how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

ClementofA

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its interesting how some who profess to be christians follow the bible the KJV and other follow other man made interpretations of other versions. There is a great difference in many version of the things of God. Some groups have altered text to create their own doctrines Like the JW's and their translation of John 1:1 etc. Or to escape the consequence of THE BIBLE (the King James Bible).

Lets put it this way, I and many other true christians are King James Bible christians, if that helps the difference. I believe the Bible and don't need to twist Greek words and escape the clear consequence of text. Yes I am not against understanding the word in the scripture and getting more meaning, but don't change the word. The context always defines the meaning as this very

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Here we see that everlasting punishment is equal in scope and contrary to the opposite eternal life. The same greek word for both everlasting and eternal is used. So if any in the Universalist camp or other camps, try to say that life eternal is forever and ever and never ends, they must also say that everlasting punishment is for ever and ever and never ends. This verse blast them out of the water. Many fancy twist have been made to escape the clear consequence of this verse and many others.


I read the book Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment by Robert Peterson. He makes a solid argument. Would recommend it. He includes this quote from Augustine's City of God,

what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternal punishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, "These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal!" Matthew 25:46 If both destinies are "eternal," then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative — on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.

"This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again."

Augustine was rather ignorant of Greek.

For some other parallels in Scripture consider:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

David Burnfield makes an interesting point re Matthew 25:46:

"None of the sins listed in [the context of] Matt.25:46 can be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

He quotes Mt.12:31:

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." (NASB)

And emphasizes the words "any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people".

He then says "If we can believe what Christ tells us, then the 'only' sin that is 'not' forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which obviously does not include the sins listed in Matt.25:34-44."

Then he quotes from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God...":

"Verse...46, in particular, has always been cited as undeniable proof that Jesus taught eternal punishment. Yet it is clear that the sins Jesus listed in this passage do not constitute the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Assuming Jesus did not utter this word with the intention of contradicting what he said moments before [Matt 12:31], we must accept that the sins mentioned in this passage [Matt 25:46] will eventually be forgiven. This means, however strange it may sound to us, that this statement of Jesus about eternal punishment is not the final word for those who are condemned."

(pg 220-221, Patristic Universalism: An Alternative To The Traditional View of Divine Judgement, 2nd ed, 2016, by David Burnfield)

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

The NT translation of Eastern Orthodox scholar Bentley Hart does not use the words "eternal" or "everlasting" at Mt.25:46, but instead reads "chastening of that Age" & "life of that Age". (The New Testament: A Translation, 2017, Yale University Press).

Many other versions do likewise, as listed here:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/from-here-to-eternity-how-long-is-forever/

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

The fire wasn't eternal & neither is the "eternal fire" or punishment in Mt.25:41,46.

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, earlier in the same gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

That includes the murderous Pharisees, Judas Iscariot & all other Jews. And since God is no respecter of person, the Gentiles will also be saved, as the Scriptures reveal.

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since if is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Once saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.

Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"

Another Aionios Thread - These Things Go On Forever

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Chapter Nine

"Walvoord appeals to Matthew 25:46 (“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian,” CV), declaring that if the state of the blessed is eternal, as expressed by this word, there is no logical reason for giving limited duration to punishment."

"This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again. From the fact that the life of the just nations and the chastening of the unjust nations are herein described by the same adjective, descriptive of duration, it does not follow that the latter group of nations, therefore, will be subjected to endless punishment. The argument assumes what is at issue by presuming that the life of the just, here, is termed an endless life. Simply because, on certain grounds, the life of those persons comprising the just nations will prove to be endless, it does not follow that the blessing of life afforded here to any such nations is therefore that of endless duration. It is as unreasonable to assume that eonian life doubtlessly signifies endless life as it would be to claim that youthful life actually signifies aged life, simply because our presuppositions and predilections may dictate such a conclusion."

"Professor Tayler Lewis (who was not a universalist) in commenting on what he calls the Olamic or Aeonian words of the Scripture, affirms that “they denote . . . the world [i.e., in the sense of duration] in time, or as a time-existence” (i.e., the “life” of the object thus described or delineated). He insists that these words are, in themselves, wholly indefinite (even though he conceives that, in Matthew 25:46, the scene is one of “finality”). Hence, concerning aiõnios, he states: “It would be more in accordance with the plainest etymological usage to give it simply the sense of olamic or aeonic, or to regard it as denoting, like the Jewish olam habba, the world [i.e., duration] to come."

