Are collections of 'tithes and offerings' what Yeshua really taught?

Heber Book List · Dec 12, 2017

Open Heart said:
My parish does fundraising events because, quite frankly, parishioners don't tithe.

Maybe there's a need to teach it?

We also have the benefit, as well, of Gift Aid so that if you pay tax, your gifts to Registered, or Excepted Charities, will have 28% of your tax payment refunded direct to the charity(ies) up to the total value of tax you have paid in that Fiscal Year.

pat34lee · Dec 12, 2017

HARK! said:
I don't feel obligated to give to keeping a building open; but I recognize the value of doing such. I used that building to share and to learn. In turn others who attend can do the same. I see the value in contributing to keeping that venue open; but let's not turn this into a false dichotomy.

I no longer believe that. If Yahweh wants us in a building,
he will provide the money to buy it. If not, people already
have houses. You open them to as many as will come, and
other houses do the same. No corporation or denomination
necessary.

pat34lee · Dec 12, 2017

Dave-W said:
1:10 is for households. Figuring an average of 4 people (dad, mom, 2 kids) per house, that would allow for 2-3 pastors. 150 would give you 3-4, assuming all were full time employed.

How many people can a pastor ACTUALLY pastor? (be involved in the congregants' day to day lives)

Better yet, how many can he disciple? The only example
we know had 12. Can anyone do better than him?

Heber Book List · Dec 13, 2017

pat34lee said:
Better yet, how many can he disciple? The only example
we know had 12. Can anyone do better than him?

Correction: Yeshua had many, many disciples - see John 6. The 12 were the inner group who, in a Church setting, would be the Elders, the Trustees, or some other name for those who, with a Minister, are the decision making body, legal Board of Trustees or whatever name others use for that group of people.

pat34lee · Dec 13, 2017

Heber Book List said:
Correction: Yeshua had many, many disciples - see John 6. The 12 were the inner group who, in a Church setting, would be the Elders, the Trustees, or some other name for those who, with a Minister, are the decision making body, legal Board of Trustees or whatever name others use for that group of people.

He had many followers, twelve disciples. The closest thing
today would be apprentices. Someone you teach all of the
secrets of whatever trade. The end result is that the disciple
carries on the master's work just as he did it. I don't know
of any church today that does this.

Dave-W · Dec 14, 2017

pat34lee said:
He had many followers, twelve disciples.

Twelve disciples, THREE close disciples. (Peter, James, John)

The closest thing today would be apprentices.

Or mentors/mentorees

The end result is that the disciple carries on the master's work just as he did it.

Exactly.

I don't know of any church today that does this.

I have been in 2 different groups that tried to do this.

The Discipleship Shepherding group (Christian Growth Ministries) in the 1970s and early 80s tried to do exactly that. It crashed and burned in the mid 1980s for being way too overbearing. The other group is still going, but I left because I saw the signs of what happened before and did not want to take that ride again.

But in Judaism, what this describes is the Yeshiva system. They have made a success of it for over 2000 years.

Heber Book List · Dec 14, 2017

pat34lee said:
He had many followers, twelve disciples. The closest thing
today would be apprentices. Someone you teach all of the
secrets of whatever trade. The end result is that the disciple
carries on the master's work just as he did it. I don't know
of any church today that does this.

Did you not read John 6? The ones who walked away were not just some of the 5000 there in Ch. 5. They were disciples in training, but disciples nonetheless. The core 12 were, as I said above, the equivalent of a body of men who acted as Elders or Deacons, and had been with Yeshua from the beginning, more or less.

pat34lee · Dec 15, 2017

Dave-W said:
I have been in 2 different groups that tried to do this.

The Discipleship Shepherding group (Christian Growth Ministries) in the 1970s and early 80s tried to do exactly that. It crashed and burned in the mid 1980s for being way too overbearing. The other group is still going, but I left because I saw the signs of what happened before and did not want to take that ride again.

But in Judaism, what this describes is the Yeshiva system. They have made a success of it for over 2000 years.

There were other groups, but they seem to fizzle quickly,
as they were created too large to be managed. Remember
Promise Keepers? Even the Yeshiva seems more like a school
than a discipleship program.

As I said, the one example we have that worked had only
twelve disciples. Much larger and you can't give individual
teaching to each. Even in that small a group, people learn
differently and at different rates.

pat34lee · Dec 15, 2017

Heber Book List said:
Did you not read John 6? The ones who walked away were not just some of the 5000 there in Ch. 5. They were disciples in training, but disciples nonetheless. The core 12 were, as I said above, the equivalent of a body of men who acted as Elders or Deacons, and had been with Yeshua from the beginning, more or less.

