Before Jesus came to the world how were people saved?

SkyWriting · Dec 24, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
"Jesus told this story as a sharp rebuke to the Jewish religious leaders. In the parable, the rich man represents the Jewish nation, and the poor man represents the Gentiles.

Likely it's a true story about actual events. Jesus would avoid
any fiction of any kind if He wanted to be taken seriously.
They are parables only in the fact that they were true stories
re-told for purpose of a larger meaning.

Original Happy Camper · Dec 24, 2017

Hillsage said:
Ellen White's first error IMO is to believe man's nature became evil. Man's nature was just as God created it to be. Man's nature had just never been tempted/tested. And the first time it was, it failed man, with no surprise to God. 'The lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world' was slain because God knew it would be needed....and it was all according to His omniscient plan.

JER 2:19 Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you. Know and see that it is evil and bitter for you to forsake the LORD your God; the fear of me is not in you, says the Lord GOD of hosts.

The very definition of Satan is that of "an opponent" (Hebrew), and "an adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act)," (Greek). And he has been our adversary before God, from the very beginning when he tempted Eve and then Adam.

You are intitled to your opinion as am I

Original Happy Camper · Dec 24, 2017

SkyWriting said:
Likely it's a true story about actual events. Jesus would avoid
any fiction of any kind if He wanted to be taken seriously.
They are parables only in the fact that they were true stories
re-told for purpose of a larger meaning.

Sorry but I disagree as do most of the christian world

Hillsage · Dec 24, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
The angels' nature was just as He had created as well.. in fact we are told that Lucifer was created perfect from the beginning... how did his nature become evil? To say otherwise is to accuse God of creating evil.

God didn't become omniscient after creating anything He ever created IMO. So yes, Satan was perfectly made for the purpose that God intended.
Adam's calling was to till the Garden. Whose job was it to keep "the beasts of the field/serpent out? Adam was created where all the world was, then God removed him from 'the world' outside and planted a Garden to the East and put Adam in it.

All of God's created being were given the gift of free will... Adam and Eve disobeyed God and were separated form Him, just as Satan was.

Please share a free will scripture and we'll discuss it. I'm not of the persuasion that God is a Theist and not a Deist.

Albion · Dec 24, 2017

SkyWriting said:
Yes, I hope that is what I'm saying.

It doesn't address the question of the thread, though, does it? That's why I replied as I did.

SkyWriting · Dec 24, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
Sorry but I disagree as do most of the christian world

"Majority rules" is used more in science than in Revelations.
But your post is informative.

I think Jesus always told true stories because He
really had no need to make up anything. Only
humans with limited knowledge of the world need
to create fictions to make a point. Jesus did not
have limited knowledge of the world He created.

It has been said that all other writers were also
speaking for Jesus. If you believe that all scripture
is God-breathed then you should be able to make
leap ---> that all scripture is non-fiction.

mkgal1 · Dec 24, 2017

The meaning of "parable" (most understand "story" to mean fiction):

1. a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. 2. a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like. Origin of parable.

Hillsage · Dec 24, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
You are intitled to your opinion as am I

.
until the day of judgment when we shall truly know as we have been known, 'opinion' fills a pretty big bag.....that is 'of course' IMO.

mkgal1 · Dec 24, 2017

About "consuming fire"? Does the Bible ever say (specifically) that it's PEOPLE God is destroying? Or....does it imply--as makes sense to me--that He is destroying sin/evil (the "chaff"....the "contaminants")?

"Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe For our God is a consuming fire.~Hebrews 12:29

"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."~1 Corinthians 3:15

Edited to change "consuming" to "destroying".
....and to add this from Exodus 3:2:

"Then the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire within a bush. As Moses looked, he saw that the bush was on fire but was not consumed."

Still editing

to add:

"John the Baptist predicted that Jesus would baptize "with the Holy Spirit and with fire" ( Matt 3:11 ; cf. Luke 3:16 ), a promise that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Then "tongues of fire" rested upon those gathered in the upper room with the result that they "were filled with the Holy Spirit" ( Acts 2:3-4 ). The fire here is a manifestation of God"~Fire Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

ClementofA · Dec 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
About "consuming fire"? Does the Bible ever say (specifically) that it's PEOPLE God is destroying? Or....does it imply--as makes sense to me--that He is destroying sin/evil (the "chaff"....the "contaminants")?

"Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe For our God is a consuming fire.~Hebrews 12:29

"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."~1 Corinthians 3:15

Edited to change "consuming" to "destroying".

2 Thess.1:9 speaks of their "destruction", though some translations read "extermination", "ruin", etc

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (The New Testament: A Translation, 2017, Yale University Press).

The Greek word for "ruin" (2 Th.1:9) is the same for "destruction" in 1 Cor.5 & refers to the flesh being destroyed, not the person, for the purpose of salvation:

4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

mkgal1 · Dec 24, 2017

Something I found interesting on 2 Thess 1:9:

Ask yourself this question: Where in the world did the idea of being “shut out” or “excluded from the presence of the Lord” come from? Certainly not from the Greek text. If you have any doubt about this, compare II Thessalonians 1:9 with another text whose relevant grammar and phraseology is identical to it, namely Acts 3:19: “Repent therefore, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.” A literal translation of both texts would include the expression “from the presence of the Lord.” So let us suppose that I should translate Acts 3:19 as follows: “…so that refreshing times might come and shut you out or exclude you from the presence of the Lord.” That in essence is what some translators have done to II Thessalonians 1:9. It is just that bad.

