says. Unfaithful Israel would not see/perceive who Jesus was until they realized he came in the name of the Lord.

And that won't be until He shows up at His second coming.

claninja · Dec 27, 2017

Davy said:
And that won't be until He shows up at His second coming.

There weren’t any Jews who were unfaithful and blind to the messiah at the time Jesus gave this speech, who would later convert and believe and thereby “see/perceive” Jesus as the Christ?

Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

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