I read it, which is why I said he had many followers.
Disciples are not followers. They are chosen to be
the next leaders who carry on the work of the master.
They gather new disciples, train them, and so on.
Mark 3:13-14

Heber Book List · Dec 15, 2017

pat34lee said:
I read it, which is why I said he had many followers.
Disciples are not followers. They are chosen to be
the next leaders who carry on the work of the master.
They gather new disciples, train them, and so on.
Mark 3:13-14

I fail to see why any reference to 12 immediately disqualifies any idea that Yeshua may have had more disciples in his group, especially when another part of scripture shows that more were involved in his close group. All your post 'proves' is what I said - that there were 12 in his inner circle. It doesn't prove anything else whatsoever, it is just tradition.

visionary · Dec 23, 2017

There is blessings in tithing..

Laureate · Dec 23, 2017

Even BlessingS in a single tithe!

Those who give there all are candidates to be the recipients of said tithes, seeing how they are set apart for others.

Whether one is on the Giving or Receiving side of the tithing let it be done in Grace, meaning let it not be premeditated nor second guessed when the inclination is placed on one's heart, no, neither expected nor sought after!

Lulav · Dec 24, 2017

Open Heart said:
My parish does fundraising events because, quite frankly, parishioners don't tithe.

From my understanding and from a second party source each member of the church is required to pay a certain amount each month/year and if it's not paid they come around to their homes to collect?

Lulav · Dec 24, 2017

I personally think that what John taught about basically sharing is more in line with what Yeshua taught and what G-d wants from us.

You put some paper into a 'collection plate' and then go about your day/week.----No connection

You see or hear or read about someone in need and you meet that need, food, shelter, clothing,, etc. ---You make a connection.

Yeshua who had more knowledge of everyone on earth, still when face to face with another showed the human attributes we should be showing.

He had pity Matt 14:13-14;

And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

He also did not send them away but fed them too.

20:29-34

"So Jesus had compassion on them, and touched their eyes: and immediately their eyes received sight"

Mark 6:34;

When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.

Luke 7:11-17

Soon afterward, Jesus went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd went along with him.As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out—the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her. When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, “Don’t cry.
Then he went up and touched the bier they were carrying him on, and the bearers stood still. He said, “Young man, I say to you, get up!” The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother."

He wept (John 11:35-36)

He became involved with them, not just told them to be well and went on his way. It's compassion that is shown for another that tithing just doesn't begin to show.

It's about giving and getting. Giving another what they need and in turn you get something money can't buy.

It's as Yeshua said when you give in secret, the Father in heaven see it and your reward is with him. It is not an earthly reward but one of becoming more like him----compassion

Open Heart · Dec 24, 2017

Lulav said:
From my understanding and from a second party source each member of the church is required to pay a certain amount each month/year and if it's not paid they come around to their homes to collect?

I've never heard of such a thing in all my born days. How awful.

Heber Book List · Dec 25, 2017

Lulav said:
From my understanding and from a second party source each member of the church is required to pay a certain amount each month/year and if it's not paid they come around to their homes to collect?

I think you will find that it was the Scottish Presbyterian and or those known as the Wee Frees in Scotland. It was more about why a member had not attended Communion - they used Communion 'tags' for want of the proper description, when you arrived at Church (or a similar system), and after Communion the tags were ticked off against the Membership list and any missing without a known reason were visited by their Deacon to explain their absence, and also to collect their Tithe for the missed week.

Hopefully a Christian Scot can verify or correct that, but that is my understanding.

Lulav · Dec 27, 2017

Heber Book List said:
I think you will find that it was the Scottish Presbyterian and or those known as the Wee Frees in Scotland. It was more about why a member had not attended Communion - they used Communion 'tags' for want of the proper description, when you arrived at Church (or a similar system), and after Communion the tags were ticked off against the Membership list and any missing without a known reason were visited by their Deacon to explain their absence, and also to collect their Tithe for the missed week.

Hopefully a Christian Scot can verify or correct that, but that is my understanding.

Seems it's widespread. This was a RCC and went to the guys home asking for it when he was out of work.

I don't think anyone owes an explanation as to why they didn't attend. It's one thing to visit the sick (which I don't think most do anymore) but to only visit to find out why you didn't come and ask for money? No way.

Heber Book List · Dec 27, 2017

Lulav said:
Seems it's widespread. This was a RCC and went to the guys home asking for it when he was out of work.

I don't think anyone owes an explanation as to why they didn't attend. It's one thing to visit the sick (which I don't think most do anymore) but to only visit to find out why you didn't come and ask for money? No way.

I wasn't condoning it, just saying what happens in some denominations.

Lulav · Dec 27, 2017

Heber Book List said:
I wasn't condoning it, just saying what happens in some denominations.

Not saying you were, just I was surprised that it was 'across the pond' as well. I thought this might just be a local thing as they had just built a newer and much bigger church and were probably anxious to pay off the mortgage and taxes.

Open Heart · Dec 28, 2017

Lulav said:
Seems it's widespread. This was a RCC and went to the guys home asking for it when he was out of work.

It's ridiculous coming from any parish. It sounds like the office manager had a burr up his/her saddle.

Are collections of 'tithes and offerings' what Yeshua really taught?

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