liberal approaches to homosexuality and transgender

hedrick said:

The OP wasn't intended to be new. It was intended to be a summary, for reference.

I didn't expect to change anyone's mind. It's a matter of what you think Paul's letters are. I think they're letters, by someone who had experienced Christ, guiding 1st Cent churches. You think they're eternal law. The evidence is on my side, but there's nothing I can do to change someone's basic faith commitment.

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right,

when all else fails, just say the scriptures are uninspired works with no authority.

THE W said:

you could say it, you just wouldn't be able to prove it, which is why this has been moved to a safe space.

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If this was moved to a safe space, it's probably because gay and lesbian people are often the targets of abuse rather than the theology needs a safe space.

As for "proving" it, consider this: if you're right, I'm headed straight for hell. I used to believe that too. So my question to you would be, how stupid do you think I am? (Because if I couldn't prove it to myself, I'm choosing hell)

THE W said:

right,

when all else fails, just say the scriptures are uninspired works with no authority.

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I'm not sure stating that they're letters is the same as denying inspiration. There are different genres in the Bible after all.

For the record, I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, and all of it must be taken seriously.

DW1980 said:

If this was moved to a safe space, it's probably because gay and lesbian people are often the targets of abuse....

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you aren't though,

I've read through many a thread on this topic and it's usually people bringing exegetical evidence to bear and the gay advocates accusing people of being discriminatory, unloving, and bigoted for pointing out that scripture condemns homosexuality.

DW1980 said:

As for "proving" it, consider this: if you're right, I'm headed straight for hell. I used to believe that too. So my question to you would be, how stupid do you think I am? (Because if I couldn't prove it to myself, I'm choosing hell)

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you wouldn't be the first..

hedrick said:

The question isn’t Paul’s inspiration. He met Jesus, and received a message from him. My point about letters being letters is that they were written for specific people in a specific situation. Of course Jesus died for us in the 21 Cent just like in the 1st. But there are ethical questions today that Paul didn’t face. You can’t always use his letters to answer those questions.

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are you willing to be consistent with this and say it's okay for us to have sex with our sisters?

hedrick said:

No, because nothing has changed that would make this more acceptable.

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ok, so you're not willing to be consistent. no surprise there.

homosexuality and incest are known and condemned in scripture yet you have chosen to ignore one and head the other based on nothing more than current cultural norms. so much for the authority of scripture.

What does the bible consider incest?(besides sex between brother and sister)

hedrick said:

No, because nothing has changed that would make this more acceptable.

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You got a troll in your thread.

THE W said:

you aren't though,

I've read through many a thread on this topic and it's usually people bringing exegetical evidence to bear and the gay advocates accusing people of being discriminatory, unloving, and bigoted for pointing out that scripture condemns homosexuality.



you wouldn't be the first..

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Can you fine one place I called anyone discriminatory, unloving or bigoted? I happen to respect that some people hold different views, just as we do on baptism, the role of women in the Church, etc. I do expect to be treated with the same respect, and at least an acknowledgement that I am basing my views on the Bible - even if you disagree with me. That would be fair.

The difference here is that I disagree with you on Scripture condemning loving same sex relationships.

xpower said:

What does the bible consider incest?(besides sex between brother and sister)

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Definitely condemned, see 1 Corinthians 5.

DW1980 said:

Can you fine one place I called anyone discriminatory, unloving or bigoted?

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I suppose you'd have a point if you comprised every single gay advocate who spoke on the subject.

DW1980 said:

and at least an acknowledgement that I am basing my views on the Bible

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sorry, but I'm not going to concede something that's false.

hedrick said:

Sort of like what happened to my cousin. She married an evangelical man whose faith led him not to acknowledge that he was gay. Or maybe transgender. It was never clear. (Obviously she didn't know this when they got married.) The results were not good.

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My issue is that each gay man that I know of had a gay father
who for some time, married their mother. And the gay girl
I dated as a teen, had a father that likely was in the closet.
So why would anyone wish gay men to marry women and have children?

THE W said:

after reading through all this it doesn't seam like the gay advocates have come up with anything new. nothing here that hasn't been refuted.

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Ok. Here is my list to refute.
So far no attempt has been made:
Let me begin explaining across the street is Rob, one of my gay neighbors.


Matthew 19:19
Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19
You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor
for his good,
to build him up.

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Proverbs 3:29
Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 6:10
So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Zechariah 8:16
These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Zechariah 8:17
Do not devise evil in your hearts against one another, and love no false oath, for all these things I hate, declares the Lord.”

Proverbs 3:28
Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.

Psalm 15:1-3
A Psalm of David. O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend;

Exodus 20:16
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:13
“You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning.

hedrick said:

On homosexuality: there are surely prohibitions of same-gender sex (though the OT prohibition is probably only for males).

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That is a BIG clue. Becasue female-female relationships are normal and common and fairly invisible.
The only complaint in scripture is against sex outside of marriage. Gays were criticized for being
public and not committed. That is all.

SkyWriting said:

Ok. Here is my list to refute.
So far no attempt has been made:
Let me begin explaining across the street is Rob, one of my gay neighbors.


Matthew 19:19
Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19
You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor
for his good,
to build him up.

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Proverbs 3:29
Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 6:10
So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Zechariah 8:16
These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Zechariah 8:17
Do not devise evil in your hearts against one another, and love no false oath, for all these things I hate, declares the Lord.”

Proverbs 3:28
Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.

Psalm 15:1-3
A Psalm of David. O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend;

Exodus 20:16
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:13
“You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning.

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now are you willing to be consistent here and treat your other neighbor bill who is dating his sister the same way?

THE W said:

now are you willing to be consistent here and treat your other neighbor bill who is dating his sister the same way?

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Absolutely. What good would come from alienating him or her?
Even cannibals. You can only have an influence on friends you love.
If you love only those who are not cannibals, what value is that?

He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what rewardwill you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?

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SkyWriting said:

Absolutely. What good would come from alienating him or her?
Even cannibals. You can only have an influence on friends.
if you live only those who love you, what value is that?

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so you would be willing to say to them that their lifestyle is not sinful and that their relationship is a gift from God(which has been said about homosexuality)?