“ ‘These shall go away into the punishment [the restraint, imprisonment] of the world to come, and these into the life of the world to come.’ That is all we can etymologically or exegetically make of the word in this passage. And so is it ever in the Old Syriac Version [i.e., the Peshito], where the one [i.e., uniform] rendering is still more unmistakably clear: ‘These shall go away to the pain of the olam, and these to the life of the olam’–the world to come.”

"...It is simply contrary to historical fact to suggest that the essence of these time expressions is that of endless duration. As Thomas De Quincey, the nineteenth century essayist and literary critic states: “All this speculation, first and last, is pure nonsense. Aiõnios does not mean ‘eternal,’ neither does it mean of limited duration . . . . What is an aiõn? The duration or cycle of existence which belongs to any object, not individually of itself, but universally, in right of its genius [i.e., inherent nature] . . . . The exact amount of the duration expressed by an aiõn depends altogether upon the particular subject which yields the aiõn.” "

"...Likewise, the Presbyterian Bible scholar, M. R. Vincent, in his extensive note on aiõn/aiõnios states: “Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.” "

"...not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version).

"In this response to your “deeply troubled” encounter with the Concordant Version, I have principally sought not to prove my position, but to open a door to its consideration; a door of further inquiry, with a view toward your attaining an awareness of the grace of God in truth, even as of the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord (Eph.3:11). May our God and Father be pleased to use this writing unto such an end."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
 
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LoveofTruth

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You said "torment is not torture" burning in a literal fire
The universalist and those who like to reject biblical teaching on the fires of hell and the lake of fire, like to add the word "literal" fire.

As afar as what kind of fire will burn and torment some, I am sure that most people know the word Fire and burning and fire never quenched is not a pleasant image. It denotes torment and suffering and horror and judgement.

we read that the word "fire" means "fiery, fire". Well look at that it means what is says.

and we read of the effect of fire

Mark 9:43 and 45

"43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:...45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"(Mark 9:43,45 KJV)

This fire shall never be quenched as the text reads. But with some they would have the text read in their way of understanding,

"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched (
as long as the material is there for it to burn, then it will be quenched):


we also read of the effect of fire or flames

"24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for
I am tormented in this flame."

Torment means to grieve sorrow. Just what we would have thought it to mean. We also read

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."(Matthew 13:40 KJV)

so far fire seems to have a effect exactly as one would suppose it would. The image of burning in fire and torments in fire and fire that is never quenched is a horrible one and I believe exactly as the Lord would have it be.
 
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LoveofTruth

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1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Have you ever considered that all infants who come into the world are made alive by the work of Christ on the cross and saved until they hate the Light, then they are condemned (John 3‚ and until sin revives and they die (Romans 7:9) . The would answer some of the verses that universalist try to use.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Blasted

Wow, you blasted me out of the water with that -- didn't see that coming. May you have a happy aion until you pass away and may you also possess aionios life.
so you are openly repenting of your heresy?
 
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ClementofA

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The universalist and those who like to reject biblical teaching on the fires of hell and the lake of fire, like to add the word "literal" fire.

As afar as what kind of fire will burn and torment some, I am sure that most people know the word Fire and burning and fire never quenched is not a pleasant image. It denotes torment and suffering and horror and judgement.

we read that the word "fire" means "fiery, fire". Well look at that it means what is says.

and we read of the effect of fire

Mark 9:43 and 45

"43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:...45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"(Mark 9:43,45 KJV)

This fire shall never be quenched as the text reads. But with some they would have the text read in their way of understanding,

"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched (
as long as the material is there for it to burn, then it will be quenched):

we also read of the effect of fire or flames

"24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for
I am tormented in this flame."

Torment means to grieve sorrow. Just what we would have thought it to mean. We also read

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."(Matthew 13:40 KJV)

so far fire seems to have a effect exactly as one would suppose it would. The image of burning in fire and torments in fire and fire that is never quenched is a horrible one and I believe exactly as the Lord would have it be.