The sole reason some translators have for injecting into the text the idea of being shut out or excluded from the presence of the Lord is that the Greek “apo,” like the English “from,” can sometimes mean “away from.” As Leon Morris has pointed out, “This is certainly the meaning . . . in Isa. 2:10,” where we read: “Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust from the terror of the Lord, and from the glory of his majesty.” It is also the meaning in Revelation 6:16, where the Kings of the earth and others cry out to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb . . ..” But in these texts, the verbs “to hide” and “to conceal” determine the correct translation. When we try to hide or to conceal ourselves from the presence of the Lord--an impossible task--we are indeed trying to get away from that presence. In the context of II Thessalonians 1:9, however, we find no relevant verb, such as “to hide” or “to conceal,” no relevant subject of the action, and no other grammatical device that would entitle us to translate “apo” as “away from”; and in the absence of any such grammatical device, the result of such a translation is simply grammatical nonsense.~II Thessalonians 1:8-9

mkgal1 · Dec 24, 2017

I just realized that I posted this in a different thread than intended :/

ClementofA · Dec 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Something I found interesting on 2 Thess 1:9:

Good post, mkgal,

The quote you shared recalls something i read from Tom Talbott in this thread:

II Thessalonians 1:8-9

Which coincidentally i just posted in before coming here.

mkgal1 · Dec 24, 2017

ClementofA said:
Good post, mkgal,

The quote you shared recalls something i read from Tom Talbott in this thread:

II Thessalonians 1:8-9

Which coincidentally i just posted in before coming here.

That's the same source. How funny you'd just posted a comment there.

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
From Adam and Eve's time till Christ was ministering how were people saved? Not to many people debate for instance Adam and Eve's salvation. Or Abraham or King Saul, or King David. But just how were they saved when Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? When Jesus was ministering people how were they saved? By believing that he was the Messiah? Were people saved before Jesus was born by believing in the messiah? Was it their works? Their sacrifices to God? Believing in the one true God? Keeping the ten commandments and the law? Just how were Jews saved before they rejected their Messiah? I'm confused.

a clue is when Jesus said

Matthew 5:6
"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

God's righteousness saved us not our own. Paul said

" But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"(Romans 3:21,22 KJV)

This is not the righteousness of the law, but the righteousness of faith Romans 10).

John also said

"9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9 KJV)

This Light is Christ, the seed sown, the word of God sown in the heart. The truth that men hold in them (Romans 1:18,19 KJV). This inward mystery is how God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to the gospel.

The mystery that hath been hid in ld times was always Christ in you the hope of glory/

When men feel after God they will find him not far from them and that which may be known of God is manifest in them. When men love the Light they come to the light and if they hate the light they will be condemned. This Light is Gods word and life and truth working in the hearts in mystery. Jesus Christ come in the flesh died on the cross to purchase this free gift for all men and God was able to give this word, seed, life truth Light to all in the past based on what Jesus would do in the future.

Here are just a few verses to help with this massive discussion and deep study

"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."( Acts 17"23-27 KJV)

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."(John 3:19-21 KJV)

John 12:36
"While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."

"... If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"( Matthew 6:23 KJV)

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."(Romans 1:18,19 KJV)

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."(Romans 5:18)

"Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."(Psalms 51:6-12 KJV)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word...12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."( John 17"5,12 KJV) Spoken of before the cross.

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."( Acts 10:34,35 KJV)

etc etc etc

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2017

Monk Brendan said:
They weren't.

It wasn't until Jesus died, and descended to hell, and preached the Gospel there that anyone had a chance to BE saved.

not true we read,

Luke 19:9
"And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word...12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."( John 17"5,12 KJV) Spoken of before the cross.They also belonged to the Father even before they were given to Jesus.

"Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."(Psalms 51:6-12 KJV)

Peter and others were also born again before the cross ( though not without the cross in time as all OT saints needed)

we see this clearly here

Matthew 16:16
"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

compare this with

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."(1 John 5:1 KJV)

and

"15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."(1 John 4:15 KJV)

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Isn't it a story that Jesus descended into hell and saved those who went there? I heard something along those lines. But what made a person worth saving? What saved people in OT times?

all are saved by grace through faith of all times

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2017

Albion said:
Nothing in scripture teaches that they will be saved. It could be that God has something in mind for them, but we cannot assert that he does or what that might be, no matter what rationalization we use.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."(Romans 2:14-16 KJV)

"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."( Acts 17"23-27 KJV)

John 1:9 also with Romans 1:18,19 KJV only here

msortwell · Dec 24, 2017

Hillsage said:
. . . And as for faith being part of salvation from the beginning, I'll disagree also. Especially since one can't even find the word 'faith' in multiple translations until thousands of years after the garden, and possibly not until Moses. So I think our 'present' theology positions, of what happened way back, is based upon too much assumption which really is just coming from what we never even learned or heard of, until the New Testament, thousands of years after the garden.

In all honesty, I doubt that even Luther would have ever come up with his theological correlation with Genesis 3:15 if he ddin't have the NT scriptures to help.

That's just my thoughts on it anyway.

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. KJV

Romans 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness
KJV

Genesis 15:6
6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. KJV

Perhaps we would not see that faith has always been the means by which men have been deemed righteous by God, without the helps and clarification provided in the Newer Testament. But, with that help, it becomes very evident.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 24, 2017

Hillsage said:
Please share a free will scripture and we'll discuss it. I'm not of the persuasion that God is a Theist and not a Deist.

Genesis 2:16,17
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Before Jesus came to the world how were people saved?

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