Also you might want to check out these

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


v. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

Nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew5/D5-BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Nothing here says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A key to Universalism

Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24).

As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.

"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is
corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."

"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.




"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo
told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

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"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the
eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life."
(Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna]
until you have paid up the last cent. The word ―until unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!
 
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LoveofTruth

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Who can compete against your theology.:bow:
all I need is to quote scripture to compete against your theology

sadly when people arguments run out or when the cut and paste route fails they resort to mockery
 
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At the end of Isaiah 66, all flesh goes out to a place - and looks upon the men that have transgressed against God.
Jesus Christ also told of this place as - hell fire. Their worm will not die.

The OT shows that God will have indignation for ever against the people in Edom. That land will become burning pitch and brimstone. It will be called the border of wickedness.
How does God show us a carnal people spiritual things? He uses the natural world as an example that is how. God is a spirit and spiritual being have no use for natural physical fire. The Lake of Fire is spiritual for this reason plus John was in Spirit on the Lord's day and the Book of Revelation is the most spiritual symbolic book ever written. Yes the worm die not tell all carnality is eaten and all flesh shall see the salvation of God in the end. Brimstone is suffer and is a type for purification in fact the word fire comes from the Greek word "pur" which we get our English word pure, purify purge etc.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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all I need is to quote scripture to compete against your theology

sadly when people arguments run out or when the cut and paste route fails they resort to mockery
Cut and paste is a awesome tool of computers. Problem is when all you get is the same old dead arguments you might as well use the same answers over and over again.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Just as the "wheat" is not going to live in the same state as it is at the time of harvest, neither will the chaff. The chaff is wicked /people that are alive at the time of the end of this world. They will be gathered and changed to bodies for the unquenchable fire. They are not cast into the fire as little pieces but with their soul and body. They are cast into the place of unquenchable fire. I don't see that as meaning no rain will come upon it to drench it out, but that even prayer by the just will not stop this fire. There was a fire that came out in the OT and rain did not quench it - but it took Moses praying first and the fire was quenched. This means to me that even all of the just pray for all of eternity to end the torment of those wicked people in the hell fire/lake of fire/outer darkness/everlasting punishment/ it will not matter. God Almighty is not going to stop those on fire, due to saints praying for Him to. their fire shall not be quenched
They will be looked upon by the just it seems for all of eternity as a warning to obey God.
In the time of Zechariah 14 there is a punishment given as to what happens to those that don't obey -don't come to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles. - no rain for them
But in the time of Isaiah 66 as it closes out -we find an order as to when all will come to worship Him and no punishment given as all seem to do it.
I like your wheat example because Jesus was a Shepard and knew that when the wheat was green and young there was no difference for the chaff is nothing but the outer protective shell of the wheat and once the wheat is fully matured the chaff and becomes useless because the wheat has no need for its outer cover to make bread. So no the chaff is the wheat is immature state not the loss or the people God has never called. So yes God's fire will burn up the chaff because God's purpose wa s the wheat
 
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Cat Loaf You

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v. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

Nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

Bible Threatening Explained

Nothing here says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A key to Universalism

Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24).

As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.

"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is
corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."

"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.




"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo
told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

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"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the
eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life."
(Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna]
until you have paid up the last cent. The word ―until unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!


Not even gonna bother reading it just will give this one and don't bother responding to me with wall of text again thanks .

Psalm 49

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)
 
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SBC

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Eternal Separation from God IS the torturous Punishment.

Spirits, ie Angels, do not have Physical Nerves.

Dead bodies of men, have Dead Nerves.

Fire does Not Torture them with PAIN!

Fire Purifies.

Fallen Angels and Men who Reject God Shall eternally be in a state of Purification...and eternally Separated FROM GOD.

Their constant state of Purification, BY Fire,
Does not benefit them.....However it does Benefit the LIVING, WHO BELIEVED, and RECEIVED Forever Life from God, and a PROMISE to Occupy this Earth VOID of ALL EVIL AND WICKEDNESS.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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razzelflabben

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You said "torment is not torture" and "God doesn't torture" --- those are words -- make up your mind. I pulled those quotes and they stand alone, no need for the rest.
as I said you must view them in context in order to understand what is being said. One can be in torment without being tortured...likewise something can be tortured without someone torturing them. It is different definitions of the same word and the only way to know what is being said or iows which definition is being used is through context...opps there is that word again...context of which you have removed from what I said thus allowing you to twist it into something I didn't say then trying to argue that you are above reproach....lol

So, lets try this again even though I shouldn't have to because my posts were very clear to anyone who read them for comprehension

Hell is a place of eternal torment which is torturous however, hell is not a place of torture where God is putting us on a rack so to speak or pulling out our fingernails type torture. It all goes back to what I said many times over, hell is the consequence of sin not the punishment for sin and if you figure that out you will understand what I am saying.
It like someone saying, "There is no hell!" and then someone else quotes them for saying that and you they come back and say, "Well, you took it out of context." I don't care what context or how many words they have around it -- I see that the person said, "there is no hell" and the rest doesn't matter.
lol and so if that person said, "Joe said there is no hell" you would still insist they think there is not hell because they said "there is not hell" and context is not important....wow, that is some really messed up thinking you are bringing to the table....maybe you should stop talking to me or about what you reinvented me as saying if that is the best you got.
So fire and brimstone is real and people are thrown into it, for eternity and that is not torture -- just torment AND so I don't assume anything, IS GOD RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT PAIN AND SUFFERING?
lol I have explained this many times over but apparently you don't read for comprehension only for picking out words or phrases you think you have a right to argue about.

1. as I said, something can be torture without there being someone torturing them. That is why hell is torment and not a torture chamber.
2. hell is the natural law of a holy God interacting with an unholy people. As such there is no blame to be placed on it. An example would by you asking who is responsible for me being held to the ground by gravity...no one is responsible it is the very nature of gravity.
So you are not part of the "hell fire and brimstone crowd". What does that mean? You either believe people go there and are "tormented" forever or not --_ burning in a literal fire If you believe that there is hell fire, then you are part of that crowd. You may not care to talk about it, you may avoid it or simply play it down: "I don't see why people get so upset about hell ..."
now now now, what did I say the reason I am not part of the hell fire and brimstone crowd is? Come on, if you are being the least bit honest in this discussion you read what I said and know the answer.

I believe in hell and that it is eternal torment. I believe unbelievers go there. We have talked about all of that and I have clarified multiple times. I don't even mind talking about hell for if I did I wouldn't be here. where I digress from the hell fire and brimstone crowd is the emphasis they put on hell. YOu see, scripture puts the emphasis on life not on hell and I personally think we should do the same. Since scripture is not afraid to talk about hell I don't see any reason to avoid the discussion but for every other word that comes out of my mouth to be about the horrors of hell is out of line with what scripture teaches thus out of line with where I think we need to be in our discussions and teachings as well.
In what proportions should churches teach hell fire and brimstone. As much as the Bible teaches it -- which is cut and dry, if you don't go to Heaven, you go to Hell. It's hard to avoid, it's there almost every time one is taught about salvation, being saved, forgiveness ...
oh contraire my dear fellow...what scripture teaches is life. If this were not so then there would be no debate about what hell is.
What are we being saved from? Destruction in the Lake of Fire.
salvation is about what we are being saved too...eternal fellowship face to face with God and what we are being saved from...sin and death.
If we believe in Jesus, we go to heaven, if not -- destruction in the Lake of Fire.
yep but there is much much more to the believers life...check out this passage...Hebrews 2:14; Romans 8:3; 1 Corinthians 15:54; 2 Timothy 1:10; Hebrews 2:17
The whole Bible speaks from the beginning of a SAVIOR and it's in the back of everyone's mind - Savior from what? --- destruction in the Lake of Fire.
what scripture teaches is that we are saved to life by faith in the one who came to destroy both sin and death. If we started teaching that more than hell fire we would see a revival in the church. Further consider this passage...1 Corinthians 4:20; I encourage everyone to do a biblical study on the power of salvation/God in our lives. It's amazing and much more powerful than any teaching on hell fire.
We ask someone, "Are you saved?" They say yes or no or saved from what. We spread the gospel, we witness, we warn people and all this to share with people, Jesus, His gift of eternal _ so that they will avoid destruction in the Lake of Fire.
yep...but how is that possible? That is the heart of the message. The core of the teaching of scripture and of Jesus Christ Himself is not hell fire but HOW Jesus Christ can take away the sin of the world and how we can live in the same power that raised Him from the dead. The hell fire and brimstone crowd miss all that wonderful scriptural teaching because they are obsessed with hell and not obsessed with God Himself.
I don't like churches that use this in the forefront of their teaching but it can't be absent. My pastor always started with Grace and said to always end with Grace.
Listen, I think we are on a different page and believe differently -- let's just quit, we aren't in agreement, you can't even own up to your own quotes.
lol I have no problem with my quotes I only asked you to leave them in context....and just for the record, life is about grace.

I think we agree on more than you want to admit you just refuse to hear what is being said and in this post alone you admit to not reading everything and understanding it in the context it was given which is a huge problem for communication.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Who can compete against your theology.:bow:
if you do Christ will you will know the doctrine. it is not mine but from the Lord in scripture for all to know as they abide in Christ who is eternal life.
 
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Ronald

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if you do Christ will you will know the doctrine. it is not mine but from the Lord in scripture for all to know as they abide in Christ who is eternal life.
I am in Christ, born again, washed by His blood, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, Whom lives in me. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures and believe every word of the Bible. I'm just pointing out that the original Greek was translated into many languages and there are at least hundred translations into English by a myriad of PhD scholars who spent many years with the task. I do not claim that I am capable at all of doing that. I've examined many versions and see the variations in the translations. It's obvious that aion and aionios is not only used to describe a time moving forward infinitely. It also describe temporal periods of time. If you choose to ignore that fact, your choice. I can point out errors in the KJ, but it would be useless, you are devoted -- that's OK.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I am in Christ, born again, washed by His blood, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, Whom lives in me. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures and believe every word of the Bible. I'm just pointing out that the original Greek was translated into many languages and there are at least hundred translations into English by a myriad of PhD scholars who spent many years with the task. I do not claim that I am capable at all of doing that. I've examined many versions and see the variations in the translations. It's obvious that aion and aionios is not only used to describe a time moving forward infinitely. It also describe temporal periods of time. If you choose to ignore that fact, your choice. I can point out errors in the KJ, but it would be useless, you are devoted -- that's OK.
To preach or teach or imply that there is another way for lost sinners to be saved rather than faith in Christ and His work for salvation on the cross and resurrection in this life is to preach another gospel. Men cannot be saved after death as it is appointed unto men once to die then the judgement. If hell was some kind of purgation where they would eventually be saved that would be another gospel and accursed doctrine. The devil is crafty and he plays with words and strives with words etc.

The payment for sin is death and eternal separation from God they cannot pay to the uttermost ( eternity forever and ever)
 
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To preach or teach or imply that there is another way for lost sinners to be saved rather than faith in Christ and His work for salvation on the cross and resurrection in this life is to preach another gospel. Men cannot be saved after death as it is appointed unto men once to die then the judgement. If hell was some kind of purgation where they would eventually be saved that would be another gospel and accursed doctrine. The devil is crafty and he plays with words and strives with words etc.

The payment for sin is death and eternal separation from God they cannot pay to the uttermost ( eternity forever and ever)
Ever since I had shoulder surgery, I think I came up with the perfect analogy of what's going on. At least my belief:

When I was put under before surgery, I was asked to take a deep breath. I did. He then asked me to take another one. I did, but in the middle of that second breath I was suddenly in the recovery room several hours later.

I think that is the experience of the lost (and maybe the saved). You die and are instantly at the GWTJ, even if you died in the great flood.

Interestingly, I had a dream about 50 years ago that also went like that. I dreamed I slammed my car into a solid concrete barrier in Tukwilla Washington on the Green river just south of Costco (though costco was not there then). But when I hit the concrete, It was like breaking through an opaque glass window with blinding bright light on the other side.

I'm using both as illustrations, not as some sort of vision or anything.

And I think they fit in with what the bible says about the time between death and the judgement, so I'm good. :)
 
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